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String Theory a Disaster for Physics? 737

BlueCup writes "Mathematician Peter Woit of Columbia University describes string theory in his book Not Even Wrong,. He calls the theory 'a disaster for physics.' Which would have been a fringe opinion a few years ago, but now, after years of string theory books reaching the best sellers list, he has company."
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String Theory a Disaster for Physics?

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  • by darkrowan ( 976992 ) on Friday June 23, 2006 @10:01PM (#15594088) Homepage
    ... not when one side, his own, acts of the panties are in a wad.

    /Thats my opinion, I could be wrong
  • Mod parent up... (Score:1, Insightful)

    by PhineusJWhoopee ( 926130 ) on Friday June 23, 2006 @10:07PM (#15594127)
    Exactly - String "Theory" is not testable at the current time, so it is largely an academic wank-fest.

    ed
  • Call me when (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rolfwind ( 528248 ) on Friday June 23, 2006 @10:09PM (#15594137)
    String Theory attempts an actual prediction and then gets it correct.

    Till then, it's a bunch of fancy gobbedly gook as far as I'm concerned.
  • by MyLongNickName ( 822545 ) on Friday June 23, 2006 @10:09PM (#15594140) Journal
    *Sigh* One of the biggest problems of string theory is it is damn near unprovable. It could be true. It might not be. But if the facts don't fit, you just modify the theory again. And yes, this is oversimplification, but not by much.

    Makes me wonder if we are near the edge of what humans can know. Growing up, I took it on fiath that it was just a matter of time before we knew it all. Now, I am not so sure. Perhaps our monkey brains simply can't conceive of the true nature of reality.
  • String "theory" (Score:5, Insightful)

    by zephc ( 225327 ) on Friday June 23, 2006 @10:09PM (#15594147)
    I've never felt very comfortable with string theory. Not that it threatens some deep-held belief (I have few of those), but that it seems mostly like conjecture, trying to shoehorn increasingly complex theories to fit some phenomena that is probably explainable in a simpler manner which we just yet haven't found. Of course, physics often doesn't adhere to common sense.
  • A Powerful Theory (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Steve B ( 42864 ) on Friday June 23, 2006 @10:10PM (#15594148)
    "When it comes to extending our knowledge of the laws of nature, we have made no real headway" in 30 years, writes physicist Lee Smolin of the Perimeter Institute in Waterloo, Canada, in his book, "The Trouble with Physics," also due in September. "It's called hitting the wall."
    He blames string theory for this "crisis in particle physics," the branch of physics that tries to explain the most fundamental forces and building blocks of the world.
    String theory, which took off in 1984....

    Does string theory explain how its own effects are able to reach back in time a decade before its creation?

  • Re:Wait, what? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ZombieWomble ( 893157 ) on Friday June 23, 2006 @10:13PM (#15594166)
    Okay, so because a theory (or more an idea or almost a philosiphy) cannot be disproven, it becomes a disaster for modern science?

    Well, yes, because that's not how science works. Theories have to be put forward which make predictions which can be meaningfully tested. If there is no way to actually test it, then it is, in effect, impossible to develop - by definition it cannot be wrong, and therefore is effectively complete, and science is 'finished', more or less. If such an idea ends up being the dominant trend, then yes, it would be something of a disaster.

    I suppose we should stop looking for what started the universe, since we can't disprove the existance of God or anything. What a load of BS.

    Would you class the statement "Everything happens because God says so" as scientific? I would hope not - such a statement is inherently impossible to scrutinise or critique, as "God did it" is, in this theory, a perfectly valid response. Science does not advance by pursuing ideas of that sort, but rather putting forward testable theories, and working out ways to stress them and see if their predictions hold, and refining them as a result.

    That some ideas cannot be disproven is not a problem for science - instead we content ourselves with studying those that can be.

  • Re:String Theory (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Wonko the Sane ( 25252 ) * on Friday June 23, 2006 @10:15PM (#15594176) Journal
    In fact, "theory" is a misnomer, since unlike general relativity theory or quantum theory, string theory is not a concise set of solvable equations describing the behavior of the physical world. It's more of an idea or a framework.


    I think the article says it best. If we keep letting people use the term "theory" too loosely it just gives more ammunition to the intelligent design idi... proponents.

    In truth neither intelligent design or string "theory" is really a scientific theory as neither makes testable predictions yet. Maybe string theory will in the future but until then it is just an idea.
  • by Soulfarmer ( 607565 ) * on Friday June 23, 2006 @10:16PM (#15594185) Homepage Journal
    As I know it, physics does not change based on how we understand it, our understandings of physics might change based on itself. Am I being too narrowminded here? How the hell could anything be a disaster for something that exists with or without us having a theory about it.
  • by postbigbang ( 761081 ) on Friday June 23, 2006 @10:19PM (#15594204)
    String theory is almost recursive.... a snake eating its tail.

    TFA is right in one thing-- it's lead to physicist bigotry.... an increasingly inbred idea that string theory rules and all else drools, but in dimension 9. So many things are unsolved.... and Hawking has helped but the mathematicians that used to rule physicists are finding themselves in a reverse role, where expostulations must be found to match equations which were pimped for expostulation.

    It's like curve-fitting, but with unprovable geometry, not Euclidian and not non-Euclidian.
  • Re:String Theory (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Wonko the Sane ( 25252 ) * on Friday June 23, 2006 @10:23PM (#15594228) Journal
    It's not a theory yet until it makes a testable prediction. The difference is it has the potential to be one whereas intelligent design does not.
  • by Tablizer ( 95088 ) on Friday June 23, 2006 @10:25PM (#15594236) Journal
    Maybe Intelligent Design can get some respect if other hard-to-test and long-shot hypotheses are allowed to be called "science". Just because backers tend to be religious does not by itself make it wrong. If a Darwin or SETI cult formed, would evolution or SETI's hypothesis grow less likely? Human bias does not change the truth values of the universe. If biased people want to hunt down evidence for long-shot hypotheses, so be it.
  • Re:Wait, what? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Tatarize ( 682683 ) on Friday June 23, 2006 @10:37PM (#15594293) Homepage
    >>Okay, so because a theory (or more an idea or almost a philosiphy) cannot be disproven, it becomes a disaster for modern science?

    If it can't be disproven, it's not really scientific. And thus claims a lot of focus that should be given elsewhere. Thus, since it's not scientific it should be disregarded.

    >>I suppose we should stop looking for what started the universe, since we can't disprove the existance of God or anything. What a load of BS.

    No. This claim is the opposite claim. If we were to accept the existance of God it would also be a disaster for modern science. It's not science. It allows for every answer and is not testible. In your example String Theory is Existence of God. The point is that we should properly disregard both as non-science and focus on other things. They don't make any testible claims. They aren't science. And if you sit around thinking about them, you are just wasting your time.
  • by Valdrax ( 32670 ) on Friday June 23, 2006 @10:39PM (#15594303)
    Worked for Michio Kaku.
  • Re:Gravitons (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ResidntGeek ( 772730 ) on Friday June 23, 2006 @10:42PM (#15594320) Journal
    Yes, good point... because gravitons are detectable and all...
  • Some Comments (Score:3, Insightful)

    by shma ( 863063 ) on Friday June 23, 2006 @10:49PM (#15594348)

    First off, I should point out to those that aren't familiar with the world of physics that Lee Smolin is one of the principal advocates, at least in the public discourse, of Loop Quantum Gravity, a competitor to String Theory. That is certainly not to say he's bashing string theory for his own benefit, though. His arguements are all quite sound.

    Secondly, in my own experience, speaking to physics professors about string theory, we're starting to see some saturation in the number of students willing to work on topics in string theory for their PhDs, and as jobs become more scarce for those who enter into the field (after all if they don't advance with predictions, there's less and less to do), we'll see more people entering into other areas, ro examining other theories.

    And finally, I should point out that the last line, That string theory abandoned testable predictions may be its ultimate betrayal of science , is extremely insulting. I'm sure there's nothing string theorists would like more than to come up with a testable hypothesis that could be tested immediately, but the fact is that it's a difficult subject. Just because we can't test it now is no reason to start crying "pseudo-science".
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 23, 2006 @10:49PM (#15594350)
    ...you cannot fully understand the machine from within the machine.
  • by Black Parrot ( 19622 ) on Friday June 23, 2006 @11:10PM (#15594439)
    > it seems mostly like conjecture, trying to shoehorn increasingly complex theories to fit some phenomena that is probably explainable in a simpler manner which we just yet haven't found

    What if the universe is so complex that there's no explanation that's both simple and correct?
  • by Jerk City Troll ( 661616 ) on Friday June 23, 2006 @11:12PM (#15594449) Homepage

    According to string “theory”, the universe is a safe where you have combination but the lock is on the inside.

  • by MillionthMonkey ( 240664 ) on Friday June 23, 2006 @11:24PM (#15594488)
    Maybe Intelligent Design can get some respect if other hard-to-test and long-shot hypotheses are allowed to be called "science".

    Doubt it. Both string theory and Intelligent Design may be unfalsifiable, but then they are also unfalsifiable for different reasons. A major goal of string theory was to make the theory falsifiable, by looking for low energy phenomena that could be predicted by it. The string theorists failed, because their theory takes place in what turns out to be an unobservable realm with no observable predictions, but at least they were trying. Intelligent Design's unfalsifiablity was built into it by design.

    String theory could still surprise you. They might make unexpected progress and come up with some string-theory derived explanation for some low energy phenomenon, like the mass of the proton. But Intelligent design will never successfully predict a thing since by nature it is not a predictive theory.
  • Re:Wait, what? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by wrf3 ( 314267 ) on Friday June 23, 2006 @11:26PM (#15594495) Homepage
    If we were to accept the existance of God it would also be a disaster for modern science. It's not science. It allows for every answer and is not testible.

    How does this follow? "God did it" and "how did God do it?" are two different things. I find it really interesting that the former excludes the latter. Some historians of science have argued that it was because of the idea of a rational God that the idea arose that nature was ordered and could be fathomed, particularly through observation and testing. Wasn't it Kepler who studied the heavens in order to "think God's thoughts after Him"? So the idea that God and science are incompatible is, to borrow a phrase, "not even wrong". It's simply a by product of the anti-intellectual, anti-historical, "don't offend me" nonsense that passes for thinking these days.

    Science flourished within a theistic worldview in Europe and elsewhere, so I don't see how you can support the idea that God is a disaster when it comes to science. But maybe by "modern" you mean "completely materialistic". And of course that's true. It's the age old dilemma: which came first? The naturalist says, "In the beginning were the particles...". The Christian says, "In the beginning was the Word..." And never the 'twain shall meet.

    Oh, what the hell, let's go for troll moderation. I'll go so far as to argue that denying the existence of God is actually hindering science. Why? Because atheism a priori denies the existence of an intelligence far greater than man's and therefore denies the possibility of design in nature. Therefore, the notion of using science to identify and measure design isn't considered (except, perhaps, with SETI. But aliens are metaphysically less scary than God. There's no evidence for them yet the search goes on.) Nor are information theory, computer science, and complexity theory being applied to natural, especially living, systems. Why not? Who knows what we'll find?
  • by dr. loser ( 238229 ) on Friday June 23, 2006 @11:29PM (#15594505)
    A real concern is that the "landscape" (the fact the string theory is really a collection of theories that could have something like 10^500 (yes, that's a googol to the fifth power) possible vacua as solutions) renders string theory nearly unfalsifiable. It's not that they can't predict anything. Indeed, they've predicted everything. If the LHC at CERN started up tomorrow and found a Higgs boson with a mass of 220 GeV, and some kind of light supersymmetric partner at 260 GeV, they could claim that's consistent with string theory. Heck, if the Tevatron folks at Fermilab found a fourth family of leptons next week, the string community could claim to understand that, too. I would love to see just one example of something that could credibly be found at the LHC that string theory can't explain. Just one.
  • by Stalyn ( 662 ) on Friday June 23, 2006 @11:35PM (#15594526) Homepage Journal
    ST is an attempt to unify QFT with GR. In that setting QFT and GR are a consequence of ST. However string theorists have discovered something called the landscape. In which not only is QFT and GR possible but so are 10^500 other types of universes and the theories that describe them.

    This is a huge problem. Of course there is the possibility that finding the ultimate theory of everything is impossible and this would be the physics dual to Godel's incompleteness result. Which I'm sure sure scares the shit out of many physicists.
  • Re:String Theory (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Raindance ( 680694 ) <johnsonmx@@@gmail...com> on Friday June 23, 2006 @11:47PM (#15594578) Homepage Journal
    Yeah. And perhaps more important than the funding, many of the brightest physicists are going into String Theory- which, if it does turn out to be a dead-end, is a *lot* of waste, no matter the silver lining.

    ichin4's comment further down the page was rather insightful.
  • by UserGoogol ( 623581 ) on Friday June 23, 2006 @11:56PM (#15594604)
    Intelligent design is a bit of a lower quality than String Theory. String theory is in principle testable, it's just that the tests are somewhat out of our ability at the moment. How on Earth do you test ID? An intelligent designer can do whatever the hell he wants. In order for Intelligent Design to be testable, it needs to postulate a particular designer with particular goals and particular mechanisms for effecting the genetic code of organism. More problematically, the traditional creator of "God" would not do, because a big part of the traditional definition of God is that his will is ineffable.

    I'll admit that Intelligent design is not an inherently terrible idea. It's not impossible that we might find "fingerprints" of intelligent design, and that this might lead to trying to investigate the idea more closely. Furthermore, investigating how human "intelligent design" has effected the evolution of other species is certainly a worthy subject for research, and something which people do research. But as it is currently formulated, Intelligent Design is not testable enough to be anywhere near the realm of "science." At least String Theory tries.
  • by The_Wilschon ( 782534 ) on Friday June 23, 2006 @11:57PM (#15594607) Homepage
    Rate yourself, please. Report your score in another post on this thread. http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html [ucr.edu] PS: IAAP
  • by A nonymous Coward ( 7548 ) * on Friday June 23, 2006 @11:59PM (#15594614)
    Time to confess, boy.
  • Re:Wait, what? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by HiThere ( 15173 ) * <charleshixsn@@@earthlink...net> on Saturday June 24, 2006 @12:00AM (#15594620)
    Science did not flourish until the Deists decided that God was an honest pinball player. He built the machine, and he flipped the levers, but he didn't tilt the box or otherwise "miraculously" influence the flight of the ball. He left that all up to the initial starting conditions (and how far he pulled back the shot lever).

    OK, that's an oversimplification of what they were claiming...but it's got the essence. And with those restricitions on "God did it!", scientific research became feasible. Without it... sorry. Can't do it.

  • by MustardMan ( 52102 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @12:08AM (#15594659)
    Ah, string theory elitism... "you can't understand it because you need this, that, and the other thing".

    Here's the problem, though... I don't NEED TO UNDERSTAND IT! I don't NEED to understand UFO theories or ghost stories either. In THIRTY YEARS string theory has not produced a single testable prediction. That isn't physics, and it sure as hell isn't a theory. String theory might be a fascinating topic. It might be mathematically beautiful. And it might be out of my reach due to my complete lack of desire to understand its nuances. However, until it starts to predict something, it isn't physics. If people want to study that garbage, they should move to the mathematics department. I'd respect string theorists a whole lot more if they weren't misrepresenting what it is they do.
  • by QuantumG ( 50515 ) <qg@biodome.org> on Saturday June 24, 2006 @12:13AM (#15594676) Homepage Journal
    They're two totally different things. If I tell you all cats have tails you can bring me as many cats with tails as you like and it will not prove that all cats have tails. You can bring me a cat without a tail and it will prove that not all cats have tails, but it still won't prove that all cats have tails. Nothing can prove that all cats have tails. That's science buddy.

  • Re:statistics (Score:5, Insightful)

    by The_Wilschon ( 782534 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @12:16AM (#15594696) Homepage
    The real issue here is that particle physicists have received no "surprises" in many years -- perhaps the only genuinely unexpected recent data point being the non-zero value of the cosmological constant.

    Excuse me? You should try keeping up with experiment if you're going to make broad statements like this. Minos, up here at fermilab, recently discovered that neutrinos do in fact have mass. This was suspected a year or few ago, which was why Minos was built, but is nonetheless quite surprising. It is surprising because it is really the first definitive measurement which is nearly unquestionably outside the standard model. (I don't need to tell you this, I suppose, but others will read this too: The standard model assumes explicitly that neutrinos have no mass at all.)

    Anyway, the problem that most experimentalists, such as myself, see with String Theory is that in some ways it is a step backwards from the standard model. It is purported to be "parameterless", which contrasts with the plethora of unconstrained parameters that the standard model contains. However, this is really only a bit of sleight of hand. Instead of numerical parameters, which are (relatively) easy to measure, and continuous, we now have the topology of space, which is discrete (no smooth change from one topology to the next) and quite difficult to measure, and embodies immensely more variation than the parameters of the standard model.
  • by node 3 ( 115640 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @12:31AM (#15594745)
    It very much is science, it's just not a proper theory. Perhaps "not yet" or "not ever" a proper theory, no one can say which is correct at the moment.

    Science, on the other hand, does not require one wait for the finished product. Working on string theory is working on science. It's just not complete, nor even all that useful currently. It's still in the early stages--a stage that is rarely so long and drawn out as it is in this case.

    For example, when devising special relativity, Einstein's theory was, at some point, still in the state string theory is in currently--that is, significantly conceptual, with a lot of math and refining yet to be done, and early on was entirely untestable making no real predictions. He was still engaged in science during that stage. That doesn't mean that special relativity was useful yet, nor do I mean to imply that string theory is correct or will bear fruit, just that even at this early stage it is legitimate to call it science.
  • Re:Wait, what? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ChrisGilliard ( 913445 ) <christopher.gilliard@nOSpAM.gmail.com> on Saturday June 24, 2006 @12:32AM (#15594750) Homepage
    Well, it turns out Newton's theory of gravitation is flawed and that Einstien's theory of general theory of relativity better explained things. So, following your logic that means that because Newton's ideas were flawed they were a waste of time. If Newton's theory wasn't discovered would Einstein be able to come up with his theory of general relativity? Even if a theory is proven to be false, it can still be a useful way of looking at things (e.g. F = ma). Another example would be the model of the atom. Our theory about how atoms work has evolved over the years, just because it turns out that all of our models have been innacurate, that doesn't mean they weren't useful in the evolutionary process of understanding.
  • Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @12:33AM (#15594753)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • How silly. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Moofie ( 22272 ) <lee@ringofsat u r n.com> on Saturday June 24, 2006 @12:56AM (#15594820) Homepage
    An idea cannot be "a disaster for physics". Scientists who think that theories are more important than observation and reasoning are "a disaster for physics". Fortunately, it's a disaster with a long history, and physics, somehow, continues to muddle forward.

    Good way to sell books. Sloppy way to think.
  • by ultracool ( 883965 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @01:09AM (#15594858)
    If you want to venture beyond particle physics, there is plenty of opportunity for young theorists (and experimentalists) in fields such as cold atom physics - Bose-Einstein condensation and the like. That is a very rich field to be in. This is an area I never even knew about when I was younger. I came across it in my third year as an undergrad and it had me hooked!
  • by tonymtdew ( 976074 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @01:39AM (#15594945)
    "But one thing they haven't done is coax a single prediction from their theory. In fact, "theory" is a misnomer, since unlike general relativity theory or quantum theory, string theory is not a concise set of solvable equations describing the behavior of the physical world. It's more of an idea or a framework."

    Something that is a concise set of solvable equations describing the behavior of the physical world is a LAW!

    An idea or framework is a THEORY!

    This guy has a PhD? Just because something is too small to see, too difficult to imagine, too abstract to think is possible- DOESN'T mean it should be dismissed because headway has been rough the past 30 years! Did Physics become invented in the past 10 years? 100 years? or thousands of years!?
  • by egomaniac ( 105476 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @01:42AM (#15594957) Homepage
    Just FYI, it is quite likely that Fermat didn't actually have a proof for his own theorem. Fermat eventually published a proof for the case of n=4 -- and why on earth would he do that if he a proof for all n>2?

    It's much more likely that he believed he had a proof, scribbled a note to that effect, and later realized that his proof was flawed. This is quite plausible, as there are several ways to seemingly prove Fermat's Last Theorem, but which in fact contain subtle flaws.
  • Re:Wait, what? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by SirSlud ( 67381 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @01:48AM (#15594969) Homepage
    > quantify intelligence

    I just threw up in my mouth. The purpose of the universe is to try and get as close to passing the Turing test as possible, but mathematically, nothing in the universe ever can. We're in a fishbowl .. you can't quantify intelligence because intelligence isn't and will never be measured in units.

    The point of science is not to quantify intelligence, the point of science is to predict things. You can't quantify intelligence, you can only ballpark it in the short-term in your neighbourhood, and change the definition of it as the universe changes around us.

    > Chance or God. Are there any other choices?

    That depends on whether or not you enjoy false dichotomies. Of course there are other choices. A fucking shitload of them. I love how people so incredibly dependant on believing that they are living at the apex of human knowledge, or believing that our species will even be around at some point to learn the answer. Who the fuck cares? Random chance? An all powerful being not created by anything else that was more powerful? Could you pick two even more unlikely edge-cases?
  • by IlliniECE ( 970260 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @01:49AM (#15594973)
    A very good point. However, what a cruel joke of nature it would be that our monkey brains are just strong enough to question whether they themselves are powerful enough to comprehend the reality, but not strong enough to actually *understand* it. What a sad end for humanity.
  • by honkycat ( 249849 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @01:53AM (#15594985) Homepage Journal
    Inertia -- the idea that an object in motion tends to stay in motion unless disturbed -- predates Newton and is generally credited to Galileo, [mind.net]. Newton's better credited with connecting the moon's orbit with a the gravity that pulls an apple to the ground and with putting these concepts into a mathematical framework that allows quantitative calculations. Oh and inventing calculus (but don't let Leibniz hear you say that).
  • by spetey ( 164477 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @01:57AM (#15594996) Homepage
    "Untestable! Unfalsifiable!" This is a common refrain from string theory critics, and even from many string theory fans - and it really bugs me. I'm a philosopher of science, and I say: forget falsifiability!

    Well, don't completely forget falsifiability - but don't let it be the whole story. Falsifiability was already outdated philosophy of science 50 years ago. Its main problem is what's sometimes called the "Quine-Duhem Thesis" - roughly speaking, any treasured theory can be made to fit any evidence, as long as you're willing to adjust enough auxiliary hypotheses. Here's an ordinary example: when your high school science lab experiments didn't fit predictions, your results didn't get published in Science for falsifying the theory at hand. Instead, quite reasonably, you drew the conclusion that something wasn't quite right with the instruments, etc., and you kept the original theory. The tricky question is to figure out when it's reasonable to excuse recalcitrant data, and when you're unreasonably trying to rescue a theory that's just wrong. Intelligent design advocates can lay out all sorts of falsification criteria, and then make similar excuses should unhappy data come their way. So does that make ID a science? (If on the other hand you insist that only actual falsification makes something a science, then only theories we no longer believe can count as scientific!)

    It's too easy in all sciences - not just string theory - to make theories "supported" by the data. Given this problem, the name of the science game is to find the simplest explanation that fits the data. It's very hard to say exactly what counts as a simpler theory, but some theories are clearly less simple. Compare the hypothesis that "the butler did it" to the hypothesis that "unknown sneaky aliens planted all that evidence to make it look like the butler did it." Both hypotheses fit the evidence equally well, but the latter is clearly less simple, and we normally never even consider it for a moment.

    String theory explains all the data, from quantum physics to relativity, with a simplicity that's hard to beat. (Its elegance is so good, we're apparently willing to posit 11 dimensions for it!) That's what makes it a legitimate scientific theory. Of course it would be great to have more relevant data, to see if string theory can accommodate them simply too. But just because we can't get such data (now, or maybe ever) doesn't spoil the current scientific status of the theory.
  • God Theory? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Slur ( 61510 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @02:15AM (#15595024) Homepage Journal
    The existence of God can only be proved subjectively, and even then it's still a matter of interpreting a numinous subjective experience, and deciding to name it "God." And you could still be fooling yourself. Maybe it wasn't THE GOD, but just A REALLY MIGHTY GODLIKE ENTITY. How would you know the difference?

    Anyhow, before one decides whether to believe in "God" it's a good idea to have a definition of what He is so one knows what to look for.

    In my case, I believe God would have to be utterly transcendent, and an immaterial non-composite entity. In other words, something nonexistent. Can something nonexistent exist?

    On the other hand, I also believe that God is all there is, and there is nothing that is not God. If one could take a step back and look at *everything* one could observe the totality of God. However, the All is both eternal and infinite. One could not ever see the totality, nor indeed can "God" ever actually be realized, because the totality is in constant flux.

    Since God is all that exists and also the utter transcendence of existence, the union of many paradoxes would be required to fully appreciate the nature of "God." Such a mind transcends - and encompasses - reason, and hence it is beyond knowledge, proof, and expressibility in language.

    Language and reason are tools for sharing experience, but they are not the only means. I may not be able to describe God, but I can point you to the door beyond which you can experience God, and then you can know for yourself.

    Science - String Theory especially - is something like that too. The value of science is that it gives us the means to test and manipulate reality. Within the macroscopic realm it is expressible via the conventions of common experience. But as we get into quantum physics and string theory the ideas become uncanny. When you try to explain the relation of a string to space-time, the common experience of cause preceding effect no longer applies. So we need new language to express these new experiences. At a certain point these "experiences" may well become utterly inexpressible.

    But perhaps, just like the experience of union with the Ultimate, there is a conventional means to point the right direction.

    .
  • by Staale Nordlie ( 943189 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @02:49AM (#15595100)
    Nothing can prove that all cats have tails.

    Nonsense. All you have to do is examine all cats and see if they all have tails.

    (Of course, from a certain philosophical standpoint nothing can be proven. I'm assuming "prove" actually means something outside of a high-flying philosophical discussion.)
  • Re:Man... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Eric Smith ( 4379 ) * on Saturday June 24, 2006 @03:43AM (#15595212) Homepage Journal
    That tends to make me think that we do in fact, have a pretty good grasp of the laws of physics. IMO, the only thing we're missing is the "gravity to the rest of it" connection
    It's entirely possible that our current "pretty good grasp of the laws of physics" is only a crude approximation of how things really work, in the same way that Newtonian physics was found to be. Which is to say that it's obviously useful even though it it's only accurate within limited circumstances. Unifying gravity with the nuclear forces may invalidate our current gravitational and quantum theories.
  • Re:Man... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by kestasjk ( 933987 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @04:31AM (#15595297) Homepage
    Humanity has been thinking it has got an almost complete understanding of the rules of physics for a few centuries now.
  • by Krokant ( 956646 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @04:44AM (#15595322)
    Simple theory? Did you ever sit down and listen to two string theorists discuss ? IAAPANAPOS (I am a physicist and not a philosopher of science), but it seems that falsifiability seems a crucial ingredient of any theory. If you cannot test a prediction repeatedly (and this is where your science lab argument fails), then it could just as well be astrology or religion.
  • by wildsurf ( 535389 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @05:14AM (#15595369) Homepage
    The fault in your analogy is that, while statistics can't tell you what the next run of cards will be, gamblers and mathematicians do use statistics to win over time.

    Well, if we were living in a successive sequence of multiple universes, then knowing the statistics (e.g., knowing the set of 10^500 possible universes that string theory predicts) would come in handy indeed. E.g., if we were to pop our heads in on a thousand random universes in a row, we would soon discover whether string theory is true or not. However, given that we can only observe one universe (our own), Occam's Razor states that the simplest theory that accurately describes it is likely the correct one. The sticking point is that such a simple theory may also describe other possible types of universes. For instance, if dealt 30 playing cards, you could extrapolate a reasonable assumption about the contents of the entire deck (even if you had never seen a deck of playing cards before), and thus form a reasonable theory about the other 10^15 possible hands, but your entire-deck theory may not make any predictions that are falsifiable by the particular 30-card hand you hold. That doesn't make the theory untrue or non-useful.

    The criticism in the article is that string theory, lacking testable predictive power, has no practical payoff like that, so it's not science.

    On the flip side, the problem with every other cosmological theory (starting with Newton's gravitation, then Relativity, then Quantum Mechanics) is that they make predictions that are actively wrong, when extended into each others' domain. The advantage of String Theory is that it bounds the problem from the other direction, the first time this has been achieved. String theory is the first scientific explanation of the universe that COULD be true (so far as we know), in the sense that relativity or quantum mechanics cannot be. Ironically, it is NOT true that string theory makes no falsifiable predictions; it's just that none of its predictions HAVE been falsified, because they are all in accord with what we already observe about our universe. (If gravity were to reverse itself tomorrow and objects start falling upward, this would undoubtedly falsify string theory.)

    To think about it another way, if string theory had been developed (in a comprehensible form) 100 years ago, it would have had great success in terms of its predictive power. (For example, it may predict that "something like quantum mechanics" would soon be observed.) It's just that the current class of "cosmological observations that have not been measured yet, but will be soon" is fairly small, and there's no guarantee that the "true" theory of the universe (or any reasonably general physical theory, for that matter) will actually make falsifiable predictions regarding this limited set of observations. That shouldn't stop us from searching of course, and it does remain to find theories that tighten the bound between relativity/QM (nearly true but demonstrably imperfect theories) and string theory (possibly correct but overly general theories), but string theory's accomplishment of bounding the cosmological problem from the other side shouldn't be underestimated.
  • by Stalyn ( 662 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @05:33AM (#15595397) Homepage Journal
    Yes of course this is /. You don't need to understand the topic at hand in order to have an opinion about it.
  • by Torodung ( 31985 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @05:33AM (#15595400) Journal
    Um sorry, but even amateur scientists know that a scientific LAW is merely a THEORY that has not been successfully falsified for such a long period of time that it is assumed that a single, even several, experiment(s) controverting it is a botched experiment(s).

    But if enough people can prove it wrong, it goes. Even Sir Issac Newton's most basic equations are discarded in the scientific canon, replaced by Einstein's more complete set. Scientific LAW tends to get amended rather than scrapped, and that's what seperates it from theory.

    The SCIENTIFIC METHOD, what science is *supposed* to be based upon, relies upon repeatable results based upon a given set of assumptions: the theory. If you can't test it, what's the point?

    The writer of the article doesn't claim that string theorists are WRONG, he claims that they are WASTING THEIR TIME. Why? Because he feels they are more interested in "elegance" and "beauty" than they are in finding a relevant way to describe the universe that is useful and TESTABLE.

    Whether that is right is a matter of some debate, but get the premise right.

    --
    Torodung
  • If on the other hand you insist that only actual falsification makes something a science, then only theories we no longer believe can count as scientific!

    That's actually a reasonable and sound position. It's more or less impossible to prove something correct in science - we've discovered many times that if a theory looks right on one level, when you go deeper it's just a good approximation. So you can never really be sure whether you've found the right answer, or just something close to it. And from our experience of science the odds are in favour of the 'good approximation' side.

    On the other hand, when you've proven something wrong, you're pretty damned sure that it's wrong. It's then a scientific fact. You can't do that for something that appears right - it's more like a scientific guess.

    It's important to keep this in mind - remember that something you believe to be correct is almost certainly not correct in every particlar. And follow up on those "Hmm, that's odd" moments, because those are how progress is made.
  • by Mark Maughan ( 763986 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @05:42AM (#15595426)
    I am a theoretical physicist. I am educated in Supersymmetry, Riemannian geometry, and the original Kaluza-Klein theory. I am educated in field theory in curved space time, but not Supergravity, nor do I care to be.

    I have only one thing to say about all of this. Everytime I sit in a talk on strings or branes all I can think is one thing.

    Extra dimensions are the epicycles of Modern Physics

    That's all I have to say. If you understand this, it is profound.
  • Re:Call me when (Score:5, Insightful)

    by MoonFog ( 586818 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @05:46AM (#15595429)
    Science isn't about trusting the brains of those who are smart, it's about testing and observations. String theory has yet to produce any significant scientific evidence.
  • by Kap'n Koflach ( 753995 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @06:12AM (#15595472)
    An illustration of the fact that 'because something is infinite' does not imply that 'every possibility will occur':

    There are an infinite number of numbers between 3.0 and 4.0 (3.1, 3.11, 3.111 etc), but none of them is 5.
  • by hagbard5235 ( 152810 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @06:18AM (#15595475)
    American's shun science careers because they are so punishingly expensive. Conside the lifecycle of someone who want's to go into String Theory:

    4 years undergrad ($40-$120k in cost)
    5-7 years grad school (making $15k per year)
    2-6 years postdoc (making $40k per year)
    7 years pre-tenure (making $60-80k per year)
    tenure (making $80-$100k per year)

    Oh, and if you fail at any point along the line, you have no career. Since you are looking at 18-24 years to get to tenure, that's a HUGE
    investmet to make. You are basically looking at not knowing whether you have a career or not until you are 36-42 years old.

    Compare this with the career track of an equally bright student going into CS, and getting a job in tech.

    4 years undergrad ($40k-$120k in cost)
    starting job ($60k-80k)
    5 years experience ($80k-$120k)
    move into management ($100k-$150k)

    etc... notice how the CS grad going into IT hits the $60-$80k range 7-13 *years* before the scientist?

    Plus, while there is less risk of being laid off as a tenured professor, the risk of having your career evaporate as an IT person (please note, IT person who could have hacked being an academic scientist) is MUCH lower. Sure, you may loose your job, but there are plenty of other jobs.

    Few American's go into science because the economics of science is so bad. I don't know how to fix that, but the cause is pretty clear.

    Oh... by the way, I am an American who was on the academic track in String Theory and got off the merry-go-round. Everytime I talk to my friends who stuck it out I am overjoyed I left. My friends are at the mid-potsdoc stage right now. They are trying to scrape by living on $40k a year in ultra expensive locals like Boston, and live in terror that the only jobs they will be available will be in middle of no-where universities in unpleasant places. By way of contrast there are tech jobs to be had in a variety of nice locals to meet most peoples tastes. It's particularly hard on the women, who are starting to hear their biological clocks tick VERY loudly, and who are still years away from being settled in enough to take a break to have children. It's also very hard for both genders to find a long term mate, as they face the aforementioned prospect of having to move a lot to unpleasant places (like Norma, OK, middle of nowhere PA, middle of nowhere plains states, etc) if they want to continue their careers. And let's not even start talking about the two body problem (two romantically entwined academics).

    So basically, if you want more Americans to go into science, make it suck less.
  • Re:Wait, what? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Tatarize ( 682683 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @09:14AM (#15595856) Homepage
    >>And with those restricitions on "God did it!", scientific research became feasible. Without it... sorry. Can't do it.

    So long as you view God as unable to do anything science works out fine. You simply find your result and credit God with the discovery. "Why did that happen?" is the same questions as "Why did God make that happen?" -- with the noted a priori assumption that "God did it" tossed in for sport.
  • by chenzhen ( 532755 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @11:53AM (#15596427) Homepage
    It is science because it does make predictions. It predicts gravity, gauge theory, supersymmetry, and extra dimensions, most of which sound exotic but are actually easier to test than the general expected predictions such as string scattering amplitudes. Extra dimensions, if they are large enough, may be testible in the next few years. So is supersymmetry.

    It really is saying something that the best thing we've got has survived 30 years of scrutiny. I think it does say it's better than nothing, and when you've got something good, simply abandoning it to try and find something else that better fits your equipment isn't a good idea. Not to mention that it is very difficult to simply generate a new theory of quantum gravity. There are a few other contenders, but they suffer from much bigger flaws than string theory.

    Also, a lot of people (many thousands, roughly) do understand string theory. It's just that they all coincidentally have Ph.D.s in the subject.
  • Re:statistics (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Goldsmith ( 561202 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @12:52PM (#15596644)
    You may have discovered that neutrinos have mass only recently, but I was taught that in my undergraduate particle physics class long ago. It seemed to me to be more of a confirmation of theorists ideas following on the work on solar neutrinos. I would argue that the solar neutrino measurement was the first definitive non-standard model measurement. Even that the standard model is not right comes as no surprise to anyone who has been going to physics talks for the last few years. I don't know that I've met a cosmologist who hasn't gleefully pointed out that his work showed the standard model has problems. Which brings us right back to string theory, of which I gathered the whole idea was to replace the standard model. In all, I would say that Minos was a great experiment, but was not nearly a surprise.

    I think this shows things are working the way they should. At least the theorists in your field are trying to find an answer to the experiments showing the existing theories are incorrect. A big surprise would show that someone's not doing their job.
  • by Mark Maughan ( 763986 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @03:41PM (#15597370)
    The analogy is thus.

    Q "Look, the orbits aren't exactly circular"
    A "Try adding more circles"

    Q "..."
    A "Try adding more dimensions"

    I don't mean to say that the true answer is simpler in a sense. I honestly have no idea.

    I came to this conclusion after sitting through dozens of talks and realizing that so many physicists were using extra dimensions like a tool in their toolbox (like renormalization or something), but that tool has never actually fixed anything yet. It's their hammer and everything looks like a nail. Only no nails are proven to exist.
  • by hagbard5235 ( 152810 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @04:24PM (#15597539)
    Happiness is a choice.

    Yes, you can live more simply, and be perfectlly happy with much less in the way of material wealth. I agree. There are trade-offs. I actually left physics for reasons that had nothing to do with the arguments above: it wasn't fun for me anymore. If you enjoy it so much more than the alternatives, then perhaps an academic career will be worthwhile to you, in spite of the sacrifices compared to other career paths you could have chosen.

    The problem is that these days the sacrifices to go into science compared to your other options are getting very steep. At the same time many of the things that made science a nice job are available elsewhere. Flextime for example. One of the nice things about being an academic scientist was that to a large extent you had great flexibility in when you worked. That's now true in the private sector as well. Another was that science presented some very interesting problems, and certain kinds of people really *enjoy* working on such problems. But there are now interesting problems to work on in the private sector as well.

    Basically, the relative benefits of being a scientist are shrinking, and the relative costs are increasing.
  • by Vellmont ( 569020 ) on Saturday June 24, 2006 @05:51PM (#15597855) Homepage

    It really is saying something that the best thing we've got has survived 30 years of scrutiny.

    Well, it's pretty easy to survive 30 years of scrutiny when ST hasn't come up with one single testable prediction not accounted for by other theories. If you don't make any testable predictions it's pretty hard to knock it off the chopping block. From what I've read, ST isn't even a full theory, but merely a framework for other theories. When you've got 10^500 possible theories it makes it a bit harder to knock them all down.

    when you've got something good, simply abandoning it to try and find something else that better fits your equipment isn't a good idea.

    Why not? The energies ST is testable at are far far far above anything we can even conceive of, much less build. ST seems to be based on the great white hope that someone will come up with testable predictions.
  • Re:Man... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Eric Smith ( 4379 ) * on Sunday June 25, 2006 @03:20PM (#15601549) Homepage Journal
    I stand by my original statement, that it is a "crude approximation". A theory that is just plain wrong about a fair amount of what goes on in the universe, and inexact about the rest, is by any reasonable definition a "crude approximation", no matter how elegant and powerful it is.

    There are plenty of theories that are elegant, powerful, and wrong.

  • Re:Man... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by zen-theorist ( 930637 ) on Monday June 26, 2006 @02:26AM (#15603766)
    So if the Sun disappeared right now, the earth would continue to orbit it for around 8 minutes.
    that is not true. the event of the sun self-annihilating cannot be viewed by / communicatde to an earth-observer until 8 minutes. disappeared is entirely the wrong word to use here, it refers to the observation made by the earth-observer, and that is confusing and wrong.

I tell them to turn to the study of mathematics, for it is only there that they might escape the lusts of the flesh. -- Thomas Mann, "The Magic Mountain"

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