Shuttle Launch Success

mkosmo writes to tell us NASA is reporting that shuttle launch today was successful. This launch occurred despite the safety warnings from many top NASA officials.

Debris...

[GFree]

...possibly foam insulation has been seen falling off the shuttle during launch.

Hmm. I forget whether this is classified as "normal" or serious for a shuttle.

Re:When is it my turn?

[cbcanb]

Burt Rutan makes the observation that when he saw the Redstone rocket at the national air museum he wondered, "why don't we fly this anymore?". Indeed why! It's cheap, it's simple - simpler can and often does mean safer. The Redstone can get a person or two into orbit.

No, it can't. Redstone could only launch an astronaut on a very short suborbital hop. A substantially larger rocket is needed to get a human into orbit.

Re:Yeah, it was safe...

[Volanin]

Very good explanation from Wikipedia [wikipedia.org]:

There were reports on the BBC from NASA officials that four pieces of foam had broken off the fuel tank during take off, but these breakages were not considered to be too important, as they occured outside the "time window" of foam break off anticipated by NASA. If, for some reason, the Shuttle cannot safely return to Earth immediately, the astronauts can try to fix any damage using the machinery in the Shuttle, and, if this were to fail, the astronauts would be able to stay on the ISS for up to 80 days. In preparation for such an occurence, the SRB's and External tank for Atlantis are coupled inside the VAB; the Orbiter available for launch within 50 days.

No, they don't...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a great urban legend, but it's not true.

At the beginning of the space race both the American and Russian astronauts used lead pencils. However they found that the leads tended to break, and could get short out electronics if they got lodged somewhere they shouldn't, not to mention striking an astronaut or being inhaled (never mind the lead/graphite dust). Fisher independently developed the pressurized "Fisher Space Pen" in 1965 and all American and Russian space flights since, have used it.

http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp [snopes.com]

Re:"The mst complex machine ever built, blaah, bla

[Anonymous Coward]

Complexity is exponentially proportional to cargo capacity and delta-V. You shouldn't call the Russian craft a pickup truck when it really doesn't have the horsepower (delta-V) to push the space station up. The russian spacecraft are more like a really reliable 4 cylinder coupe.

Re:When is it my turn?

[bruce_the_loon]

Burt Rutan makes the observation that when he saw the Redstone rocket at the national air museum he wondered, "why don't we fly this anymore?".

Indeed why! It's cheap, it's simple - simpler can and often does mean safer. The Redstone can get a person or two into orbit. And why not launch a couple a week? Burt Rutan goes on to point out that after each new space vehicle is created the old designs are never used again.

Rutan does have a point, but the Redstone isn't a good example. It never took a man into full orbit, only the sub-orbital run and it was bettered by the Atlas which got Glenn into orbit. It was never powerful enough for orbital launch.

If anything he should be talking about Atlas and Titan. Which have evolved into the new EELV systems that the military are using. So the designs and evolutions are still there.

The Saturn 5 was a massive beast of a launcher, but they canned it after Apollo. With a heavy lifter like that, NASA could have launched the space station in half the time and much safer. And now they are redesigning the whole heavy-lift launch vehicle for the Moon project.

Re:It's not the launch that matters anymore

[nametaken]

Apparently foam did break off the shuttle on launch today, twice, but during time windows that are unlikely to cause damage to the shuttle. I guess when they can determine that, it's reasonable to call it a successful launch.

I suppose we'll know for sure after they've landed safely though.

Beautiful naked-eye sight

[product byproduct]

Since the shuttle is going to dock with the ISS, make sure you check on Heavens-Above [heavens-above.com] for ISS and STS-121 sightings from your city in the next few days. The best time is just before they dock (or right after they separate) because then you see two small dots in the sky racing in close formation.

Re:Yeah, it was safe...

[Chanc_Gorkon]

Which if you read your link was reported harmless....it was a piece of ice.

NASA's MP4 video file of the space shuttle launch!

[antdude]

Click here [nasa.gov] to download the 16.3 MB MP4 video file. It is about 3 minutes and 22 seconds long. Awesome stuff.

Re:When is it my turn?

[tftp]

don't think even the ruskies stuff can rival the saturn 5

The Energiya [wikipedia.org] booster is configurable to 400,000 lbs, and that exceeds the 285,000 lbs orbital lift capacity of Saturn V. This is not surprising, given that Energiya was designed decades later and was using the latest technologies.

There were only two flights of Energiya, compared to 32 of Saturn V, and it is not manufactured any more. However its technology is not only up to date, it is being actively used [wikipedia.org] in other boosters [pratt-whitney.com]. So if anyone wants to lift 175 tons to the orbit, it can be done. It only costs money. See here [k26.com] for available configurations.

If you really need to launch anything that heavy, it would be cheaper and smarter to pay for manufacturing of Energiya rather than for redesign and manufacturing of Saturn V, and you get more bang for the buck at the same time. Engines of that power that are time-tested and proven to be OK are invaluable.

Re:Is the demand really there?

[QuantumG]

according to Virgin Galactic, the number of people who have expressed interest in taking a suborbital spaceflight with them is in the tens of thousands, while 100 "Founders" have already paid the estimated $200,000 ticket price to secure a place at the front of the line.

from The Space Review [thespacereview.com]. So yes, I think there's a market.

The demand is there, but ...

[WindBourne]

the ship has to be designed and developed to last for a number of launches. In contrast, I would guess that SS1 was designed for less than 6 launches. And even with that, it took something like 5 years. While Paul (allen) is still funding it, he is going to want to get bang for the buck (so to speak). That means that the white knight replacement will probably be designed to carry not only V2(low space, of 100 miles with regular passengers, or very small cargos launches), but also V3 (LEO space or better with regular passengers).

Re:The demand is there, but ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, a number of the small companies will have orbital ships within 5 years. For example, Dream Chaser by space dev should be live within 3-4 years. It is mostly being developed here in colorado. But they already have the engines (SS1). I know several ppl that saw the full-size model being display at ATG (one word; small :) ).

Richard Feynman's Paper on the Challenger Disaster

[bcnstony]

For those who haven't read it, Richard Feynman's Personal observations on the reliability of the Shuttle [ranum.com] is a fascinating look at some of NASA's inner workings, and the problems that led to the challenger disaster. What is suprising (or perhaps totally expected) is that once again we hear managers and engineers differ on what is acceptable levels of risk.

For those who don't know Richard Feynman, he won the Nobel prize, helped develop the atom bomb, and suggested ways for geeks to pick up women.

Re:When is it my turn?

[Eccles]

Just to clear this up, no, the Saturn V plans are on microfiche at Marshall Space Center, there are plenty of records elsewhere, and the Johnson Space Center's Saturn V display is all of what could have been launchable components. The main problem is finding companies to manufacture 1960's spec components, as well as launchpads, etc. having been converted for use with the Space Shuttle.

http://www.space.com/news/spacehistory/saturn_five _000313.html [space.com]

Re:Disappointed.....

[sgtrock]

As American schools tend to concentrate on the preamble (fine, inspiring words that they are), and British schools tend to concentrate on the taxation issues, I thought it might be interesting to see what was actually published. Keep in mind that the Declaration's original purpose was to tell the rest of Europe why we were going our own way so that we could ask for help from England's enemies. At the time, the first real worldwide war was being fought, after all. The Continental Congress probably figured we could pick up some aid just because we'd be a distraction to England. Whether or not that actually played anywhere is open to question. I'd say not, with the exception of France. Even there, they waited a long time before they committed even a small part of their navy.

Anyhow, here's the full list of grievances from the Declaration itself:

The history of the present King of Great Britain [George III] is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introduci

Re:When is it my turn?

[lgw]

That's an urban myth. Building a Saturn V, however, would require parts that are not only "no longer available", but for which the entire manufacturing infrastructure is no longer available. It would be cheaper to start with a fresh design than to make use of the original.

Re:When is it my turn?

[ceejayoz]

Increasing the chances of the long-term survival of the human race? Check!
Serving as a stepping-off point for future, more productive space exploration? Check!
Providing a nice spot for space telescopes? Check!

More?

Re:When is it my turn?

[ultranova]

No the lesson of Return of the Jedi is not to trust the protection of your only shield to a bunch of losers who can't even fight off a bunch of stone-age teddy bears.

No. The "Return of the Jedi" has eight lessons:

1. If you are willing to expose your invincible superweapon to draw your enemies into a trap, make sure that said superweapon is near enough complete to really be invincible. Specifically, make sure that its hull armor is complete, and that there are no open routes that lead straight to the reactor core.
2. If you absolutely must kill the son of your trusted lieutenant, don't do so slowly and torturously in front of his eyes with your back turned on him just after you betrayed him by trying to get said son kill him after sending all the guards away.
3. If you want something guarded, tell the guardians to stay at the location they are supposed to guard and not run off chasing someone who happens to come by.
4. It is cheaper, in the long run, to just kill your enemy and compensate the bounty hunter who brought him in generously than to let said bounty-hunter take said enemy somewhere else alive. You have all the tax money of an entire galaxy to spend, so you should be able to afford it.
5. Any shield generators should be located inside the shield they generate.
6. Any shuttle heading for that generator needs to be inspected physically (meaning they must be boarded) before being allowed to continue, especially if there's anything odd about them, such as using old access codes.
7. Is there any good reasons why the command bridge of a starship should have windows that lead to space and allow the whole ship to be rendered uncontrollable just by blowing those windows ?
8. If your worst enemy tells you that your overconfidence is your weakness, listen to him and correct the matter immediately. He's your worst enemy, so he's propably spent a lot of time trying to figure out any weakness you might have. Being able to take critique constructively is an important thing, even for villains. Of course you should kill him afterwards, since he knows your weakness and insulted you.

There are more, such as the ones leading to Jabbas death (overconfidence again, and not properly inspecting R2-D2), but start with these and you too can be a galactic tyrant just as soon as NASA gets around to establishing sufficient spaceflight capabilities for galactic colonization and conquest.