Dell Chastized Over Customer Service 169
The Register is reporting that Dell recently agreed to give into demands from the UK's Office of Fair Trading and alter the agreements that accompany their hardware. From the article: "The OFT has spent the past few months sparring with Dell over the company's terms and conditions. The two organizations recently agreed to settle their issues with Dell changing contracts and making them "fairer to consumers," the OFT said. The specific changes, however, remain secret as neither the OFT nor Dell will reveal exact terms and conditions alterations and as Dell has kept old contracts online."
hm... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:hm... (Score:5, Informative)
# limited liability for negligence to the price of the product
If you agree a price and they accept then they can't later alter this so I fail to see too many problems
# excluded liability for consequential loss arising out of breach of contract
This might need looking at although I can't imagine too much which could go wrong, if the product isn't of a merchandisable quality then you can get your money back anyway (because of the statutory rights) - there are also rights to protect you from misleading advertising - if they fail to deliver then you can simply get your money back without too much trouble.
# excluded liability for oral representations not confirmed in writing, and
No contract is worth anything if it is not in writing so I can't see how this is a problem
# required the consumer to notify Dell of any errors in its confirmation of the consumer's order immediately
You'd expect this anyway, if they refuse to help then cancel because it is within your cooling off period
- this all seems like it could be solved fairly easily anyway... you can't sign away statutory rights so consumers are safe as far as I can see...
Re:hm... (Score:2)
Gah, this simply isn't true, although oft-repeated; "a verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's printed on" and other witticisms aside, if, in the development of a contractual agreement (which doesn't have to be written in the first place, of course), one party makes representations that are taken and are relied upon by the other party as part of
Re:hm... (Score:2)
Another example is online loans, which many banks are starting to do 'instantly' - again theres no contract
Re:hm... (Score:3, Funny)
In the UK, I believe it is customary to spell the company name as Delle.
--
Realtime onscreen spell
checker provided by RC1
of Firefox version 2.0
Duelle (Score:2)
Re:hm... (Score:5, Informative)
If you agree a price and they accept then they can't later alter this so I fail to see too many problems
Your Dell laptop explodes due to a faulty lithium ion battery and burns down your house. Dell's liability is limited to the price of the laptop. I see a problem.
# excluded liability for consequential loss arising out of breach of contract
This might need looking at although I can't imagine too much which could go wrong, if the product isn't of a merchandisable quality then you can get your money back anyway (because of the statutory rights) - there are also rights to protect you from misleading advertising - if they fail to deliver then you can simply get your money back without too much trouble.
Consequential damages may be but are not necessarily related to warranties of merchantability and/or truth in advertising. Dell sells you 50 rack mount servers for a video production project that starts on 8/7/2006 and promises a delivery date of 8/1/2006. Dell fails to deliver the servers until two months after the delivery date. You've lost 7 weeks of production time. Those weeks of delay may be compensable as consequential damages.
# excluded liability for oral representations not confirmed in writing, and
No contract is worth anything if it is not in writing so I can't see how this is a problem.
The Statute of Frauds says otherwise. The common law says otherwise. There are plenty of ways to prove the existence of a contract that do not rely on a signed writing. I find it odd that you believe that Dell can make such representations and simultaneously protect itself from liability for making them.
# required the consumer to notify Dell of any errors in its confirmation of the consumer's order immediately
You'd expect this anyway, if they refuse to help then cancel because it is within your cooling off period
I would not expect this at all. The consumer makes an offer for a specified piece of equipment. Dell purports to accept the offer but specifies different equipment. Under the law of contracts the consumer is not obligated to do anything because Dell has failed to accept the original offer, and in fact made a counteroffer (mirror image rule). The professional sales organization shifts the effort required to catch and correct errors onto the consumer. You believe that this is equitable?
Four strikes. You're out.
Re:hm... (Score:2)
YMMV but whatever stories get posted here, we got burnt and don't want to associate with that company again. If I were interviewing for a job and they used Dells, I might ask how they find the support service, but I couldn't accept the job if offered. Nightmare!
Re:hm... (Score:4, Informative)
We're an odd little place and like everyone to play fair no matter what, not just assume the cheats will get theirs via the customers.
Hello? Mr. Nineties, you say? First name Nineteen? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Hello? Mr. Nineties, you say? First name Ninete (Score:2)
Possibly not.
Do you mind if I put you on hold? (Score:2)
Re:hm... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:hm... (Score:2)
Ahhh! (Score:3, Funny)
Now I know why I've seen comments posted on the Internet that read:
Re:hm... (Score:2)
Re:hm... (Score:2)
Also it makes no damn difference to anyone. Only the towns have cameras, where you're already being watched by 20-50 people at a time. In the country side I've never seen a single camera. It's not like we have midgets hanging from trees with cameras going "psst, we're watching".
I don't doubt the US would be exactly the same if you didn't have to drive every where and they can just film the junctions at roads instead.
Also just bec
Re:hm... (Score:2)
You may have noticed a surprising lack of "Voltaires" in the world these days. The only person someone can count on to defend his speech is himself, and as much from the others who SHOULD be defending it as from the governement.
Voltaire's quote is idealistic and noble. Joe 155's is realistic and pragmatic.
Leveling the field (Score:5, Insightful)
I think corporations should be punished heavily when they try to get away with abusive practices to trim down the ammount of users that get abused and also to be fair to the corporations who really do make an effort in being fair.
Re:Leveling the field (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Leveling the field (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Leveling the field (Score:2)
How long ago did this happen? I know that for a while I heard Dell support was horrible but I am pretty sure they cleaned back up. I was the network admin for my fraternity about 4 years ago and we had all Dells and whenever we had a problem someone would be ther
Re:Leveling the field (Score:2)
I also have one more current experience which happened last year. I ordered an Infocus SP4805 projector (for personal use) through Dell and after hooking it up there was ONE pixel that was always white. I talked again to someone through the online support and within 2 days I had a new projector which worked perfectly and all I had to do was put the old projector in the box and send it back.
Re:Leveling the field (Score:3, Informative)
As it turns out though, the way they handle stuff like that is quite sketchy, if not illeal. They charged my (well, my dad's,
Re:Leveling the field (Score:3, Insightful)
I called called from work and explained I didn't have the system in front of me. I explained what I had done to ascertain the drive was the problem. Gave the the smart drive error code and that was it. They sent out a new drive, along with all the CD's for OS and drivers/software (sister lost these).
My experience has been that even when support is dec
Re:Leveling the field (Score:2)
I know this, that was why I mentioned the following:
I have had similar service with home computers as well so I don't believe its an issue with business accounts versus home accounts.
I have heard that business accounts are treated much better, I have just NEVER experienced it myself (and I have a l
Re:Leveling the field (Score:2)
Re:Leveling the field (Score:3, Insightful)
If you don't like their customer service, don't buy their products. The market will decide whether good customer service is worth the extra cost.
Re:Leveling the field (Score:2)
What if you're the first to be affected by unfair business tactics, will you still say that all is well since the market will punish the company?
Ya, OK Adam Smith (Score:2)
Re:Ya, OK Adam Smith (Score:2)
(I'm not saying that moving towards something that approaches a free market is impossible, I'm just saying there's hu
Hey, budy, we agree already (Score:2)
Market transparency is a good one because it relates directly to the ability of a consumer to educate themselves about product offerings and make a choice. Consumer choice is one of the fundamen
Re:Hey, budy, we agree already (Score:2)
Re:Hey, budy, we agree already (Score:2)
Re:Leveling the field (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh yeah, that's working real well right now. Either the problems aren't made public enough or they are the sort of problems that don't bite you until you've handed your money over. Not everybody has the time or the inclination to do hours of research before every product purchase is made. Caveat Emptor? Sure. Okay. That doesn't mean companies should be give
Re:Leveling the field (Score:4, Insightful)
The market isn't some mystical force. It isn't sentient, and it doesn't make decisions, no matter how we sometimes anthropomorphasize it. It's a semi-rational human construct that behaves predictably - and it cannot magically "correct" itself if the circumstances don't allow it.
For market correction to occur spontainiously, there have to be a least two different choices facing a customer, and he has to have access to accurate information about what advantages and drawbacks each choice offers. If either the customer has no source of accurate information before making a purchasing decision, or if he doesn't have two different choices (two identical choices or only one choice are both possible reasons), then the market doesn't correct.
If you're getting bad support, you've already made a purchase, and the company has gotten your cash. You can avoid them in the future, and tell others to do so as well, but it is entirely possible for a company to get by on one time customers alone. You'd have to know that the company had crappy tech support before you bought their product - and where are you going to get that information? Maybe the only people you know who bought from them never used their tech support. Going online doesn't help either - too much whining one the one hand and too much astroturfing on the other.
And if you do know that company X has crappy support, then you still need a company Y to turn to that is better in this regard. If no such alternative exists (or is feasble for your circumstances), then there is nothing you can do.
Free market capitalism is not a panacea. It's better than the alternatives, granted, but it does have drawbacks - and one of those drawbacks is the damage lack of accurate information and choice can do to customers.
Also, the person you replied to said that misbehaving corporations need to be "punished", right? Isn't that exactly what the free market correcting itself is supposed to be about? Ie, people voting with their wallets, and leaving bad companies in favour of better ones.
Re:Leveling the field (Score:2)
Re:Leveling the field (Score:2)
The issue is not about what I, a computer geek (and therefor in the minority of computer users) can do. Why would I want a Dell machine in the first place? The issue is about what the average user will do.
When Joe Average is depending on call-in support and warranty repair for his prefab box when it breaks, then customer service is an issue. Additionally, customer service is entirely after the fact; you cannot know i
Re:Leveling the field (Score:2)
Kinda hard to tell if the customer service is any good unless you're already a customer. Chicken/egg.
Re:Leveling the field (Score:2)
What you're saying may be true, but "market will decide" is something that may take years-- is this effective?
I bought my car 5 years ago. Back then, I had no idea it was going to develop so many problems. Will I ever buy a Ford again? Probably not-- but it's not a decision I can make until I have enough money to buy a new
Re:Leveling the field (Score:3, Informative)
So what you're saying is, contractual law isn't necessary to police breaches of contract? Interesting.
What Dell is doing is basically breaching EU laws on remote sales, as well as common laws. Customers are entitled to statutory protections and Dell isn't living up to those. This is a problem in a free market, because the playing field is level to everyone, except
Re:Leveling the field (Score:2)
Anecdotal evidence is all well and good, but there's more to the buying process than reading blogs. So you do your research and then buy anyway and THEN find out that the customer support is abysmal, at which point the options are somewhat limited. That's the point, and that's what the OFT is for. So good for them.
I've had mixed experiences with Dell, myself. Support's always been excellent when I finally get it, but on o
Re:Leveling the field (Score:2)
While America may trust the market to iron out problems in the UK we use the law to do it so that people get a fair deal.
Before you comment on our problems maybe you should look at stuff like rebates and other crap like that. In the UK that sort of shit just doesn't stand u
Re:Leveling the field (Score:2)
Re:Leveling the field (Score:2)
Re:Leveling the field (Score:3, Insightful)
No, the fines were the EU saying "look, if you want to play in our field you have to obey our laws."
MS is a monopoly -- I think they have a bigger control over the consumer computer market than Standard Oil had in its day. In the USA, that means that they can't leverage their monopoly to enter other market. (Such as, for example, they can't force Windows u
Re:Leveling the field (Score:2, Interesting)
No, Microsoft will not make any of the concessions, because to do so would destroy their monopoly. Their monopoly depends on their control over the protocols and file formats they use.
But I do agree with you that they won't pay all of the fine. In fact, I don't think they'll pay any of it.
Microsoft believes
Re:Leveling the field (Score:2)
No, not really. Microsoft's monopoly is due to their huge installed base -- because so many are used to using MS's products, not because so many have files in MS's formats.
Don't believe me? Consider this--right now, EVERY monopolistic item that MS has can be read "well enough" by their competitors. And yet, despite the price
Re:Leveling the field (Score:3, Insightful)
You need to substantiate some of this. What specific laws are you thinking of? In my opinion, US laws increasingly support business interests over individual rights, ala DMCA and other restrictive anti-consume
Re:Leveling the field (Score:2)
Re:Leveling the field (Score:2)
You actually said that with a straight face? I'm impressed.
DMCA, Sonny Bono Copyright Extention, Loosening of the telco antitrust regulations (allowing AT&T to slowly rebuild the Ma Bell marshmallow man again), [YOU-]CAN-SPAM...
Laws the in the US aren't written for the benefit of the people, OR the businesses. They're written to benefit lawyers, and it's not
Wayback machine? (Score:4, Insightful)
OK... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:OK... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:OK... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:OK... (Score:2)
Re:OK... (Score:2)
Re:OK... (Score:2)
That was Gateway.
Re:OK... (Score:2)
Whoops! My bad - it was indeed gateway who did the whole "cow" thing.
In my defense, it's hard to remember which crappy computer company is which...
Re:OK... (Score:2)
Like the poor engineering of the Death Star...
oh, wait. Damn those rebels!
SB
Re:OK... (Score:2)
(Seen on a BSOD)
Warning: Reactor core dump caused by Torpedo.exe. Program attempted to access Vent.shaft - shaft firewall failed due to firewall absence/deactivation. The system will shutdown in 10 seconds, any unsaved data and undestroyed planets will be lost/saved. Please contact a Dell customer service representative for details. Error number 517H-5p1T.
Re:OK... (Score:2)
But shouldn't that be a "Gateway" rep?
SB
Re:OK... (Score:2)
Tech Support: "OK it must be EITHER the heat sink OR the mousepad."
Customer: "Only the Sith deal in absolutes!"
Re:OK... (Score:2)
Wouldn't that be Gateway, not Dell, if there were holstein spots?
Re:OK... (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm sure we all have a "Dell sucks" story, here's mine: financed a refurb laptop as a small business. The machine crapped out. Dell tech support is an oxymoron. I refused to pay for a defective unit only to be informed that the financing company owned the debt (Dell Financial) and they were not responsible for the actual product (Dell proper).
When a company is keeping secrets, organizing shelter corps and playing other liability games, it just annoys me. When consumer advocates call va
Re:OK... (Score:2)
Re:OK... (Score:2)
Re:OK... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:OK... (Score:2)
Re:OK... (Score:2)
Bought a couple of 2400s for my kids. One of them had problems with the on-board.
The Broadcomm diagnostics found the problem, but the stock Dell diagnostics wouldn't. Of course, "Brian" from Bangalore (and yes, he was in India) refused to accept the diagnosis, even when an identically configured second machine worked perfectly. Rather than fight them any more, I went out and bought a D-Link card for $10, and dropped it in a PCI slot.
Dell support sucks.
Another non-story (Score:5, Insightful)
We could use some of that in Canada... (Score:4, Informative)
Worse still is their telephone support. I often run across people whose Dell machines have run into problems, and where a clueless telephone support tech has caused them to lose all their machine's data. One client, a tax accountant, lost an extire tax season. I know, I know, backup data - but I think everyone here knows how likely you are to get most users to reliably do so. This is just one of many horror stories.
I would just love it if Dell Canada were forced to take on some accountability for its products. Then perhaps the small business people they have actually hurt would find they had more when fighting with Dell to get a machine they thought was under warranty working again. At least for now, some have found that their only remedy is to sue.
My experience has been the opposite.... (Score:2)
1.) its out of warranty,
2.) no tech manuals exist so I can figure out how to take the darn thing apart and have a look,
3.) they will look at it for 300 bucks,
4.) if its a mobo problem (most likely scenario, it will be 900 bucks to fix it)
I'm afraid I threw a bit of a fit and smashed the laptop against the wall, then kicked it a few times.
"Are you ok?" asks the tech (who I did not yell at), "Yes, that was the sound of me kicking the crap out of th
Re:We could use some of that in Canada... (Score:2)
Scope of OFT's investigation (Score:4, Interesting)
I wonder if OFT is also looking at Dells practice of advertising incredibly cheap computers then trying to convince people who call up to order that they need to pay an extra £100 to upgrade the RAM from 256Mb to 512Mb if they want to use broadband, because this PC they advertised "will only work with dialup". Or trying to upsell to the next model up, because this PC is end of line stock, and will "not work anymore in six months time".
I've Been Happy with Dell (Score:3, Informative)
Their chat system and website for drivers have been especially useful and very efficient.
I've never had to send anything in for warranty repair, so I can't comment on that.
Re:I've Been Happy with Dell (Score:2, Interesting)
I just bought a laptop and other items from Dell (first time buyer from Dell). As is my usual practice, I searched through my computer to verify that it was as ordered.
I found that I had a question over whether I received the sound card that I thought I had ordered. Very simple problem, right? Think again. Three hours later and a couple of clueless but undoubtedly hard working Indian folks later, I finally spoke to someone with a sufficient skill-base t
Re:I've Been Happy with Dell (Score:3, Interesting)
My first laptop was a Dell. I remember when I ordered it, it took a whole 2 weeks for it to arrive. I was eager to recieve it. As a joke, I'd call the receptionist and ask if it had arrived yet. (She was in on the joke and found it funny... well not after the 3rd time...) 3 months later the screen went out. I didn't pay extra for a special warranty or anything, so I wasn't expecting a quick turn around on the repair.
Clause F1R3 (Score:5, Funny)
The last four computers... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:The last four computers... (Score:2)
You got what you paid for. It's a good bet that those Dell boxes were bought because they were cheap (for the listed spec). Dell boxes are cheap because they are made from cheap components and don't last as long as most of the competition
Re:The last four computers... (Score:2)
Also many larger customers have contracts and its harder to switch desktops. For ex
Re:The last four computers... (Score:2)
Maybe you live in a part of the country where the cost of living is cheaper. I'm i
Re:The last four computers... (Score:2)
You should. There were a lot premature M/B failures because of bad electrolytic caps between 2001 and 2004. http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2003Feb/bch20030 207018535.htm [geek.com]
Serves 'em right! (Score:5, Informative)
I don't think it's related but... (Score:4, Interesting)
Dell definitely needs kicking into shape, their customer support is attrocious and some of the tactics they use are borderline, or at least should be outright illegal.
It's just a shame that trading standards are merely getting them to change license agreement or whatever instead of really doing what needs doing - hitting them where it hurts with fines/legal proceedings as they deserve for their disgusting practices.
Their reputation is costing them business (Score:5, Interesting)
This situation is way past ironic. Dell got its start by convincing customers that it was safe to buy computers on line. The service was good. Dell sold good hardware that didn't break but if it did break, there was no problem getting a quick repair or a new machine. Boy, have things ever changed!
My WAG is that there won't be a Dell in five years.
Re:Their reputation is costing them business (Score:2)
My not-so-wild-ass guess is that Dell will still be alive and more or less in its present form in five years.
Interesting... (Score:3, Interesting)
The comparison ends there, with Dell. In my experience they are helpful to a fault and bend over backwards to help you out. They are the true model of how Indian Call Centres should be: helpful to the economy but most importantly, helpful to the customer and so incredibly friendly they would do *anything* for you if their English ws good enough. As this article suggests, YMMV.
Re:Interesting... (Score:2)
Bork!
Re:Interesting... (Score:2)
In other news.... (Score:5, Funny)
My Dell Hell Story (Score:3, Informative)
In light of this news... (Score:2)
1. When you call for support, your call will be answered by a tech support person in your own country and not by some hard-to-understand person from another country (i.e. your call will never be routed to India).
2. Your support contracts will be straight forward, to the point, and easy to understand. In addition, they will represent the best value we can offer for your well-spent
Re:In light of this news... (Score:2)
Dell customers in India have their calls routed to Vietnam.
=)
My take on Dell Support & Dell as a company (Score:2)
Dell support is going downhill. They have been outsourcing to foreigners reading off cue-cards that know diddly squat....
I tried to have a conversation with someone from Dell recently, it was very clear to me, that my colleagues were dead accurate about Dell Support.
More HP is the result.
What does aggravate me though, is Dell's continual B.S.-ing around when it comes to getting some AMD Opteron systems. I swear, as long as some dipshit company refuses to
Ok, so who's better... (Score:2)
How about a better solution? (Score:2)
Seriously, what is holding you back? How difficult is it to select some parts, buy a case and power supply, and put it together with some screws? I mean, this isn't the days of an Altair 8800 where you need to know something about soldering (btw - that's a good skill to pick up, too).
Ok - so maybe you don't have the skill, and are a bit afraid to try your hand with brand new stuff bought for a lot of mullah - I can certainly understand that. So, what to do about gett
Semi-related question - Refurbished parts? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Dell's cust service SUCKS (Score:3, Interesting)
We got a slightly damaged 20" 2001FP Dell monitor, very nice indeed. Damaged during removal at a school, the removal firm owned by relatives, they replaced the monitor with a new one and we got the old one from them. It came sans power cable. Simple, i thought, until i realised it was non-standard and a weird Dell connector. I'll ring Dell, navigate their tech support for the correct part and then order it. Even if it's £30 or so, it's worth it.