Complaints Filed Over Firms Seeking H1-B Holders

Vicissidude writes "Since May, the Programmers Guild has filed 100 complaints with the U.S. Department of Justice, accusing several companies of advertising that they specifically want H-1B workers, a violation of U.S. law. The U.S. Immigration and Nationality Act requires that U.S. jobs must be available to U.S. workers. The complaints stem from ads containing wording such as "We require candidates for H1B from India," and "We sponsor GC [green card] and we do prefer H1B holders," the Programmers Guild said. The Programmers Guild, looking for ads on major online job boards, has so far targeted only ads seeking computer programmers, the guild said. It plans to file 280 more complaints over the next six months."

Re:Some more info

[Marxist Hacker 42]

I'm a member- or rather was, I need to be again once I get my first permanent paycheck in 5 years. They also put out interesting technical articles in their newsletter- the idea is to create better programmers so that we can out-compete India on skills if not price. But it's hard when Free Traitors keep bringing in people to compete with the people already here.

Re:USian Terminology

[Marxist Hacker 42]

In America, we have different classes of Visas available for different reasons. H-1b is INTENDED to allow American companies to hire people with Master's degrees or better who have skillsets not available in America. In practice, it's used to bring in as many Bachelor's Degree holders as possible every year to drive wages down in highly skilled jobs. It's so popular that businesses actually run out of these visas within a few minutes of them becoming available every year. Current cap is 65,000 per Federal Fiscal Year- they're usually gone by 20 minutes after midnight on the first of October.

The big part is that these visas were originally sold as having *no* effect on US employment- after all, the skillsets are supposed to be completely unavailable in the United States, and no way to train anybody in that skillset. In practice though- well, you see some of the quotes from advertising for these jobs.

Re:USian Terminology

[fimbulvetr]

Although I shouldn't extend you the courtesy after you've used "USian", there is a fine link here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1B [wikipedia.org]

It's essentially a visa permitting medium term residency in the United States. Corporate managers love them because they can hire 2:1 or even better over local candidates.

Things you should know about H1-B

[ax_1225]

The vast majority of the companies will not hire H1-B workers. Why? Because it's a PITA especially for small and medium companies. All the legal trouble and fees and restrictions are just too much hassle for most companies.

Also it is good to know there are minimum salary levels for the H1-B workers. A company can't hire a senior programmer from outside of US and pay 20k per year. This doesn't mean that some companies might not abuse the system and try different tricks to get cheaper work force but I really belive that the majority of H1-B workers came in US because companies couldn't find qualified people.

The truth is that there aren't many good programmers out there and there is still a lot of demand for them. I see many programmers coming for interviews at the company I work for and when someone good arrives (not very often) it is very difficult to get them as they already have several offers from other companies.

BTW I am also a H1-B worker and I'm payed a competitive salary and the company also pays a lot of legal fees for my H1-B and green card. Besides that I pay income taxes and spend all my money here in the US. America has a lot to win from the H1-B program.

Re:Bigotry and Cheap Labor

[FooAtWFU]

Because economics has become warfare- and unless you want to be forced to worship Krishna, there's a reason why we have national sovereignity.

Wow. This, sir, is truly a most unusual juxtaposition of viewpoints. I'll go so far as to say it's perhaps the most unusual one I've ever seen.

But let me say this. My dad is an award-winning economist (Jonathan Hughes Prize, actually) and he's a good man, and I've taken an introductory class myself, though it's been a while. Still, I know a few things. Economics is a science. It has laws. True, they are not as solid as the Laws Of Physics, but they're just as true. And the truth is that free markets, by and large, make peoples' lives better, not worse. Your rhetoric about how "markets never did any good for anybody" is extremism of the most ridiculous and absurd variety. What did help people then? Sustanance farming? People don't trade in a market , whether they're trading corn or computers or labor or lemons, unless both parties gain something. You may groan about your soul-sucking job, but the fact is that you'd be far worse off without it.

My father has argued that free trade is a fundamental human right: If someone in Cuba has something to sell me, and I want to buy it, what business has anyone stopping us? Anything else is simply coercing us. You argue "protectionism!" to build a strong local economy. Why must it be local? Are the people overseas less deserving of jobs, and the progress of the modern world? Ah, I am sure you will argue about "what progress?" and tell us of how they are so terribly exploited and make only sixty cents a day in a factory - but you have missed the alternative, that they were making the equivalent of thirty cents a day doing sustainence farming beforehand. Ah, you will say, but the companies, the evil companies of course, they are going to pass all the savings along to the CEOs, those rich evil bastards. In a truly free market, though, another company will gladly spring up doing the exact same thing, but NOT pay the CEOs a bunch of money, until the other company goes out of business (or changes).

Markets are not there to make your life better. They are there to make everybody's lives better. If it comes down to it, assuming you still have Free Will, you can always choose to exclude yourself - if you're willing to pay the price. But then- maybe the price is too high, maybe the government demands taxes or such beyond your ability to pay. But that's outside of the market. That's government.

Moreover, economics - many think it's the study of money. It's not. It's the study of choices. That's all a market is- a set of choices. People associate Economics with Money because Money is the easiest sort of choice to quantify, the easiest to measure, the easiest to analyze. Recognize that to economists, everything is a market unless it's coersion. You're not in favor of coersion for every little thing, are you? If you think people should have any sort of choice in anything they do, you are supporting a market. And I hope you're not aiming for totalitariansim in your politics, especially not intentionally. I'd like to think better of you than that.

TI's H1-B quota

[Anonymous Coward]

I am posting anonymously for obvious reasons...

A close friend at TI wishing to bring me into his team set up 2 full days of both technical and non-technical interviews. Going through the interview process everyone I encountered, all the way up through to the VP of the business unit, felt I was both technically competent and a great fit for the team.

My friend being the hiring manager had then informed me that he authorized the hire based on everyone's extremely positive feedback and had released it to HR for preparation of the offer letter.

The next day, my friend called to inform me that HR told him TI would not be able to hire me because I do not have a degree, and for them to break policy would be unfair to the H1-B candidates they had apparently had a quota for.

His entire team was dumbfounded, and the VP was prepared to attempt a few other avenues to push the hire through, but I told my friend that I was not interested in working with companies that have such insidious policies.

I hold nothing against my H1-B possessing colleagues, and in fact believe there are individuals far more capable than myself for certain research roles. However, being told that I could not have a job that I was found technically suitable for simply because there was an H1-B quota to fill for the unit has embittered me a bit.

Be not fooled my H1-B brethren. You are not wanted simply because there is a dearth of technologists in this land; no, you are the cheap labor for which the big corporations have lobbied Washington for so long.

... and in case you are wondering, I make six figures with my current employer, so there is no unemployment driven ire here.

EE-Times study shows 23% wage discrepency

[Tablizer]

http://www.informationweek.com/industries/showArti cle.jhtml?articleID=189500671 [informationweek.com]

"Immigrant[1] engineers with H-1B visas may be earning up to 23 percent less on average than American engineers with similar jobs, according to documents filed with the U.S. Department of Labor. Salary data from Labor Condition Applications (LCAs) lends credence to arguments that lower compensation paid to H-1B workers suppresses the wages of other electronics professionals...."

[1] H-1B's are not immigrants. This may be a mis-wording.
     

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[Anonymous Coward]

That was never true. H1-B workers were needed simply because salarys were beginning to rise and industry didn't want that trend to continue.

Actually you are both wrong though the parent poster is less wrong. H1-B visas are issued to workers in the cases where a company didn't find a "qualified" citizen to do the job. That can mean that none of the applications they recieved had the appropriate qualifications, or that no one bothered to apply at all. If an employer is audited they actually have to be able to prove this. There a number of differant types of visas, they have differant lengths of time they are valid for. The companies bringing in employees on these visas are typically paying a significant sum of money for the visa and for legal fees associated with obtaining the visa as well as for fees that will be accrued when/if the employees visa needs to be renewed. In addition to these expenses foreign workers are paid by the majority of the high tech companies in the U.S. at the same or only slightly lower rates as citizens. Often the slightly reduced rate is due to the expense of bringing over a foreign worker.

I do nothing but deal with high tech companies on a daily basis and handle HR issues mainly pertaining to immigration issues, though my company handles all employees it's much easier and cheaper to hire a U.S. citizen. The biggest differance I see between employees that are citizens and those that are on work visas is the level of education. The foreign workers have more education than their American counterparts.

When companies outsource to foreign companies they are trying to cut costs. When they bring foreign workers to the U.S. they are trying to hire qualified people. It doesn't sound nearly as good for those arguing against the immigration programs we have in place of course, but it is the reality of the situation.

Re:Some more info

[Tablizer]

but if the H-1B situation was really as cut and dried...

Often it is not. There are many wiggly loopholes. Examples from my old blog:

# Resume Templating - Add every skill that a given H-1B candidate has on his/her resume into the "needed skills" line of the application form. That way the "needs" profile will never match a citizen above the probability of winning the Instant Millionaire lottery. Government inspectors are usually too overworked and/or not knowledgeable enough to check and follow-up on actual skills used on the job, especially if there are more than a few. (This approach was also covered in another message.)

# Undocumented Experience - Claim a highly experienced H-1B applicant is really only a beginner, and thus a company gets experience at beginner rates. Inspectors cannot realistically check somebody's skill background as obtained inside a foreign country. If they do find out, claim you didn't know. Just make sure the experience is not on your "official" copy of the visa worker's resume. It is an easy lie to get away with.

# Take Advantage of Situation - Work the H-1B overtime or weekends without extra pay. Complaining risks getting the H-1B sent home, so they usually keep quiet. Plus, they may not understand how our legal system works or be intimidated by a process foreign to them. (US money is worth more to them due to exchange rates when they eventually go back home, and thus they often just live with labor abuses without complaint in order reduce risk while obtaining their financial nest-egg.)

# Tinker with Titles - Information technology (IT) titles are often vague, inconsistent, and overlapping. It is hard to penalize a company for using the wrong IT title on an application form because there practically is no such thing as an objectively "wrong title" in IT. Plus, most IT work involves a mixture of a lot of different skills, such as programming, analysis, debugging, customer support, documentation, etc. There are no consensus metrics for categorizing these based on ratios or percentage of usage.

# Outsource the Buck - A big company can contract the H-1B from a small, fly-by-night company that keeps a portion of an H-1B's pay, delays paychecks, does not pay overtime, etc. The big company that contracts out is then not exposed to the risk of dubious activity. They can claim that they did not know the contractor was abusing the visa workers (and may not know). Such small contracting companies are often staffed by people from the H-1B's originating country such that if they are caught or risk being caught, the company folds up and goes back to their home country where they can do other business. The risk of real penalties is very small. (Cross-country white-collar crime investigation tends to be poorly coordinated between countries involved.)

# Shred Citizen Resumes - Companies applying for visas are required to place an ad in a typical job listings source and review received resumes or applications for qualified citizens. Government inspectors may ask to see such resumes. However, if somebody takes citizens resume and shreds them, nobody besides the shredder will ever know they existed.

# Lopsided Interviews - Government inspectors don't sit through most live interviews. Thus, a company trying to weed out citizens can simply ask tough questions when interviewing the citizen, but be easy on the visa candidate.

Re:Why would anyone want an H-1B worker?

[Zheng Yi Quan]

Actually I do hiring, and our lawyers have advised me that for anti-discrimination reasons, I can't ask potential employees whether they are U.S. citizens--only whether they can work legally in the U.S. I don't remember if that's federal or state law or if it's just to protect us against lawsuits, but the end result is about the same. The only reason I would deliberately try to hire an H-1B worker is if that worker were some kind of superstar who would bring so much value that it would justify the legal costs and wrangling. Otherwise they're simply not worth the effort.

Re:Bottom line: We don't need H1-B workers today

[russotto]

[QUOTE]If there are hundreds of *qualified* people out there, I'd like to see them. We're trying to hire, and so far not much luck. I certainly don't see hundreds of resumes.[/QUOTE]

Then you're probably doing a reasonably good job of separating the wheat from the chaff -- and throwing away the wheat. Lots of ways you can do this. You could be demanding a set of skills which nobody has, so only poseurs apply. You could be demanding a set of skills which nobody at the professional level you're asking for for has. Your job ads might hint that you aren't a good employer to work for. If you have someone pre-screening the resume, they could be doing it badly, again letting only poseurs through. Etc.

Re:Some more info

[NormalVisual]

And then there's the method preferred by a previous employer of mine - have a Sri Lankan CEO that has good buddies in the Sri Lankan IT services industry, and mysteriously have people shipped in without even having posted the openings. When I started there, our department had four Americans, one Pakistani, and one Bulgarian. The Pakistani and Bulgarian both were U.S. citizens. Five years later when I left, we had four Americans (3 good people, 1 basket case), two Pakistanis (one H1-B) who were a little above average, one Indian who was largely useless (H1-B), and IIRC, 7 Sri Lankans (all H1-B, all pretty decent). I personally handed in no less than five resumes of qualified locals that I knew for two of positions that *were* advertised, and not a single one was contacted. "Qualified" meaning they had the required skills (and I could personally vouch for their competence), most of the "good to have" skills, were available, and were willing to work for industry standard wages. The "industry standard wages" part was the kicker - I found out later at least two of the Sri Lankans were working for a little more than half of what I was, when their experience and abilities warranted pay on par with mine. They had also told me that they were bound to the company by restrictive contracts that would end up costing them thousands of dollars if they left, but felt that they had to do it if they wanted to eventually get a green card.

The H1-B program is a joke. It's often not fair to the Americans that get displaced, and it's often not fair to the visa holders, who in my experience can end up in situations resembling indentured servitude. The only parties that consistently benefit from it are those unscrupulous companies who aren't willing to follow the law, since the government does next to nothing to enforce the requirements placed on employers.

Re:Some more info-Back slash.

[HiThere]

Historically China has not been a particularly aggressive country. They have tended to be more inward looking...rather like the US before WWI. (Though even then we were less isolationist than China has usually been.)

I see a strong possibility that China will become economically dominant. I don't really see that they are militaristically aggressive. We won't like it if China is on top, as they won't have ANY concern about how we feel. This, however, is much different from painting them as militaristic world conquerors...that's much more like Britain (and thus like the US, though we also tend towards commercial dominance).

Don't think that everybody is the same. They really aren't, and the history of people's cultures has a life of it's own. Mao was a Chinese Emperor, and the current government appears to be a mandrinate. I expect their notions of importance are very inward focused...and if you allow a general victories, then he becomes a dangerous political opponent. (Well, I'm no Chinese History scholar. That last bit was mainly from the Byzantine Empire, but I do know that China has has such concerns before.)

Re:Loving it

[Anonymous Coward]

The employer will have to withhold Social Security, Medicare, SDI, etc. from the paychecks of foreign workers even though the foreign workers are not eligible for any of the benefits. That is, foreign workers pay the same amount of taxes (federal, state, and the various "other" taxes like social secrity, medicae, etc) without the same amount of benefits. It's one of those "penalties for being foreign" deal, part and parcel with the opportunity to work in the U.S.

Re:Loving it

[theshowmecanuck]

I worked for about 5 years total on TN visas in the 'States. That is a NAFTA free trade treaty and applies to Canadian and American professionals allowing them to work in America and Canada respectively. I paid unemployment insurance, social security tax and the company covered health care benefits. I had better healthcare coverage in the U.S. than I do in Canada by the way... as long as I was employed... ).

I am pretty sure the U.K. has a rule for some types of emegrants that says if you keep employed, keep your nose clean, and pay your own way, you can stay for up to five years (which may be extended... and you can apply for citizenship after around five years).

Here is one of the paragraphs from the Immigration and Nationality Directorate:

...(v) will be able to maintain and accommodate himself and any dependants adequately without recourse to public funds; and...

Re:Loving it

[arivanov]

In the UK all such taxes and Social Security contributions are payed out of a work permit holder salary regardless of the fact that the work permit holder is not entitled to any of them.

Effectively in the UK all foreign workers subsidise the native's social security budget with their contributions for 4+ years. Situation in other EU countries is not much different. The difference is only the time you are obliged to subsidise the local xenophobic skinheads who are too lazy and/or ignorant to get a permanent job so they live off state benefits instead. It is 10+ years in France, 7? (not sure) in Germany and 5+ in most other European countries.

I am not aware of all the complexities of the US tax quagmire, but I would not be surprised if it is any different. If the companies rip the off the H1B people, the state which allows it is quite likely to try to have a go at that as well. After all they are effectively a form of slaves. If they open their mouth they are chucked out of the country right away.

While for an European getting kicked out will not really matter, for most H1Bs from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc it is actually a matter of family pride. "My son has been accepted to work in theUS is a lot of kudos points for a small village or a slumland family. Being force-sent back is major strike to the family pride in some places. As a result some of these people will go to all means to stay and the fact that they are staying silent about being ripped off is not surprising.

Some Myths About H1B

[Naum]

1. H1B candidates are needed because there are a shortage of American high tech professionals. No, incorrect, H1B has been used to displace American workers and it has undercut median wage for programmers and engineers. I've witnessed firsthand at multiple companies the saga of staff replacement with a mix of offshore programmers/improted NIV programmers. I've seen company programs that recruited and promoted internal talent scrapped so that $said_company could join the race to the bottom.
   
   
2. H1B candidates are paid prevailing wage. True for some, but most are shuffled about and treated like chattel, in worse fashion that the traditional American bodyshops treated their personnel. And a H1B candidate is much more restricted in job mobility than an American would be. Yes, there has been a recent uptick in contract/job advertisements but the pay rates, outside of specialty realms, is still total suckage. Rates/salaries lower than I made 12+ years ago. If there is such a strong demand being unfulfilled, why are not salaries/contract rates increasing significantly?
   
   
3. H1B candidates are "highly skilled" professionals, and are greatly desired and valued. In some cases, yes, but for the most part, these spots in no way can be construed as "highly skilled" -- again, in my experience, candidates sent to the U.S. might have had resumes boasting of requisite skills and experience, but when I met the candidate after his/her plane flight to the states, it would become readily apparent that their "skills and experience" consisted solely of a training curricullum overseas and a perusal of manuals on the plane ride over. Yet, as stated, we're doing a disservice to our own youth -- I realize many programmers opt for sexier type application devlopment like creating and deploying web applications, but even at the pay alotted to the offshore "bodyshop" vendors, these would be excellent jobs and career opportunities for young Americans. I have no problem with H1B or even citizen status for field luminaries like Linus Torvalds or others of genius level. But I believe it's a better national strategy to fill entry level positions with Americans, not foreigners.
   
   
4. Companies are legally prevented from replacing Americans with NIV workers.. Totally untrue, as if one takes time to research will discover. There are other legal provisions regarding how the H1B program operates, but enforcement is nil. Campaign contributions from "American" firms sway legislators into swallowing that corporate motives are benevolent. Employees are outright lied to. Again, I've experienced this firsthand.

But there is a dynamic at work here, namely that since "American" firms have invested so much (money, resources, strategy, time, etc....) in offshore vendors and importing NIV programmers they have created a defacto dependency on the paradigm. As they've chased Americans out of the field, in preference of a cheaper foreign factory approach, they now are much more reliant upon foreign engineers and programmers. Most of my colleagues have moved on to other career fields or they simply are hanging on as SMEs, marking the days to retirement. It's no wonder that computer and engineering student enrollments are declining -- there'll always be young Americans who answer to a calling despite potential career conditions and ramifications (i.e., see teaching), but statistics are now bearing out that the majority will pursue a more fruitful career path, both in terms of short term financial reward and long term job stability.

Ironically, or comically, or tragically (depending on your particular perspective!), from what I understand from conversing with friends who are directing such offshore/NIV programmer teams, the offshore vendors don't seem to acknowledge the great gift bestowed upon them. Instead, they've fouled it up, focused entirely on short term profits, managing their operations like multi-level marketing schemes. Shuffling workers to maintain a subserviant force, yet failing and leaving core systems of our largest companies in a sordid state of disrepair.

Re:Nothing's changed here in 20 years...

[ThurstonMoore]

These "Communists" fought a war in WV during 1921 so you would not have a corporate slave. If it were not for these "Communists" (I believe Socialist would be a better term) we would all be working 100 hrs per week for worthless pieces of script to be spent in the company store where prices were much higher than they would be in a normal store. These so called "Communist" picketers are only exercising there right to free speech that seems to upset you. Who is the real Communist?

H1B visas are so last year. Now it's L1B

[Animats]

The trend now is towards L1B visas. These were something the US originally lobbied for, to allow Americans working for US multinationals to work abroad. But it works both ways. If a multinational company has operations in the US, they can move employees to their US locations under an L1B visa as an intracompany transfer.

L1B visas offer many advantages for the employer:

• There's no "cap"; any number can be issued.
• There's no need to advertise the job in the US.
• There's no "prevailing wage" requirement.
• The employee is totally controlled by the employer; they can't change jobs on an L1B visa, and if they quit, they must leave the US immediately.
• Big companies (1000 US employees or more) can apply for a "blanket L1 visa", and then move employees into the US freely.

There's a requirement that the employee had to be employed by the company for a year before coming to the US, and they're supposed to have "specialized knowledge", but that's about it.

So this has become a favorite tool of body shops; hire in India, make them work in a call center for a year, then send them to the US to work cheap.

Re:Training Damage

[rollingcalf]

"What if it applied to *all* careers, not just IT? If my doctors, auto-mechanics, and lawyers were all imported, then maybe my cost of living wouldn't be so high. The burden of free trade goes on IT workers but the benefits go to careers not targeted by visa workers."

It does apply to nearly all careers that aren't unskilled labor. Doctors, lawyers, accountants, actuaries, and even fashion models can and have been hired with H1B visas. It just happens that companies are more willing to use H1B for programmers than for other types of jobs.

See http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/howdoi/h1b.htm [uscis.gov]

What is an H-1B?

The H-1B is a nonimmigrant classification used by an alien who will be employed temporarily in a specialty occupation or as a fashion model of distinguished merit and ability.

What is a specialty occupation?

A specialty occupation requires theoretical and practical application of a body of specialized knowledge along with at least a bachelor's degree or its equivalent. For example, architecture, engineering, mathematics, physical sciences, social sciences, medicine and health, education, business specialties, accounting, law, theology, and the arts are specialty occupations.