Complaints Filed Over Firms Seeking H1-B Holders

Vicissidude writes "Since May, the Programmers Guild has filed 100 complaints with the U.S. Department of Justice, accusing several companies of advertising that they specifically want H-1B workers, a violation of U.S. law. The U.S. Immigration and Nationality Act requires that U.S. jobs must be available to U.S. workers. The complaints stem from ads containing wording such as "We require candidates for H1B from India," and "We sponsor GC [green card] and we do prefer H1B holders," the Programmers Guild said. The Programmers Guild, looking for ads on major online job boards, has so far targeted only ads seeking computer programmers, the guild said. It plans to file 280 more complaints over the next six months."

Don't have to discriminate to be cheapassed...

[posterlogo]

Not sure why these companies feel they have to actively seek out foreign visa workers like that, so blatantly discriminating. There are far more legal ways to achieve the goal of a free-market style cheap labor economy. For example, the obvious, an American worker is not intrinsically "worth" more than a foreign worker, so why not just offer the same starting salary to any entry-level candidate? Chances are the foreign visa worker will still see that as a decent offering and take the job, whereas the American worker may not. It really seems like the goal was to get qualified workers without having to offer the inflated salaries that domestic workers expect. Couldn't this sort of be established de facto by offering every candidate a salary comparable to what a visa worker would get, rather then de jure by hiring only visa workers?

Next up: Labor-based GC 7 years?

[Anonymous Coward]

If they are going to go after the H-1B program, maybe next they should set their sights on improving the GC process from what took, in some jurisdictions, up to 7 years, to something a lot more reasonable like 7 months, or why not 7 weeks? After all, the ridiculously lengthy GC process is just another point of abuse for foreign and hence American workers. To be fair, the process has already been "streamlined", where it now takes on average something around 3-4 years total. But, that's still far too long, and leaves people vulnerable. Perhaps the programmers guild would like to see this shortened so they they decrease the abuses and increases their membership?

It never ceases to amaze me how, globally, we have virtually free movement of capital, a moderately free movement of goods, but a heavily restricted movement of people. The three major components of the economy have dramatically different levels of restrictions depending on how the given component cuts between the wealthy and the working "classes".

Who wants a lightening fast immigration system? Not the employers...that's for sure. And yet, overall, that would arguably be best for the overall economy.

"It turns out the so-called free market isn't quite so free, if you're a worker bee".

Some more info-Back slash.

[Anonymous Coward]

"But it's hard when Free Traitors keep bringing in people to compete with the people already here."

So in other words. The US is the only country that hires foreign skilled labour?

Re:Who cares?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

You're not allowed to "prove your salt", at least not easily. I was laid off with 8 years of industry experience in 2001. I was utterly ignored in the "spam out the resume" world. So I hitched on to my migraines as a disability, got my foot in the door contracting with the state, and after 2.5 years of proving myself as a contractor, I'll be getting my first real paycheck with benefits next month.

It took me 5 years to "prove my salt" all over again, despite having 8 years in the industry. I'm only now programming at the same skill level I was in 1999, having had to do all the crap jobs to prove my salt. You know NOTHING of the real world- you've been coddled. Hope you've kept up on your studying.

An old scheme

[CaroKann]

About a decade ago, when I was fresh out of college and trying to find a programming job, one of the resources I used was the local employment office. While I was going over a list of jobs with the employment office guy, I noticed some jobs I thought I should try for and asked about them. The guy told me that I was wasting my time, that it was a dishonest company, and that I had no chance of getting hired. He explained to me how that particular company only wanted to hire an HB1 visa employee, and that they only listed the job with the employment office because the law requires that they must make an effort to hire an American first. Every American that applies for the job will be found wanting, and, their legal obligations satisified, the company will then proceed to hire an HB1 employee. I was willing to work anywhere at that time, so I tried anyway, and of course i did not get the job.

That's only one of the schemes I've encountered while looking for work. The job market can be a scummy place.

Re:What this really is... Job tailoring?

[Duncan3]

I know that this "job-tailoring" is done frequently in the industry as a way of getting the exact person you know.

Actually, that's the only reason anyone still writes job ads. If you nor your employees know poeple good for the job, you're already out of business.

That's just how it is.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[alexmin]

The company I work for has being trying to hire junior to mid-level programmer in major metropolitan area for six months already. We are not looking for extensive experience or specialized skills, just fairly common problem-solving and communication ability. Sure, we went throught more than a hundred resumes and about a dozen in-person interviewes but so far found just one good candidate who's employed and was just testing what's going on with job market.
Even though one case does not prove anything I'd say that finding capable person is very hard.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[colinrichardday]

Gee, what about H1B CEOs?

You missed the whole point

[Dj-Zer0]

For me H1-B worker is same as your (Great x N) grand dad, (unless your a native american or non us-citizen, )

They are also here to fulfil their american dream. Many of them are with Much talent but rather than talent they also have a good attitude towards their employees, unlike some us-citizen counterparts who always in demand of high salary.

Working as a programmer is not just about salary you also need to have a passion for it, if your just being a programmer just for the money i would never want to hire you.

I have seen H1B program abused with my own eyes

[Tablizer]

I have seen companies hire a mix of citizens and H1B's (I think the law requires this above a certain quantity), and then fire the citizens they didn't like much when the project ramped down a bit. It was not that the citizens sucked, it is just that they were not top performers. In theory the H1B program is not meant to replace C citizens with A visa workers, but satisfy "skill shortages".

Another time they paid the H1B's only once every six months (the full amount though). The workers couldn't do anything about it because reporting it would have their sponsor put out of business, sending them back home.

I'd love to work in the USA for a while

[Harald Paulsen]

I don't know about other people, but I live in Norway and one of my dreams is to get a H-1B visa and work in the USA for 6-24 months to improve my english and have something nice on my resumé. Then I'd return to my own wonderful country with lots of experience and some great memories.

Re:Loving it

[theshowmecanuck]

It would be OK if this created a level playing field, but it does not (at least not when hiring foreign IT workers to work in the U.S.). Workers who are laid off on who were on a work visa need to find another job within one month or clear out of the U.S. If they find another job, the new company they work for will need to spend the money to get the sponsorship moved to them. Put together the fact that finding a job in under a month and that many companies don't want to spend the money on the lawyers fees for the sponsorship, getting laid off usually means having to leave the country. So what's it all mean? Knowing this, many times companies hire the foreign IT workers for often times less than they would pay U.S. workers, knowing that they can treat the foreign workers like indentured servants. Work hard, lots of overtime, and for less money, or we will lay you off, and you'll have to leave the country. This can be quite a hardship... and ergo no level playing field. An American employee will no longer have an income (usually) if laid off, but they don't have to immediately uproot everything and move their home overseas.

When the government gives out the H1-B they should recognize that they are really saying 'we have a shortage of IT workers'. That should mean that it shouldn't matter what company the foreign IT worker works for. I.e. if they are given a visa it should be a 6 year work visa and the worker should be free to move from company to company and stay in the U.S. for 6 years regardless of whether they are employed or not (but they should not be eligible for welfare or unemployment). That way if company A treats them like shit, they can get another job (without sponsorship hassles) at company B who will treat them better. This would provide incentive for company A to pay more and treat the employee better. This would benefit the American workers in that there would be less incentive for company A to hire the foreign worker since they will have to provide the same or similar pay and benefits as if they had just hired an American worker. Otherwise the foreign work, like an American worker, can leave for company B. Then the only business justification the American company would have to bring someone in from overseas would be if they really were more qualified in some respect than an American worker. Of course the company is then free to possibly outsource directly to China or India, but that is another matter.

My 22 cents worth... slag away at it if you want.

Nothing's changed here in 20 years...

[smilindog2000]

In 1986, I got a job after graduating from Berkeley with a BS in EECS for $29,500/year. The last hire I made that I'd consider comparable was an Indian student from a state university with a masters. We hired him for $60K/year. I checked out this site for inflation rates:

http://eh.net/hmit/compare/ [eh.net]

In short, a smart engineer with a college degree makes the same today as he did 20 years ago. Even back then, half engineers I graduated with were Indian or Chinese. It's no different today.

Sure, we engineers have to compete globally, which makes us poorer on average than doctors and lawyers. I's still rather be an engineer.

The first month after taking that first job, I was approached by communist picketers outside my workplace. They were pushing for unions, and higher wages. These Programmers Guild people are no different. It was a bad idea then, just as it is now.

Shouldn't this be black and white?

[secolactico]

I'm not american and have never lived in America. I'm not indian (looks like they are the primary H1B workers) and I'm not a programmer.

Wether H1B are "moral" or not, the issue should be that these companies might be simply violating the letter (and spirit) of the law that implements H1B visas.

They are stating in a public way that they prefer H1B workers? No problem there since everyone is entitled to their opinions. But if they are actively refusing to hire locals in favor of H1B, they are not even exploiting a loophole. They are simply breaking a law that states that H1B are only to be hired when local talent is not available.

Inmigration (as well as labor?) authorities should have a record of H1B sponsors. Number too high? Audit them and make them justify their H1B.

Of course, politicos are usually in the pockets of corporations, so I'm guessing there's not much chance of that.

In fact, given all the brouhaha that I'm seeing on CNN about illegal aliens in the US, I'm suprised that this issue hasn't come up (I know they are H1B are legal, but mobs usually don't care).

Re:USian Terminology

[Anonymous Coward]

In the old days it used to be called indentured servitude; the idea was to basically sell yourself into slavery, for a given limited -- though potentially quite long -- duration, in exchange for the cost of passage. Nowdays, it is called H1B, but the principle remains; whereby very qualified people come here to take lousy IT jobs -- i.e., lousy as in, not necessarily rich in promotion opportunities -- at about 30% below prevalent wages (the law is supposed to prevent this wages discrepencies, but it is so easy to circumvent), in exchange for the promise of sponsoring one's green card application. The green card is therefore the carrot, and the employers are never on a hurry to start the application, one rarely gets it before the end of the H1B term, while the stick is the fact that the visa is attached to the job, i.e., you loose the job, you loose the visa, and have then ten days to leave the country (the law tends to be enforced more enthusiastically against the ex-employees). This simplifies management drastically: no whining or complaining against unpaid overtime and stupid jobs... (oh, I am an ex-H1B by the way)

I guess you would jump at this 'entry level' job

[hemp]

I guess $10/hr is a lot in Southern California these days:

  Location:US-CA-Riverside

Base Pay:$10.00/Hour

Other Pay: Discussed upon Employment
Employee Type: Full-Time Employee
Industry: Merchandising
Retail
Recreation
Manages Others: no

Job Type: Marketing
Req'd Education: High School
Req'd Experience: Less Than 1 Year
Req'd Travel: Negligible
Relocation Covered: No

  DESCRIPTION

We are looking for someone who can multi-task and is highly motivated to work in the marketing/E-Commerce department. You will be responsible creating and maintaining multiple websites including but not limited shopping carts & info sites.

Must be able to follow instructions and follow through. Must be willing to learn and work independently. English fluency is a must.

Company can sponsor OPT and H1-B Visa requirements.

*If you can't accept the listed base pay, please do not apply.

  REQUIREMENTS
Requirements: (Things that you must know)

- Knowledge in HTML

- Knowledge in Photoshop (or other graphics editing software)

Advantages: (Things that are a plus)

- Knowledge in PHP

- Knowledge in Flash

- Knowledge in ASP

- Knowledge in .Net

- Knowledge in MSSQL

- Knowledge in MySQL

- Ability to speak fluent Chinese

http://www.careerbuilder.com/JobSeeker/Jobs/JobDet ails.aspx?IPath=ILK&jobcount=58&job_did=J8C4R35WD7 MFNJLKDPZ&sfascc=%22h1-b%22&dv=dv&jrdid=&lpage=3&s name=&CiBookMark=1&strcrit=QID%3DA6653224969589%3B st%3DA%3Buse%3DALL%3BrawWords%3D%22h1-b%22%3BCID%3 DUS%3BSID%3DALL%3BTID%3D0%3BENR%3DNO%3BDTP%3DDR3%3 BYDI%3DYES%3BIND%3DALL%3BPDQ%3DAll%3BJN%3DAll%3BPA YL%3D0%3BPAYH%3Dgt120%3BPOY%3DNO%3BETD%3DALL%3BRE% 3DALL%3BMGT%3DDC%3BSUP%3DDC%3BFRE%3D30%3BCHL%3DAL% 3BQS%3Dsid_unknown%3BSS%3DNO%3BTITL%3D0%3BJQT%3DRA D [careerbuilder.com]

Auction them off

[cfulmer]

So, industry claims that H1-B visas are needed because there are some skills which are just not available in the U.S. job market. The other side is that (1) yes, those skills are; and (2) even if they weren't, companies could hire Americans and train them.

The visas are obviously in high demand -- they disappear in an astonishingly short time after they become available every year.

IMO, the best way to approach this is to auction the H1-B visas off: If you have a position that you need filled, bid for an H1-B visa. If somebody else needs it more, they'll bid more and they'll win. Otherwise, if you need it more, you'll bid more and win.

The interesting thing is the feedback mechanism -- if the visas are going for $200,000 each, that's a pretty good indication that the job isn't availble in the US and it's really hard to train Americans to do it. But, on the other hand, if companies are just trying to save a few bucks, then the visas will go for a lot less, maybe $20,000. That would indicate that there are too many H1-B visas, and companies are just using them to get cheap labor. If the price is too high, that would indicate the need to raise the cap. Otherwise, it would indicate a need to lower it.+

Re:Raise less H1-B's and more Hell towards Co.'s.

[NormalVisual]

What I love have been the companies that have interviewed me and have either been jerking me around (many of them) or, in one case, quite literally downright verbally abusive.

I refuse to put up with it, and if someone is verbally abusive to me I will not hesitate to quickly and loudly put them in their place before leaving immediately afterwards.

I had one company that I had *really* wanted to work at, and after a combination of five phone and in-person interviews, they said they wanted me to come in and interview yet again. I got fed up with it and told them, "thanks, but no - you have my resume and you've already talked to me enough to be able to determine whether you want me or not. I'm not spending my own money just to come down and talk to every manager that says he wants to speak to me." Two weeks later they offered me a job, but I'd already taken something with another company and I told them I wouldn't have accepted even if I hadn't. If they were going to screw with candidates like that, I figured nothing would be keeping them from doing the same once I was an employee.

Re:Training Damage

[Tablizer]

Is your contention that a C-level programmer deserves a job that an A-level programmer is willing to do because the C-level programmer is a native? I'm not afraid of a little competition. Why do you hate capitalism?

My main point was the stated *intent* of the H-1B program. It was not sold to the American people as an economic Darwin plan, but rather to "relieve skill shortages". Very few would consider the replacement of C workers with foreign A workers part of this goal.

Another issue is scaling and fairness. What if it applied to *all* careers, not just IT? If my doctors, auto-mechanics, and lawyers were all imported, then maybe my cost of living wouldn't be so high. The burden of free trade goes on IT workers but the benefits go to careers not targeted by visa workers.

Further, imagine what would happen if the competition door was opened to everybody. The concept does not scale. The country would be flooded with extreme 17-hour-day workaholic Phd's and most citizens would be displaced.

As far as "hating capitalism", it is a tool. If the tool stops working for me, I will no longer support it so easily. I would rather have a fullfilling and comfortable job than a Hummer and cheaper WalMart trinkets. The US was highly protectionist until the mid 60's, and there is no evidence that we were significantly hurt by it. Globalism tends to benefit the wealthy at the expense of others.

Of course they prefer H1B

[billcopc]

I just happen to live in a very broadly multicultural area that also just happens to be fairly dense in high-tech and medium-tech businesses. I had a fellow from India explain some of this stuff to me. Up here people typically just obtain their citizenship and apply for work like everyone else, on equal terms. In the states where he had previously worked as well as many of his college mates, the attitude is to fly people over on a work visa, then the employers use that non-resident status as a cattle prod. He told me he was often afraid of being fired and exiled back to India for no valid reason, other than the company trying to pressure him into working longer hours. The work visa then becomes the slave driver's whip.

So the guy moved up north to the land of beavers, poutine and warm busty women. Sure, it took a little work to get the papers done but now he's a permanent citizen just like me, and he works the same job, gets the same pay, enjoys the same benefits and pays the same ridiculously high taxes as everyone else. We don't throw around many work visas because frankly, if you're going to work in Canada, you might as well live here too and keep the money recirculating (and re-taxing) in our system.

Re:Huh?

[PCM2]

Other parties like, say, InfoWorld?

But you'll notice that all the articles on InfoWorld reference the Programmers' Guild.

I'm really not trolling like the other guy suggests. Any time I see a single organization chiming in on an issue every. Single. Time. It's. Brought. Up ... I get suspicious. I don't doubt that outsourcing, H-1B and related issues are a problem for American workers. I just wonder what the Programmers Guild's deal is. Are you a member? Is anyone you know?

Oh and BTW -- full disclosure, I am a senior editor at InfoWorld.