Microsoft Denies the Windows Kill Switch 513
WindozeSux writes "Microsoft has denied that WGA will kill pirated copies of Windows. According to Waggener Edstrom,"Microsoft anti-piracy technologies cannot and will not turn off your computer." Microsoft also says that WGA is a necessary part of its campaign to catch those illegally using Windows XP which leads one to think what WGA really does then."
Phoning home (Score:5, Interesting)
It may well be checking for pirated movies, songs, etc and MS may be in cahoots with RIAA/MPAA/BOHICA.
What a shock! (Score:2, Interesting)
How Do They Detect Pirated XP Corporate? (Score:5, Interesting)
Kind of funny (Score:5, Interesting)
So microsoft will not risk pissing off an entire corperation sized customer by turning anything off.
Personally I wish they did such a boneheaded move. No matter what the naysayers believe it would force a switch to something else and braindead easy installs like Ubuntu and Mandriva will capture a larger amount of pc's.
The bulk of PC owners out there do not care about playing games except at places like pop-cap and other web based time wasters, they dont go shopping for software on a regular basis. They want their pc to do simple web stuff.
I have converted a large number of people over to ubuntu on their pc after scaring theim with the latest MS fud about not having WGA on there to spy on you they will get viruses and trojans ant other things instantly. So they begrudingly try ubuntu and then 2-3 months later ask me to erase their windows partition for more disk space.
Are they pissed they cant play Quake4 or the sims2 latest expansion pack? nope most people dont have a PC capable of playing them nor plan on buying one.
The low end computing power web/wordprocessing only people outnumber game buyers almost 30 to 1. And those that buy software at best buy and the likes only do so after they find out they cant do it at home already. Ubuntu gives them a button to get free software instantly and without effort so they save more money and I dont have to go support their pc on a weekly basis like I did with windowsXP.
Re:Please, this was never going to happen (Score:1, Interesting)
After a few weeks with auto updates on, the machine stopped working, claiming that it did not have a valid license. We did have a valid license (two, in fact), just not the right keys for the right version I guess.
So rather than feed the MS beast again, we've begin switching to Macs and Ubuntu desktops. That was the last straw for us.
Careful wording? (Score:1, Interesting)
Didn't actually refute the claim, did they? (Score:5, Interesting)
The only quote in that story is that "No, Microsoft antipiracy technologies cannot and will not turn off your computer". That's not the same thing as saying "No, Microsoft antipiracy technologies cannot and will not stop Windows from operating."
My computer can still be on, but XP refuses to boot.
As It Unfolded (Score:5, Interesting)
I believe up until at least Me version and possibly Windows 2000 owners were allowed to install the OS on 2 computers in the family home and carry the OS over to a new mobo when owners updated their hardware. Fast forward to today.
Now, if Windows owners update their mobo's they must purchase a new OS and Home versions of Windows can only be installed on one mobo.
While MS pc Windows is still highly profitable it's no longer expanding in leaps and bounds. It may be that any forseeable increase in profits MS can see for Windows is in squeezing owners of pirated editions.
Personally as I've posted before I'm in countdown mode on Win Xp in a switch over to all Linux/BSD machines. By way of my parents buying my first pcs and my own purchases, as an individual, I've invested in MS DOS, Windows/NT and Office pro for 23 years. No more. I can motivate many people in my sphere of influence to switch to FOSS, but I can't do it if I'm still buying Windows for multimedia/games/web purposes.
If MS can access my computer on a daily basis under the guise of looking for it's stolen property than it's not out of the question that they can accesss my computer for the government. If you have Windows installed on an internet connected pc then you should have zero tolerance for having sensitive information on that pc.
New technology is often met by the buying public in a herd mentality. The model T dominated sales up to nearly 50% of all autos until near existing market saturation then, with the technology having proved itself, many variations in style and manufacture began to appear. Windows is the model T of operating systems, but the early market saturation period has passed.
If I'm right the biggest immediate threat to MS is Apple. I see Apple taking 4-8% of Windows share over the next 3-5 years.
On the desktop Open Source can take considerable market share by way of a multitude of inroads but there are many barriers to overcome.
As for me, as I finish building my new boxes Windows will be phased out. MS has so deeply alienated me that I'll willingly put in time to help fill in the gaps in productivity my switch over will incurr.
Re:Please, this was never going to happen (Score:5, Interesting)
I have a laptop and a desktop. I had WIN2K running on both. Dell was sending me an XP upgrade for my laptop. I got tired of waiting, so I went to the store and bought XP and upgraded my laptop. I figured I could use the laptop upgrade when it arrives for my desktop. When the xp laptop upgrade arrive, I tried to install it on my desktop. The license keys would not work on my desktop. I had two valid licenses, but they were installed on the wrong systems.
I called microsoft's 800 number (from the activation screen) and explained the situation. I wanted to switch my license keys. I did not want to reinstall since I had already loaded many applications and did not want to go through that process again. The microsoft rep said they could not switch the keys, but they would just give me another key for my desktop that would work.
I was shocked! I said, "that means I will have 3 valid xp licenses." I said I could wipe my systems clean and install them the right way and then I'd have a valid key leftover that I could give away. The support rep said they hoped I would not do that, but it was possible.
So even though I know it is cool to bash microsoft, this is a case where they went out of their way to help me. I called them for help and 10 minutes later I had my situation fixed. No need to reinstall Windows or switch os's all together.
Re:Please, this was never going to happen (Score:3, Interesting)
Except... "WGA will kill" is speculation which originated from advice given by a low-level tech in the company. The journalist followed up with requests for clarification from Microsoft, and that company and its pr firm would neither confirm nor deny at the time. The most recent chapter in the saga is that an official statement, quoted in the above abstract, perhaps clarifies Microsoft's intentions. Nonetheless, Microsoft's agent has gone on to say that they they will not entertain any requests for interviews on the subject. I quote:
Source: Ed Bott's Column [zdnet.com]Perhaps these statements are a consequence of the way WGA was rolled out, and the way, allegedly, some people have had WGA nags when they have legitimate licenses. My guess is that the Microsoft lawyers were smelling lawsuits (there's one already) and that's what put the company into clam mode.
Re:Please, this was never going to happen (Score:5, Interesting)
What is the purpose of WGA? Windows Genuine Advantage.
It's purpose is to enforce Microsoft's Intellectual Property Rights. And what right is that? There are really only two -- the right to be paid for Windows, and the right to not have to support Windows that has not been paid for. (and, Customer Education).
The only way to enforce being paid for Windows via WGA is to turn off Windows that haven't been paid for.
The only way to enforce the support right, is to not allow support if WGA is not present, or finds that Windows has not been paid for.
WGA won't work on non-Microsoft platforms. (Microsoft will support Windows 98 and ME without validation, &etc. but has stated that NON-MICROSOFT platforms are not supported by WGA).
Not running WGA locks the user out of the Microsoft Download Center.
Which leads to the "Advantage" part: If you are running Microsoft products on a Microsoft platform, you have the advantage of being able to given access to the Microsoft Download Center for support.
That, of course, can't be true, because it is a violation of US monoply laws (it locks the use of MS Office to the use of Windows). Since it is ridiculous to presume that a company would so blatantly ignore laws, this cannot be the case.
So, either WGA is not needed to get download support for Microsoft Office, OR WGA disables Windows. One is illegal; and the other is silly.
Since I run Microsoft Office under Wine, I wonder if I can request any support via sending of the updates by a different channel (and I will not "crack", "reverse", etc. WGA). Has anyone tried this? Because if that is the case, there is another alternative:
WGA is a tool that simply boosts consumer awareness of bootleg Windows. And that I am completely supportive of.
Ratboy.
Re:The real question is..! (Score:3, Interesting)
This happened to me once. We had software which is deployed on a PDA and communicates to a central server. A product manager wanted to have the server count seats to make sure the users didn't cheat on their licenses. I didn't think it was a great idea, but so be it. Subsequently, our number one support issue was this cheating detection scheme: cases where broken PDAs where replaced, or PDA batteries ran out and they hard reset and people had lost their license files. Yet, I doubt given our customer base that there has ever been an intentional case of software piracy. After the manager left, I changed the system so that if it detected what looks like a license violation, it still functions, but gives a warning with instructions for correcting false positive license problems. This turned an urgent support problem that required phone support to a low priority one that can be handled by email most times.
Turning the FUD tables on Microsoft (Score:2, Interesting)
I have been having some success convincing people to move away from Microsoft's buggy bloatware by oh-so-casually mentioning how MS installs spyware (WGA) on their computers. I got the idea when I was showing a friend how to do an MS Update (he'd never even installed SP2, yet thought his system was reasonably current). He observed how my security software prompted me for permission before it allowed Update to actually do certain things. He asked why I did not DL and install WGA. I told him that Microsoft had no right to snoop around my system and that I didn't trust MS's spyware not to send personal information from my system back to MS. I mentioned that I was getting up to speed on Linux with the intent of *never* installing Vista on any of my systems. (I, too, am finding Ubuntu to be fairly straightforward.)
The industry (of which Microsoft is a vey large part) has "the masses" terrified of malware already and since WGA is best described as Windows Genuine Disadvantage in that it does not benefit the user in any way whatsoever, I am learning to drop just the right hints and let FUD work against Microsoft for a change. Mentioning how Microsoft tries to "sneak" WGA onto the systems of unsuspecting users and how it phones how without their informed consent just confuses (and thereby scares) them more. I point out that reputable companies with solid products don't try to infect their customers' machines with spyware.
What makes this so amusing to me is that I don't even consider myself a Linux geek...yet.
Even more likely (Score:1, Interesting)
Now can someone enlighten me on something? I'm really not all that worried about wga but I do have two cracked XPs, one qemu image and one native isntall. I always thought that wga was the windows registery thing you get at a fresh install, the very thing that I did NOT get in the cracked version I have. So was I wrong and is WGA something else or what? And how do I avoid it? Just not update windows or what? Thanks in advance.
They can't and won't eh? (Score:5, Interesting)
"SO, HERE I AM, sitting in a jet at 34,000 feet someplace above God-only-knows-where, using my computer and minding my own business when Microsoft threatens to essentially shut down my copy of Office. And at the very start of a week-long business trip, too."
And this coming from one of the biggest Microsoft schill sites on the planet.
Re:Hold on a minute! (Score:2, Interesting)
(I rotate between 4 or 5 different ones). One of these days, if enough people make it a regular habit, Microshaft will abandon this narrow-minded, ill-concieved, parochial quest to villainize everybody.
____________________
Of all the strange "crimes" that human beings have legislated out of nothing, "blasphemy" is the most amazing -- with "obscenity" and "indecent exposure" fighting it out for second and third place.
NOT Necessary (Score:5, Interesting)
This is the equivalent of calling you a thief every time it checks. Listen, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that when they check you today and you are legit and then they continue to check you repeatedly, they are accusing you of being a thief.
One time. The WGA notification is not a program I will allow on my computer. I purchased my 20+ licenses. I don't expect Microsoft to make me feel, as a small business owner, as if I am a thief.
I don't care about protecting Microsoft. I could care less about them and their profit. They pocket so much of that profit anyway instead of putting it back into development.
Microsoft's Vista is nothing more than XP with a new interface paradigm. Other than that new look they have cut all the meat out of the new features so as to make it a "no go" on the upgrade path. Everyone needs to understand that. Clearly VISTA is XP with a new desktop look. That's it. It isn't worth 200-400 dollars to upgrade.
So, if they make $3 billion in profit quarterly, wheres their loss at? Where's the loss of revenue to those pirates and why should I care less about Microsoft's bottom line.
Stop calling everyone a thief Microsoft.
Microsoft is playing a game with everyone. Over the past year they have been testing, probing, feeling to see how much violation of privacy we will take. Then they devise not just WGA but WGN. The WGN was tested in other countries first because they didn't want the outcry to be too loud from the US too quickly or it would turn the rest of the world off. So they slid their WGN into the EU and Asia in an effort to ensure it got done. Then they released it in the US under the guise that if the rest of the world allowed it and had no issue with it, the US should not either.
But of course, we value our privacy. We recognize that one company siphoning off $3 billion a quarter in profits really should be turning something back to the us. Listen, Bill Gate's donations to charity keep him from having to pay huge amounts of dollars to the government in taxes. This simply allows him to keep more of his money.
I've read the figures about how much his foundation gives, what their yearly budget is. Compared to $3 billion in profit every quarter $1 billion annually (from not just his donations, but others) is nearly nothing. Does he help the people in WA state where he enjoys laws that benefit his profit? From laws that give him tax breaks? Laws that provide him with a workforce that can be forced into 70-80 hours a week without compensation for each hour of work? He gives some money to libraries, schools, etc., but he does nothing for the community.
You can see this. Look at google earth and view the area around the location where his main offices are. There are no real parks, no special services, no assistance to public tranist. Nothing.
The bottom line is that WGN allows him to force purchases by those probably too poor to purchase his expensive OS already. XP costs alot of money for some. It is due to his monopoly that allows the OS to stay as highly priced as it is. Now he wants us all to upgrade to Vista which to anyone with a brain knows that it is just XP SP3. The security features could/should be incorporated into XP considering how much money we all paid for it and how irresponsible Microsoft has been toward the security of the OS, even after 2 years where they know that spyware/malware is so bad that even their head of the department for developing anti-spyware/malware tools tell us it is impossible to resolve all the problems and that we are just going to have to reformat every so often just to keep a safe secure system.
They'll justify Vista as a security fix when everyone realizes that Vista is just XP with a new interface and a huge increase in hardware requirements forced generally due to DRM implementations
Re:Please, this was never going to happen...riight (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Please, this was never going to happen (Score:3, Interesting)
Mac- open box, take out and turn on, use
Linux- install, reboot once, use.
As I type this I just realized that even Tier1 OEM vendors require at least 1 reboot for XP. I just setup a HP/Compaq a few weeks ago and it required a reboot.
Re:if the records exist, RIAA or anyone can subpoe (Score:2, Interesting)
They might not be a nice company (Score:5, Interesting)
but I hope they manage to make every single user pay for Windows, soon.
The thing is is you don't try to force users to pay by screwing your legitimate users. Instead of getting more people to pay you may drive them away. That's what they're doing to me. I've been buying and using PCs with Windows for almost 10 years but the next computer I get will be a Mac. If MS includes Activation [microsoft.com] in a product I won't buy it if I can get away without having it.
FalconStory was made by M$. (Score:4, Interesting)
So, another hyped story killed with a modicum of common sense
Common sense does not apply with an organization like M$. From the fine article:
A ZDNet.com blogger reported earlier in the week on a conversation between a Windows user and a Microsoft support staffer, who allegedly admitted that users who refused to install the WGA update would be given 30 days before their copies of Windows would stop working. ZDNet.com said that Microsoft refused to deny the report at the time. But later, Microsoft appeared to sing a different tune. No, Microsoft antipiracy technologies cannot and will not turn off your computer,
That's what I remember too, amazing.
There would have been no kill switch story if M$ had just been honest to begin with. They are not honest, so all you are left with is the facts: WGA installs itself, if you don't have it they won't give you "updates", when installed it phones home every day.
Speculation based on those facts and previous behavior is natural. For years, minor changes to your hardware would stop your M$ computer from working ether through technical failure or forced reregistration. Given their willingness to ship buggy product and previous mechanisms that "turn your computer off", a reasonable person would guess WGA would be doing the same thing. Indeed, what's it going to do if it does find a "non genuine copy"?
M$'s intentionally bad non free driver situation can be compared to live CDs. Knoppix, auto configures in less time than it takes XP to boot and still has room for a complete office suite and web server. Changing hardware in a M$ computer is tricky at best. Even if you are successful, you will often be forced to re register.
M$'s practice of forced reregistration on minor hardware changes has no parallel in any industry.
The William Gates Agent [WGA] is going to suck.
Re:Please, this was never going to happen (Score:1, Interesting)
Now who is confusing rights?
MSFT _may_ have a MORAL right to get paid for someone using what they produce. But MORAL rights don't mean shit. Your moral right an $0.50 will get you a newspaper.
But MSFT does NOT have a LEGAL right to be paid for someone using what they produce. Oh, under copyright they have the legal right to STOP someone from using what they produce, and that person may have a contractual right to use the software if they paid and MSFT agreed to the payment. But fundamentally MSFT is not under some compulsory license to to allow anyone who pays to use their product, which is what your "right" to be paid would result in.
IP (in general) is a negative right. You have the right to STOP someone from using what you have. Not a right to use it yourself (especially with patents) and no right to be paid (unless there is compulsory licensing).
Re:The real question is..! (Score:5, Interesting)
Wow, do you go to RIAA University? The same one that says if P2P doesn't exist all those customers would go out and buy those CDs and DVDs they pirated?
Re:What does WGA do? (Score:4, Interesting)
Quite true, but I doubt you can lay all of the blame at Microsoft's feet. This is the way the entire retail world works.
I've built many systems and what it really comes down to is the type of system you intend to build. There's no way in hell a whitebox builder can meet a $299.99 price. They can, however, compete well on a $1500+ system, even with Windows and Office. I've done it many times. And, no, I'm not pirating anything.
In any case, what MS does is what ATI, ASUS, and every one else does. It's still not an excuse to pirate software.
Re:Please, this was never going to happen...riight (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:"We can't turn off your computer" (Score:5, Interesting)
That's copy protection for ya (Score:5, Interesting)
Now guess what has happened, twice, already...
They come to us and say that they had to replace the HDD after a crash. They send in a new authorization file, we check - the MAC is the same, the machine name is the same, the HDD s/n is different. Fair 'nuff. So we should get them a new license.
Or should we? Because in two verified situations, all the end-user did was rename a second computer, stick their bluetooth USB key in that, and generated an auth for it. So guess what happens? We get them another license file for what should have been the same computer with a different HDD, but which is essentially a second computer; because the MAC identifier was the USB key, the license type is MAC-less, and so will happily run on that computer.
Instant free extra licenses - 'piracy' at its best.
So although the author may whine about a change, probably a network stack change, he has his colleagues in the industry to thank for it - because we all know it's not going to stop the users who specifically set out to get an illegal copy, but it will stop those sneaky bastards who prefer not to get caught with pants down with a known illegal copy and instead have a 'licensed' copy to show to any auditing entity.
In a perfect world, people would be honest. In a perfect world, copy and licensing protections wouldn't have to exist. Here's to all software becoming free-as-in-beer and professional coders finding a way to make a living through other means, so that everybody benefits. Just a shame that's not going to happen anytime soon.
Re:"We can't turn off your computer" (Score:5, Interesting)
It should work on win95-98 systems too except you would do it ot the regular screen saver. also you still can do stuff like this with the printer commands so to elevate to admin access all you would have to do is print to a hidden network printer. just like in win95, this is great for acessing recovering passwords and such. Although there are easier ways availible now.
Re:Please, this was never going to happen (Score:1, Interesting)
No. You will have two valid licenses and three valid keys. Using all three keys would be just as much a copyright violation as using a warez version of XP.
Re:That's copy protection for ya (Score:5, Interesting)
Guess what? I don't care. If you are threatening to shut down my computer, that's an excellent reason NOT to use your product. Ever. Under any circumstances. Or ever recommend it.
Now I'm not a typical user, since I read the nlank-dashed MS EULA and decided already that I didn't want to go there. Over 5 years ago. That MS has just gotten worse since then only re-confirms that I made the correct decision. When I must, I use a Mac. Otherwise I use Linux. And when I use a Mac, I don't use MSOffice and I don't use MSIE. I use Seamonkey and NeoOffice (or, recently, OpenOffice2).
You'd never guess that I started out as an MS appologist "Not that bad, for a monopoly" I said. Well, at the time it was true, but it's not true anymore.
So. Do I beleive that "They won't shut down your computer."? No. I *DO* believe that that's the official party line, and that if the hoorah is too much they may delay implementing it until Vista has people more securely locked in. And I believe that this comment was a "trial baloon", but I don't think that it being shot down will change their plans, only the timing.
Maybe not kill... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Please, this was never going to happen (Score:2, Interesting)
Each time you re-install Windows you need to explain your motives at Microsoft. And be sure they'll log your call. It's not that bad, but I don't like the idea to answer for my actions at Microsoft.. ...and typing over a 56-digit key twice :-|.
FYI: In my case, a bad driver from windows update caused display problems and it could not be fixed with Dell support. To get a new activation key you'll have to explain this first at the phone.
Re: Please, this was never going to happen (Score:3, Interesting)
Forget about sueing for slander. Such cases are drawn out and expensive, and Microsoft can certainly afford better lawyers than you can.
A safer approach would be to bill them for your time sorting out the problems they have created for your clients, then when they don't pay, file a claim against them (does the US have something like the small claims process here in the UK? - it is cheap, no lawyer required, and often large companies don't bother turning up for the hearing and lose by default).