Input Solutions for Repetitive Stress Victims? 415
simiproject asks: "I provide IT consulting for a 30-person organization. Recently, I have been trying to find an acceptable keyboard/mouse solution for a staff member who experiences sharp pains in her thumb, hand and arm when using her mouse. She had been using one of those 3M joystick mice and felt it only made her situation worse since it required even more extension of her thumb. Holding a pen or stylus won't work since that requires gripping. I switched her to a trackball mouse and that helped a little but not much. However, trying to find a solution that doesn't require using the thumb is like shopping in a bizarro world where we just didn't evolve with that opposing digit. I'd be interested in what practical input solutions Slashdot has for a computer user with limited hand mobility. Voice recognition? Laptop-like touch pads (I've looked but haven't found any)?"
Uniqueness limits solutions. (Score:3, Interesting)
Long story short....He had to relearn how he used his mouse to avoid problems.
It came to this because quite frankly no one designed something to suit his individual finger mobilty limit, mainly due to the fact that just about everyone in this situation is unique, each having their own limits, tonerances, and ability.
Re:Uniqueness limits solutions. (Score:2)
ttyl
Farrell
Re:Uniqueness limits solutions. (Score:2)
You should just hope that no-one takes the same robust attitute to you, the next time you experience a problem.
Re:Uniqueness limits solutions. (Score:4, Informative)
simple, but aggrivating (Score:5, Informative)
She could go for the reflective dot on the forhead and webcam tracking software, but this was too geeky even for me. Check her Star Trek quotient before impelmenting.
Mod parent up (Score:2)
I switched my mousing to my left hand a few weeks ago, and it was quite simple (much simpler than, say, switching the keyboard to dvorak, which I'm also doing). You get used to it quickly, and gain insight into the difficulties computer newbies face. Frustrated that your mom can't seem to even use the mouse? Use your mouse left-handed for a while. THAT is what it's like to be learning it for the first time.
As for FPS, don't give up on them. ^_^ What bet
Re:Mod parent up (Score:3, Funny)
Is that what you call it?
Re:simple, but aggrivating (Score:2)
Yes, I switched mousing hands too, to deal with shoulder pain in my mousing arm -- I even blogged about it [neolefty.org] (that counts as modern because I'm over 30).
Man was it hard though -- it took about two weeks to feel reasonably comfortable. But it really worked.
Otherwise, how about one o' them ThinkPad keyboards [ibm.com] with a little red nubby thing plus a trackpad?
I did that once... (Score:2)
"No Problem," I thought, "I have two index fingers. I'll just switch to using my left hand to operate the pointing device."
Before long, I had shooting pains up & down my left forearm too. Brilliant.
(modern osteopathic technique [osteohome.com] is the greatest. Pay special attention to the page on vision. See this tree of my
Alternative to switching hands (Score:4, Interesting)
Seriously. Get a Smart Joy [lik-sang.com] adapter and a Reload Pedal [redoctane.com], and remap the joystick input to mouse click... though you may have to unscrew the top and cut the spring in half for easier clicking, like I did. Alternatively, get a mouse with very large buttons, remove the trackball / tape over the sensor, and leave it on the floor as a secondary mouse. Both sets of clicks will register.
The key to RSI, is to not find one "optimal" solution. Switch keyboards and mice throughout the day. Change your position completely. Walk over and talk to someone about a spec they had written. Put your feet up. Take your feet down. Really, the reason we get RSI is because we do one thing repeatedly. No matter how ergonomic that one sitting position or wrist angle may be, if you stay fixed in that position eventually your ligaments and joints will break down. Change position, take coffee breaks, mouse lefty for a little, turn your body to the side... anything to keep from falling into the trap of the one perfect body position.
Re:simple, but aggrivating (Score:2)
However one question bothers me, won't at some point the left arm become just as sore?
I already noticed, when i use my left arm heavily to relieve the strain on my right arm that my left arm is showing more signs of (very light admitedly) some soreness too
Use Dasher! (Score:2)
No, I'm not affiliated with the project in any way, I only had my nose poked at it by a friend. And I must say, it's impressive. And it is FOSS.
Use a stylus without gripping it....? (Score:2)
How? (Score:5, Informative)
Fixed mine within 1 week. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Fixed mine within 1 week. (Score:2, Informative)
That whole process kn
Links for trackpads (Score:5, Informative)
adesso [adesso.com]
Just the first two found from a googling. Trackpad or touchscreen would seem the obvious solutions to me.cirque [cirque.com]
Re:Links for trackpads (Score:2)
I've now got two lovely ones, with a nice central touchpad, but in the UK they can be rather hard to track down
Marble Mouse (Score:5, Informative)
Logitech makes a sort of trackball they call a "marble mouse". Perhaps it's the kind you've already tried, but I thought it was worth a mention. You can see some info from their site [logitech.com]. The bottom line it that it's a trackball that you operate with your index (and/or middle) finger rather than your thumb (as is traditional). I still use my thumb to click buttons, but it's a lot less work. If that's an issue, you can probably configure the computer to reverse left and right clicks, which would make the action even less frequent. I found it a bit akward to use at first, but I got used to it pretty quickly.
Re:Marble Mouse (Score:2)
Re:Marble Mouse (Score:3, Informative)
The third kind is the clas
Re:Marble Mouse (Score:2)
As a bonus to the original poster, the buttons a
Keyboards (Score:2, Informative)
Here's what I use and as a sufferer of RSS, I highly recommend the Goldtouch keyboards
http://www.sforh.com/keyboards/split.html [sforh.com]
I use one with my laptop and it is great. I have also had some luck with,
1) icing my wrists as there seems to be swelling,
2) having a chiropractor adjust the vertebrae between my shoulder blades as they tend to get screwed up by the leaning/hunching over as my RSS is in both hands a
Re:Keyboards (Score:2)
Put the mouse on the floor (Score:5, Insightful)
On the whole, though, this is a very tricky issue. A friend of mine has really bad repeat stress injury and there's no easy way to "fix" it. The way to get better is to cease doing the activity that messed you up to begin with. In this modern world it seems a little inconceivable that you'd go without using a computer -- perhaps for years -- but that might be what it takes. Lousy, but would he rather stay injured the rest of hia life?
Re:Put the mouse on the floor (Score:3, Interesting)
I guess everyones experience would be a little diferent but here is mine and what i did to stop it. After long hours at the computer i started noticing sharp pains in my wriste and fingertips with it mostly concentrating in my thumb. I though Carpel tunnel but the doctors said nope. i started noticing that elevating the mouse pad and sitting differently in my chair helped to some degree. I also noticed if i combine this with stretching ev
Re:Put the mouse on the floor (Score:3, Interesting)
Something else a lot of people don't understand is that the word "ergonomic," as it's applied to office furn
USB Touchpad? (Score:2, Informative)
Gyroscopic Mouse (Score:2)
The TouchStream keyboard/trackpad combos look pretty sweet if you ask me; back when they were in production I thought I might get one. But they weree horrendiously expensive, and are even more so now because they aren't made anymore. Ebay has a couple, but not for under
Data Hand? (Score:2)
How 'bout switching her mouse to the other hand?? (Score:2)
I've been victimized! (Score:4, Funny)
carpaltunnelfix.com ?? (Score:2)
Ideas (Score:2)
Obviously... (Score:2)
Buy a symmetrical 5-button mouse (like the excellent MS "Intellimouse Optical") and put it on the left side of her desk, with a cloth-topped neoprene mouse pad.
Sure, she'll bitch and moan. She'll say she can't do anything left-handed, but within a week she will be at 75%, and after a month she'll be at 95% of her right hand's abilities.
I had the same issue, and tried a bunch of different setups before finally admitting I simply had to gi
Very good advice (Score:2)
Better to get just the basic Microsoft or Logitech optical wheel mouse. (something
You are correct, it sounds dumb. (Score:2)
Try the following in a moment of idleness: start tapping on a table with your right hand, one finger at the timee from thumb to pinky and back.
Try synchronizing that movement with your left hand, first using the same finger at the same time. Compare that to synchornizing fingers according to their position (i.e. b
touch screens (Score:2)
Trackpad (Score:2)
I've bought a few for small office server closet type situations in the past and they work fairly well.
Instead of looking in the mice section at Newegg/ajump/whoever, look in the keyboard section instead.
Just a joke! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Just a joke! (Score:2)
That's what I was thinking, but I was afraid I'm just being a bit insensitive. Perhaps she does have a real issue, but it could be due to not using the mouse properly or something. I use the computer all day and I never experience any kind of fatigue or stress from using the mouse. I don't even see how it could possibly strain your hand--you don't use your thumb on a standard 3-button scrollwheel mouse. Perhaps she's gripping too hard? I play a fair amount of games, and use photoshop, illustrator, quarkxpre
Trackpoint (Score:2)
The only motion required from a normal home-row typing position is to move your right or left index finger over about 2cm, and the thumbs don't have to be moved, as they naturally rest on the left and right mouse buttons, respectively.
This is very low stress, and the keyboards tend to be good quality. I use this with my IBM laptop for usually upwards of 12 h
Re:Trackpoint (Score:2)
Vertical mouse (Score:3, Informative)
Touch Pads... (Score:3, Informative)
Well, first link under the google search "touchpad mouse" found this: http://www.askergoworks.com/shopdisplayproducts.a
The google ad supplied link was this: http://www.google.com/url?sa=L&ai=BQGSCbw63RKr6EJ
So you can see, just using the right search term comes up with several. I know I have owned one that looks exactly like the "Easy Cat II" (it may have been the original since I have had it since 1994).
Solution=Kinesis Keyboard+BodyBilt chair+ErgoClick (Score:2, Informative)
What's kept my RSI problems at bay for the last 13 years is the Kinesis Contoured Keyboard [kinesis-ergo.com] and a BodyBilt chair with linear tracking arms [backbenimble.com]. I cannot recommend these highly enough. They have saved me from being in terrible agony every day.
The chair is rather expensive, but certainly much cheaper than either going on disability or a Vicodin addiction. The Kinesis keyboard takes a
Treating the Hands? (Score:2)
Paraffin(sp?) wax app
Is she holding the mouse properly? (Score:5, Informative)
Instead of just looking at the mouse, I'd suggest looking at her complete desk/chair/keyboard setup. Starting at the bottom and working your way up.
Chair
Her chair should be such that her feet comfortably touch the ground when the knees are bent at about 90 (ie. not dangling and not cramped backwards/stretched forward) and her back is straight and comfortably supported. This should then put her elbows at about level of the desk surface.
Desk
Get her to place her hands on the keyboard with her shoulders relaxed and her forearms should be able to rest along the desk surface (alot of people have their keyboard too close cramping up their shoulders and causing the elbows to stick out and wrists to be twisted... move the keyboard back towards the monitor until its at a good comfortable length). Do the same for the mouse and get her to hold it.
Mouse
Since her arm is now relaxed and stretched out, the base of the mouse should rest under the palm of the hand, with the base of the palm resting on the mousepad, so the fingers naturally stretch forward over the buttons. Alot of people hold mice incorrectly from above and then move it with their wrist. The wrist shouldn't actually move much (it wiggles a bit) but most of the movement actually coming from small movements of the elbow/shoulder (which translate to larger movements of the forearm which transfer through the base of the palm to the mouse - basically her watch should move in sync with the mouse and not sit still).
Once all this is done and correct then you can check if the mouse if comfortable or not (I had one mouse which was too tall (meant for a bigger hand or just bad design) and I noticed the effect after a week as my wrist was tilted back just a fraction too much).
Re:Is she holding the mouse properly? (Score:2)
Logitech Mice (Score:2)
Posture and Operation (Score:2)
My desk at home is rather high, so I had to get a higher chair to pull this off. I found it to be more natural, but only after getting one of those spiffy Loogie-tek MX1000 LAZAR RF mice. One has to move the mouse from the shoulder, or the elbow, not the wrist or forearm. My constant use of this little prick (mouse) led me to handling the mouse closer to my left forearm (if my left hand were to rest on the keyboard, my right
Stand up workstation problems (Score:2)
ALWAYS ALWAYS remember: Ergonomics is individual!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Bottom line here folks is that what works for you might not work for me. Your ideal mouse isn't mine. Your wrist problems might in fact be caused by the same thing as my back problems and buddy's thumb problems, with the only difference being in how we've adapted to a flawed situation. Alternatively, what caused your thumb problem (and hence what fixed it) might not be even remotely related to what caused my nearly-identical thumb problem, and so the same fix might not work.
The best advice you can get is to start with a standard configuration, identify the problem, and then explore as many potential fixes until you find the one that works. This is not an exact science! There are no single, deterministic solutions to each problem!
So in short, consider every solution offered with a grain of salt--but do consider it.
Limiting use is the key (Score:2)
Evolient Mouse [evoluent.com]
Wow, that was overkill. (Score:3, Funny)
IBM Ultra Nav, Sony VAIO, and other Keyboards (Score:2)
All three of these products have a touchpad controller, and has notebook style keys.
It seems for people with pains in their arms/wrists, a full-stroke regular keyboard may be painful to type on.
Sony VAIO keyboard [amazon.com]
IBM Keyboard with UltraNav [amazon.com]
Adesso keyboard [amazon.com]
Mousekeys (Score:4, Interesting)
Here is a link to Microsofts description of how to turn them on:
http://www.microsoft.com/enable/training/windowsx
and a nice tutorial on what keys do what and tweaks:
http://www.disability.uiuc.edu/infotechaccess/tra
logitech trackball (Score:2)
just a suggestion
if not that, send her to the gym to see a professional
Call me crazy but... (Score:2, Insightful)
2) book some quality time with an Occupational Therapist.
I favour the latter. I believe that this person is going to continue to have these problems no matter what pointer she uses until the actual problem (which IMO has nothing to do with using a mouse per se) is fixed. An OT can look at the way she positions her wrist, arm and shoulder as well as checking many other variables. The thumb is the kicker. When I use a mouse my thumb rests lightly against the side of the mouse and only
you mention trackball... (Score:2)
I can imagine why a thumb-based trackball solution would make her situation worse.
The best trackball I've used is the MS Trackball Explorer. It's just one of the best.
That trackball uses a ball that's about 2 1/2" in diameter under the index and middle fingers, and has two buttons on the right side for your ring finger and pinky, along with a 2 button + scroll wheel combo on the left side. Sure, the thumb is now responsible for the left click, but with the MS software you can swap those assign
If Cash isnt a problem..... (Score:2, Informative)
Not the answer... (Score:2, Funny)
While I doubt it would be all that useful, it would definately be cool.
-Qyiet
Re:Not the answer... (Score:2)
(The Theremin makes a monotonal sound of varying pitch, so one axis it is)
Victims? (Score:2, Insightful)
Give me a break.
I suppose you're probably going to sue Dell, huh?
Everyone's a victim these days, it seems.
Head tracker may be a good solution (Score:2)
The lazy man's way (Score:2)
Tilt the trackball (Score:2)
The idea (assuming a right-hander) is to raise the left-hand edge of the thumb trackball until the top of the ball is about 80mm or 3 inches above the desk. The exact height depends on the size of the user's hand, but the gen
Hoverstop (Score:2, Interesting)
try a trackpad (Score:2)
Excercise (Score:2, Insightful)
Got RSI, remember this... (Score:2)
It's _repetitive_ strain. It's soft tissue injury caused by using your wrists too much. Without changing the mouse/keyboard I have (I've tried many different types - rollerball, pen, touch pad, etc. ) I found it comes down to rest and little more.
You must have breaks, and you must consciously relax your wrists.
Also remember that your time on computer at home hurts you too; so does _any_ other wrist related act
My solution? Alternate input devices (Score:2)
I visited a doctor years ago regarding the same problem - except the pain would sometimes extend up my arm to the elbow. Bad news. It effected fly fishing and would sometimes hurt making a left hand turn in the car. Sometimes a hard cover book would be too much weight for my hand.
I started alternating devices and heights of the device. The following has kept me doctor and pain free for six years now:
Lack of Other Excercise... (Score:3, Insightful)
If a physical therapist can recommend and watch over some other forms of excercise, you can start to balance out and strengthen other muscles and possibly attentuate or eliminate the problems. It did work for me, though I realize if it gets bad enough that it is difficult to get over.
Stop What Hurts and Change Out Often (Score:4, Informative)
First off, she should listen to her body. If something hurts, stop doing it. This is the fair warning that her body is giving her. She can take breaks-- walk once around the building, refill her water glass, stretch in place, shake her hands. Use a timer in Outlook that goes off every twenty minutes at first until the symptoms show continued improvement.
Second, she should avoid Repetive Motions as much as possible. Break the habit. Mix things up frequently.
* Switch mousing hands regularly.
* Always rest hands in the lap.
* Adjust or fix the lighting. (reduces muscle tension and eye strain)
* Adjust the monitor height.
* Switch out the effing keyboard for something without an attached number pad.
* Get a keyboard that is the right size for her body frame.
* Attach multiple mice to her system for instant switching.
* Get an adjustable keyboard tray.
* Learn and use keyboard shortcuts.
* Change positions several times a day.
* Get an adjustable monitor stand. (and replace the monster CRT with an LCD)
* Automate her crap work.
Touchpad mice let her use her thumb, pinky, palm, even her knuckles if her hand is being too sensitive. It's easy enough to attach both a touchpad and a normal (but ergonomic) mouse to the system so that she can switch between them according to the action/gesture and what her hand is feeling that moment.
I'm pissed that I missed the boat on the Touchstream keyboard/mice/touchpads [fingerworks.com], but the TypeMatrix keyboards [typematrix.com] are a great second-place winner. The keyboards come in a small and large size, with the small one suitable for most people. They also fit correct posture more naturally, by getting rid of the oh-so-stupid staggered key layout, and by separating the left and right sizes a little, and adding extra enter/backspace keys in the center for good measure.
I got one for someone at our work with chronic pain, and she had no problem adjusting to the new layout in hours. Her condition has improved a lot, and she credits the keyboard and better lighting. (I tried to get her to use a touchpad mouse, but it completely ignored her touch.)
At my desk, I have the TypeMatrix keyboard, a regular mouse for precision-work, and a Cirque touchpad [cirque.com] for normal mousing. (The touchpad is 9 years old, and still works great.) I put a large box on the side table so that I can also stand and use my personal laptop for the 40% of my work that is internet crap and web-development. When I'm web browsing (er, researching), I can actually kick back in my chair, and do everything just with the touchpad. Change positions!
(I have considered the Kenesis split keyboard [multipart-mixed.com] but it was too big and pricey for me at the time. I call it a fine third choice.)
The Nomus (Score:2, Interesting)
I hate it, but she loves it and says it relieves her neck, arm and hand pains.
Touchstream is perfect (Score:2)
The Fingerworks Touchstream keyboard is ideal... it's a combined keyboad/mouse built from two touchpads, and uses 'multi-touch' technology for gestures and mousing. So for mousing you touch two fingers on the right-hand pad, to click you touch a third finger. It's also highly configurable, and great for RSI because there's no force involved in typing and there's no repetitive switching from keyboard to mouse.
Sadly they don't make them any more, so the only way to get one is second-hand. They turn up on eb
have rsi since 1999 (Score:2)
also guitar playing has helped to strenghten my wrists.
Fingerworks (Score:2)
Foot pedals and eye-control (Score:3, Informative)
Fentek Industries [fentek-ind.com]
Kinesis Corporation [kinesis-ergo.com]
AbilityHub [abilityhub.com]
Solutions for Humans [sforh.com]
Buy a book (Score:4, Informative)
Specifically, this one [amazon.com]
I used to spend 8 hours a day sitting on my specially-ordered ergonomic chair, tapping away at my ergonomic keybaord, wearing wrist supports, popping pain killers, and contemplating quitting my job because I had RSI in both wrists so badly my hands actually burned with pain. I started the excercises listed for wrist pain in that book one weekend, and when I came back to work on Monday, I chucked my wrist supports into my desk drawer, along with my painkillers, and never used them again. The chair went back to the suppliers a few days later.
RSI is *not* caused by too much movement - the body exists for no other purpose than movement, and it was "designed" for a hell of a lot more movement than we give it by sitting in chairs all day. The cause of RSI is *bad* movement: Movement in a bad posture, using the wrong muscle groups, etc. A primary cause of my burning hands was that I typed with my hands bent back so the tendons in my forearm were scraping over the bones, rubbing them raw: sitting up straighter so my hands naturally bent forward/downward eliminated 90% of my pain overnight.
The problem is with the body, not the office equipment. So don't waste your money on a new mouse: Fix the real problem.
P.S. (Score:2)
Laptop + Home (Score:2)
where'd you look (Score:2)
Where'd you look? Google provided about 656,000 results [google.com].
These trackpads have been pretty openly available for the past many years. Just in case google is down, here's a direct link to a seller [safecomputing.com].
Don't focus on the mouse (Score:4, Interesting)
I had huge problems with my wrists, for years. I finally went to work for a company big enough to have an ergonomics specialist. When I mentioned it to my boss, he immediately called her, and she came to my office to assess the situation. After a *long* lecture about posture, she took away all my so-called ergonomic gear. She then had the facilities guys come install a height-adjustable keyboard tray and bring me a new chair (Aeron, w00t!). Once everything was adjusted, the problem pretty quickly went away on its own. The only thing that I do now that's exceptional is that I use a trackpoint keyboard at home (from http://pckeyboards.com/ [pckeyboards.com]).
Re:Don't focus on the mouse (Score:2)
Tools that have helped me with RSI (Score:4, Informative)
I have been suffering from RSI for about a year now and found some things that help.
Voice control software. I use ViaVoice myself. It is a real pain to train, but once done it is very good for emails, documents and the like. Probably too unwieldy for a total replacement, but it can reduce the typing load.
RSIGuard [rsiguard.com] a handy program that forces you to take breaks based on how much you have used the mouse or keyboard. Simple idea, but it is so easy to forget to take breaks.
Aerobic Mouse [aerobicmouse.com] or Quill Mouse. If gripping a pointing device is the problem this is great. Its like a vertical mouse and your hand sits in a tray on the side of it. You can move it around and keep the hand relaxed.
Wacom drawing tablet? (Score:4, Informative)
For further reading:
Been there, done that, have Xrays to prove it (Score:5, Informative)
She needs to see an orthopedic surgeon NOW!!!!!!
I have the same problem: changing hands is initially awkward, but it helps.
Check her posture ... any reaching forward aggravates the tendons. Ergonomics must be perfect.
A keyboard with integrated touchpad would allow her to use fingertips instead of thumb ... might help.
She needs to REST NOW or this can turn into a permenent problem! And a wrist splint that immobilizes the thumb (the low-cost equivalent is to tape the thumb to the hand). Wearing wrist braces as much as possible
Taking painkillers is counterproductive unless you take painkillers AND rest ... painkillers without rest allows you to continue damaging the tendons and by the time the damage is so great the painkillers don't work, the tendons might be beyond recovery.
Re:The answer is Foot Mouse (Score:5, Informative)
Re:The answer is Foot Mouse (Score:2, Insightful)
|>oug
Re:The answer is Foot Mouse (Score:3, Funny)
The real solution [tylenol.com].
Dr it hurts when I do this ... (Score:3, Interesting)
Doctor : Well don't do that.
It's a joke, but in all honestly it isn't a joke. If you have RSI, how about stop looking for less painful ways to continue to aggravate it and take some time off. Completely off - I'm not talking about staying home and playing on the computer for 10 hours a day (EverCrack monkeys - yea I am looking at you.) I mean off the keyboard. The company I work for gives us four weeks off per year and they damn well expect us to use it - it isn'
Re:My experience (Score:2)
Re:Joy2Mouse (Score:2)
If all else fails, she could use MouseKeys, using the numpad to move the mouse.
Re:finger mouse (Score:2)
As an experiment, I've spent the last ten minutes or so using my 3-button mouse without my thumb. It was awkward for the first thirty seconds or so...and then it wasn't. Then I changed again to try using just my last three fingers - pinky, ring and middle fingers only. That took a little longer, but after a minute it wasn't really a problem.
Why is a normal mouse a problem? It's got three buttons, and a normal person has five digits - and all of them can function independantly.
Get
Re:finger mouse (Score:3, Interesting)
Phil
Re:Simple Solution (Score:2)
The only downside is dealing with stupid programs that use left-right scroll for something other than scrolling. (Some web browsers use it for forward/back - I think Firefox might. But it's configurable.) The problem is that it'
Re:Simple Solution (Score:2)
That sounds usefull, could you emplain what/where you configured to get that behaviour?
Re:Synaptics touchpad - the best input device ever (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Synaptics touchpad - the best input device ever (Score:3, Insightful)