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Proposal to Implant RFID Chips in Immigrants 559

Posted by Zonk
from the goes-over-like-a-ton-of-bricks dept.
John3 writes "Some people are OK with voluntarily implanting themselves with RFID chips, but how about making RFID implantation mandatory for immigrant and guest workers? VeriChip Corporation chairman Scott Silverman has proposed implanting RFID chips to register workers as they cross the border. According to Silverman, 'We have talked to many people in Washington about using it...' Privacy advocates see this move by VeriChip as a way to introduce their product to Latin America after a lukewarm reception in North America. Would immigrant workers trade their privacy for the opportunity to work in the U.S.? If this type of tracking is enacted, how long before the government decides to start tracking others for various purposes (for example, pedophiles who are released from prison)?"
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Proposal to Implant RFID Chips in Immigrants

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  • A Cautionary Tale (Score:5, Insightful)

    by TripMaster Monkey (862126) * on Friday June 02, 2006 @01:37PM (#15455702)


    First they chipped the products,
        and I didn't speak up,
            because I was not a product.
    Then they chipped the livestock,
        and I didn't speak up,
            because I was not livestock.
    Then they chipped the house pets,
        and I didn't speak up,
            because I was not a house pet.
    Then they chipped the immigrants,
        and I didn't speak up,
            because I was not an immigrant.
    Then they chipped the felons,
        and I didn't speak up,
            because I was not a felon.

    Then they chipped me,
        and by that time there was no one
            left to speak up for me.
    (Apologies to Reverend Martin Niemoller)
  • wait a second.... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by MustardMan (52102) on Friday June 02, 2006 @01:38PM (#15455706)
    Before you go all "1984" on our asses, take a moment to stop and realize that this is the company that SELLS THE CHIPS making the proposal, NOT the government. What next, a company that makes bombs approving of a war? Or, shock and horror, a cigarette company talking about how harmless their product is? News flash: Guy who sells product proposes people use product. Film at 11.
  • by Art Popp (29075) * on Friday June 02, 2006 @01:38PM (#15455710)
    If it's not O.K. to do something to the people of one's country, it's inappropriate to do it to foreigners.

    Can this be more obvious?
  • What the FUCK? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mg2 (823681) on Friday June 02, 2006 @01:39PM (#15455721)
    Privacy advocates see this move by VeriChip as a way to introduce their product to Latin America after a lukewarm reception in North America.

    Um, um, what? Just a marketing ploy? Just looking to get more market share?

    In other news, The Burger King Corporation has finished constructing it's first run of biomechanical overlord drones. These drones have been shown to be capable of both mind control and world domination. Market Analysts see this as a ploy to increase the Whopper's market share, as the Big Mac has rapidly been gaining popularity.
  • by pavon (30274) on Friday June 02, 2006 @01:40PM (#15455728)
    Isn't the problem with immigration that we have today due to those who enter our country illegally? How does this solve that problem? Only those legally immigrating would be tagged. It may even make the problem worse by motivating more people to risk entering the country illegally rather than be tagged if they enter legally.

    Obscene violation of human rights: Check
    Increased power given to government: Check
    Does not help solve any real problem: Check

    Sounds like another winner from the people that brought you the Real ID Card and Airline Profiling.
  • Slippery Slope (Score:5, Insightful)

    by spun (1352) <loverevolutionar ... m ['hoo' in gap]> on Friday June 02, 2006 @01:40PM (#15455733) Journal
    This is NOT a road we want to start down. This is just an excuse to start getting people okay with this (plus an election year anti-immigant pander-fest.) Next it will be, "Chip your kids to keep 'em safe," then "chip yourself and never have to carry credit cards!" then "chip yourself or we lock you up."

    All right, I'm taking off my tinfoil hat now, but this is still a bad idea.
  • Re:Yay! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Digital Autumn (664952) on Friday June 02, 2006 @01:40PM (#15455737)
    I bet Mr. Verichip is kicking himself that his company didn't exist back in the grand old days of slavery. He would have made a killing.
  • by MustardMan (52102) on Friday June 02, 2006 @01:40PM (#15455739)
    Oh come the fuck on - no one is forcing you to get a microchip placed in your dog. I have my cats and my dogs chipped - it's the only surefire way to ensure that your pet can be connected to you. It's not like the big bad government is coming to my house with a gun to my head saying "PUT A CHIP IN YOUR DOG'S NECK NOW!"

    And the other two? Oh wait, haven't actually happened. Typical slashdot kneejerk paranoia.
  • by xtracto (837672) on Friday June 02, 2006 @01:45PM (#15455804) Journal
    As a Mexican person who prays for never needing to go to the USA (I just went once to Disney World and Universal Studios), I say, fuck the USA government.

    On the other hand, I think that the idea is hilarious, this reminded me of MI-3, they surely will have to implant those chips with those mini bombs. Because if they dont do it, I am completely sure immigrants (at least mexicans) will just "un-implant" the chips and put it in a secure place like their home or things like that. Do not underestimate the power of "Tepitenses" market where you surely will be able to "buy your personalized chip" .

    I applaud the decission that the USA government recently took about immigrants, but what they must understand is that "A la fuerza, ni los zapatos entran. " (by force not even the shoes fit). They provide immigrants with regulations that makes them feel safe, so , why not, create some kind of "RFID National Health Immigrant Card", which they have to show to get Health services or things like that. In that way they will feel that the ID is going to give them a new service, and the government can use it to contrl them.

    Oh, and please if you are from the USA do not get offended, it is nothing personal against citizens, its about the government :).
  • Slippery slope? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by sharky611aol.com (682311) on Friday June 02, 2006 @01:47PM (#15455821)
    The summary actually raises a good question as to whether this sort of "tagging" should be allowed at all.

    Sure, let's go ahead and tag immigrants. And pedophiles. And murderers. And rapists. Any got a problem with that? (I'm going to ignore the fact that pedphiles were the next logical step after immigrants for the time being...)

    Ok, how about hackers? Jaywalkers? IP pirates? Yes, I know the whole "Slippery slope" argument is technically a fallacy, but when you're dealing with the government, it tends to be the norm. When has the gov't ever been happy with a limit on their power once a particular "right" is stripped away?

    I think we all need to agree that nobody needs to be "tagged" for any reason. We have a right to have our identity hidden unless we have performed actions which forfeit this right. You have the right to refuse to show identification to a law enforcement officer if they do not have probable cause. (Before I get lots of cries of foul, Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial Dist. Court of Nev. still requires "suspicious activity") All that goes out the window though if all an officer has to do is wave a wand at you.

  • by realmolo (574068) on Friday June 02, 2006 @01:47PM (#15455825)
    Well, you're right. HOWEVER, as we all know, money talks in Washington. If this company bribes the right politicians, and promises some kind of benefit to a given congressman's state, then it WILL happen.

  • by plehmuffin (846742) on Friday June 02, 2006 @01:47PM (#15455831)
    Is good for the gander.

    I propose that we enact legislation to track all politicians who hold governmental offices. That way we can make sure that they aren't up to no good.

    Slimy Politician: This new energy policy was not influenced by the oil industry.

    Citizen/Reporter: Then why does your location log indicate you visited the major oil companies' headquarters while preparing the legislation?

    Slimy Politician: Umm...

  • by TripMaster Monkey (862126) * on Friday June 02, 2006 @01:48PM (#15455841)

    I fear that that's exactly the point they will be making. "Hey, we've been chipping immigrants for a while, and the program has yielded great benefits! The technology is proven, there's no reason we shouldn't have every U.S. citizen chipped!"

    All entirely voluntary, of course...with the tacit understanding that anyone who refuses obviously has something to hide, and immediately becomes a 'terror suspect'...

    ...but this couldn't happen in the 'land of the free', right?

  • by w33t (978574) on Friday June 02, 2006 @01:50PM (#15455863) Homepage
    RFID implants can be used for good. To fight fire sometimes one must use fire. I think what we need is a "little brother" scenario.

    What we should do is chip our politicians. I think constituents shoud be able to see where they are and what they are doing during their "hours of operation".
    --
    Music should be free [myspace.com]
  • that is just gross (Score:2, Insightful)

    by kendoka (473386) on Friday June 02, 2006 @01:50PM (#15455866)
    my wife is an immigrant, half of my family are immigrants; they're people just like you and me. Tagging them like an animal is inhuman, regardless of the practical outcome there are things we simply do not do in a civilized society; we don't kill our elderly after they're no longer useful, we don't put children our children to work, instead we put them into free schools.

    Any one with half a brain and half a reason would just have the thing removed anyway. All this will do is treat regular people with indignity; the criminals will work around it.
  • by TripMaster Monkey (862126) * on Friday June 02, 2006 @01:51PM (#15455884)

    You don't have to get chipped, but no loyal, patriotic citizen would conceiveably refuse...ergo, if you refuse, you automatically make the 'short list' of terror suspects.

    The 'short list' is only called that by comparison...everybody is on the 'long list'.
  • by lbrandy (923907) on Friday June 02, 2006 @01:51PM (#15455887)
    Oh, and please if you are from the USA do not get offended, it is nothing personal against citizens, its about the government :).

    None taken. No matter how much you think our government sucks, we think yours is worse. And we're right.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 02, 2006 @01:53PM (#15455905)
    Oh, and please if you are from the USA do not get offended, it is nothing personal against citizens, its about the government :).

    There are plenty of americans who worship their government. It is a kind of tribalism, like that which plagues the middle-east. Whether you intend to or not, you are insulting those people.

    But, those people are a lot of what's wrong with the USA so go ahead and insult them.
  • by grammar fascist (239789) on Friday June 02, 2006 @01:59PM (#15455980) Homepage
    For heck's sake, moderators, this is not a troll. Did you notice how he actually pointed out logical flaws in the grandparent's soppy poem? Here they are in a bulleted list, in case you were blinded by rage when you read the parent's "Troll":

    • No one is forcing you to get a microchip placed in your dog
    • Nobody has actually placed microchips in immigrants - VeriChip Corporation chairman Scott Silverman proposed it
    • Nobody has even proposed placing microchips in felons

    But you know, if you're swayed by emotional words and slippery slopes that totally piggyback off real, great literature, I suppose you won't care.

    Sheesh.
  • by Software (179033) on Friday June 02, 2006 @02:04PM (#15456026) Homepage Journal
    From the article you linked [newstandardnews.net]:
    Over the next year, people in these categories will be issued new "I-94" visa cards embedded with an RFID tag ... Homeland Security Department requires that the I-94 cards be carried at all times.
    whereas the article in the /. story discusses the CEO of the chip company who wants to implant chips in people.

    Implanting chips in people != implanting chips in visas, even if you have to carry the visa (tinfoil, anyone?)

  • by lbrandy (923907) on Friday June 02, 2006 @02:05PM (#15456047)
    Americans. Stand up. It is your freedom on the line next.

    It is a never-ending amazement how shallow the line of reasoning of some people is. Some company is trying to sell RFID chips, proposes a possible use, and now it's time to take up arms against our cowboy president. The real danger to America is people who can't think 5 seconds beyond their blind political agenda.
  • by nick_davison (217681) on Friday June 02, 2006 @02:05PM (#15456048)
    Would immigrant workers trade their privacy for the opportunity to work in the U.S.?

    No. I, for one, would be leaving.

    Granted, I am here as a spouse of an American citizen and working simply because of that, not because I simply came for work.

    We're in California because she was badly injured in a car accident and her injuries hurt her less in that climate (I know, another one of those selfish immigrants selfishly supporting your disabled citizens so they don't need to claim benefits - it shouldn't be allowed!). But, should any government expect to implant chips in my body, tattoo a series of numbers on my wrist or demand I wear a Star Of David, in the name of "administrative tracking", I'm sure as hell not staying. We gave that a shot in Europe back in the 30s and 40s - it wasn't too popular. Much as I'd hate putting my wife through the physical pain associated with what the British climate does to her injuries, America can do without a highly skilled and heavily in demand science worker. And then everyone who remains can post on Slashdot lamenting how, once all of those workers leave, America's strangely falling even further behind in the sciences.

    I'm sorry but it's just not worth starting down that slippery slope to keep a job. I can earn just as well back in Europe and not go down that slope. Forgetting about my wife's specific case, the only people who'll really lose out are the American citizens whose country continues to fall further behind (don't worry, I'm sure your president will authorize borrowing even more to make up for it). So, granted I don't speak for all immigrants (given I have blonde hair, blue eyes, white skin, and the ability to legally work anywhere in Europe which means most Americans don't think of me when justifying their racism in the name of immigration control) but I am at least one immigrant who'd happily sacrifice living in the states for avoiding a path with disturbing similarities to something the Nazi's (with the help of another U.S. business, IBM, tried back in the 40's).

    And, yes, this was just one long post to repeatedly hammer home on Slashdot that I have a wife. Some guys'll do anything to show off. ;)
  • by TripMaster Monkey (862126) * on Friday June 02, 2006 @02:09PM (#15456089)

    Two problems:
    • First of all, why are you comparing an unobtrusive RFID chip with a 'tattoo on your forehead'? That's a specious comparison.

    • Second, what makes you think the government is going to care about how big the 'leap' from an RFID-equipped passport to the same information on an RFID chip seems to you? For one thing, this is currently being discussed for immigrants, not citizens. Second, it's voluntary. You don't want to get chipped, you don't have to...and you don't have to work in our country, either. When it comes for citizens, it will be equally voluntary, but getting along without an RFID chip will become increasingly difficult, just as it's nearly impossible to function in society today without valid ID.

    Yes, it is a 'slight leap', if you take the long view. But things like this are seldom done all at once...they are usually introduced by degrees. Give the populace long enough to get used to an idea, and you can sell them almost anything.
  • by aldheorte (162967) on Friday June 02, 2006 @02:13PM (#15456131)
    Ethics and morality aside, which are being much discussed in other topics, what problem does embedded RFIDs really solve here? RFIDs are extremely low distance information responders. They would not let anyone track down someone to their location. This means that RFIDs embedded in migrant workers serves no purpose besides embedding 'papers' on them, which they could remove just as they could lose papers, though it is probably in their best interest if legitimate to keep their papers on them.

    Therefore, all this does is attempt to solve an already solved simple problem (identification papers) in an overly complex and expensive way.

    Also, people do not seem to understand the difference between GPS, active transponders, and RFID. Embarrassingly, even IBM doesn't have a clue even though it wants to sell RFID solutions. I cite a commercial where a truck is notified it is off course in the middle of a desert as an advertisement for RFID solutions.
  • by smellsofbikes (890263) on Friday June 02, 2006 @02:16PM (#15456153) Journal
    I entirely agree with you. But there are lots of people who don't. A friend of mine posted something about Guantanamo on her blog and had tens of people saying, in effect, that they had no problem whatsoever with innocent people being imprisoned, tortured, and killed, if there was even a chance that some of those people might be terrorists.

    That breaks my brain. Once you make that leap, then *everyone* is your enemy and you grab a gun and just start shooting until there's nobody left, to keep yourself safe.

    Which, basically, is what the USA is doing in the world at large. There are lots of people who don't see a problem with this, maybe even a majority of Americans.
  • by DigitAl56K (805623) on Friday June 02, 2006 @02:19PM (#15456188)
    .. and working here in the US in the technology sector. I consider myself quite valuable to my company and love working here, but would not hesitate to leave if the US government started mandating implants for immigrant and/or guest workers. What the hell is going on? I come to this country legally, I contribute to the economy, I pay my taxes, and now some company is lobbying the goverment to stick a chip in my arm? Fuck you, VeriChip. For the record, as a guest worker who was originally enthralled with the prospect of working here I am now dismayed with the Government of this country. The DMCA, the Patriot act, the 'WMD' war in Iraq, the NSA spying, the 'State secrets' defense, the complete lawlessness of the Bush administration despite the attrocious approval ratings, and the lack of retaliation from the people of this country to defend the basic rights in their constitution is, in my view, steadily degrading everything that I once viewed to be so great about the US. Chipping guest workers will be several steps too far for me. The way things are going in a couple of years I may have to consider moving to China...
  • by ansak (80421) on Friday June 02, 2006 @02:21PM (#15456213) Homepage Journal
    Other than your comment about taking off your tinfoil hat, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

    Someone apologized on this page for mis-quoting Niemöller but the principle is the same. Chipping people in exchange for the right to work is to succumb to a significant component of was obviously wrong with society in the movie, Gattaca [imdb.com].

    Someone, please, shut VeriChip up before the really repressive countries in the world get hold of their technology and decide that it's just one more tool to manage what would otherwise be unruly populations. The good news is that with responsible government, mandatory chipping is still pretty unlikely. But as government gets less responsive...

    The discourse is going exactly the way you stated it but it also includes,
    "Chip yourself so if you forget what your meds are someone else can figure it out for you."
    "What was a 'chip' again?"
    "Just do it, it's for the best."
    "Oh. Okay."

    cheers...ank

  • by MustardMan (52102) on Friday June 02, 2006 @02:25PM (#15456258)
    The government buys guns. Therefore, this supports my assertion that the U.S. goverment is pursuing firearm technology for exactly the reasons of killing people. Killing people will be more convenient, less expensive, and faster than trials. Therefore it's only logical that the military will begin immediately shooting anyone who questions the government. Given that it's much easier to just shoot detractors than hold an electio, can you come up with a plausible reason why they wouldn't pursue martial law?

    The scary thing is, I can honestly see you believing an argument like the ridiculous fake one I just gave.
  • by Infonaut (96956) <infonaut@gmail.com> on Friday June 02, 2006 @02:25PM (#15456262) Homepage Journal

    If this company bribes the right politicians, and promises some kind of benefit to a given congressman's state, then it WILL happen.

    Provided the congresscritter believes the public won't get too freaked out by the results. The folks in Congress are still elected. Also, there are plenty of other private interests that are likely opposed to RFID tagging of immigrants. After all, business lobbies are already putting up a fight [washingtonpost.com] against more restrictive immigration controls.

    For every private interest or public interest group in favor of particular legislation, there are almost always some on the other side fighting vigorously for their interests. While immigrants don't have a strong lobby, big business makes a buttload of money [businessweek.com] off them, and don't want to see that revenue stream disappear.

  • by Beyond_GoodandEvil (769135) on Friday June 02, 2006 @02:42PM (#15456424) Homepage
    Actually, you missed the real problem w/ the grand parent post. Namely products, livestock, and pets aren't people(PETA be damned). You see I can buy and sell products, livestock, or pets w/out violating the 13th amendment to the constitution. However, this suggestion for immigrants just needs the right catalyst to take off. Of course it won't work or solve any real problems, but it will make some company in some congressional district very rich running and data mining the lists of chipped individuals. So perhaps a little caution is required. Btw does quoting the poem, (and thereby invoking the Holocaust)set a new Godwin record?
  • Re:Yay! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by masklinn (823351) <slashdot.org@mas k l inn.net> on Friday June 02, 2006 @02:45PM (#15456453)
    Ah, and note that there is no mention in the article of the word "illegal", in fact the only example of workers that'd be chipped are perfectly legal workers.
  • by why-is-it (318134) on Friday June 02, 2006 @02:50PM (#15456506) Homepage Journal
    it's not like they're citizens, so they don't enjoy Constitutional protections. Legally, our government should be able to do whatever they want to them

    The rights described by the constitution apply to everyone - not just citizens. That is why the prison was built in Cuba on land that is leased from the Cuban government. The constitution does not apply there.

    Is it legal to do this? That remains to be seen. Is it ethical? Bush, Rumsfeld, Wolfitz, and Rice are always claiming the US is only interested in peace, democracy, and the rule of law, The mere existance of gulags like Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, and the secret prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan tend to severely undermine the sincerity (and truth) of those claims.

  • by eldepeche (854916) on Friday June 02, 2006 @02:56PM (#15456568)
    That must be why millions of US citizens have fled to Mexico.
  • Re:Yay! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by pizzaman100 (588500) on Friday June 02, 2006 @02:56PM (#15456569) Journal
    Hey numbnuts ... this chip idea is for the illegals crossing the Mexican border. Not for the legal immigrants.

    So how do you chip illegals? Do you do it when they sneak in?

  • Re:Yay! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Aspirator (862748) on Friday June 02, 2006 @03:01PM (#15456630)
    I'm also a legal immigrant from the UK (and an employer). I felt that I was treated
    like a criminal at the US port of entry (including fingerprinting). I doubt that
    I would have come if I had to be chipped to do it.

    Back then I had a perception of the US as a 'land of the free'. It is becoming less so,
    OTOH so is the UK.

    Counteless patriots have died to defend the freedoms we now so happily fritter away.

    Now chipping ex cons (provided that it is the law at the time they commit their crime,
    and that it is part of the sentence) seem altogether more reasonable to me.
  • by Moofie (22272) <leeNO@SPAMringofsaturn.com> on Friday June 02, 2006 @03:05PM (#15456679) Homepage
    OK, let me just check one teeny thing...

    "because it's so obviously an invasion of privacy"

    You're talking about the court that just denied whistleblower status to people who work for the government? That Alito court?

    I have no confidence whatsoever that any of those "justices" who ruled in the majority on that case have even SEEN the Constitution.
  • by TripMaster Monkey (862126) * on Friday June 02, 2006 @03:05PM (#15456685)

    Your argument is nothing more than straw man flamebait, but it's late Friday afternoon, and I'm bored, so sure...I'll play:

    Given that it's much easier to just shoot detractors than hold an electio

    There's the flaw in your argument. It's much easier to hold a rigged election then it is to shoot detractors.

    Disinformation is far easier and works far more effectively than brute force in oppressing populations. If you don't agree with this, just watch Fox and Friends for a little while.
  • by GWTPict (749514) on Friday June 02, 2006 @03:06PM (#15456690)
    WHOOSH!! Congratulations, that was the sound of the whole point of the grandparents soppy poem disappearing into the distance without you noticing it. He wasn't saying you are required to microchip your dog, he wasn't saying that anyone has microchipped immigrants or proposed doing it to felons. You know, I'm confused, was your mention of great literature intended to demonstrate you're familiar with the original verse? Because if so how could you so totally fail to understand the point of it?

    Yes it is a slippery slope, if you're going to fuck people over do it incrementally, they'll accept it much easier that way. If immigrants etc were chipped how long do you think it would be before someone suggested various other segments of the population could usefully be chipped? Mmm? you might trust the government you have now but what about the one 5, 10 or 15 years down the line?

    I've spent the last 18 years of my life writing systems that need to identify people, to say whether they've payed their rent or not, what care are they getting from social services, is their library book overdue or not, the list is endless. From a purely job based perspective, yes, chip the buggers from birth. From a purely personal perspective, come near me with a chipping device and I'll take your arm off and beat you to death with the soggy end.

    Technology is neither good or evil, the uses it's put to are another matter, the danger is once it's out of the box you can't put it back in.

  • by flyingsquid (813711) on Friday June 02, 2006 @03:15PM (#15456791)
    Also, they arn't being forced. It's the price of admission to America.

    Frankly I'm disgusted that anyone would seriously consider this. Seriously, would you claim it was just the "price of admission" if you were required to get one before you could vote, or perhaps if you were required to have on implanted into you at birth before your citizenship would be official?

    Implanting chips into people like they were a cow or your dog is just disgusting, it's treating people as less than people simply because they were born in a different country. I just can't see why having a passport that says "U.S." means you should be entitled to basic human dignity, while having one that says "Mexico" means you should be treated like an animal. But that's what supporting this proposal is arguing.

  • And so it begins (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 02, 2006 @03:35PM (#15456998)
    "without which you will be able neither to buy nor sell"
  • Re:Yay! (Score:2, Insightful)

    by everett (154868) <efeldtNO@SPAMefeldt.com> on Friday June 02, 2006 @03:39PM (#15457047) Homepage
    Actually, I was thinking the same thing as I read the summary. The best I could think of was some sort of "bouncing betty" type proximity mines placed along the border that would "tag" immigrants that crossed the border outside of designated border crossings.

    But then it dawned on me, replace the RFID chips in those mines with ball bearings, and the effectiveness would probably go up a bit, as far as completing the mission of the border guard, which is of course keeping unauthorized people out while allowing authorized people in.

    I'd imagine a moat of flaming death could work too. On a serious note though, if America can spend billions on a foreign war against a nation that didn't even attack us, why can't they afford to build a 6ft thick, 20ft tall concrete wall along the length of the U.S.A.-Mexico border IF they feel it's such a necessity to keep these people from coming in to the country? I've never met an immigrant that wasn't grateful to be here, otoh I have met hundreds of Americans in my life that weren't and who I don't believe should be allowed to live here, I guess it's a good thing I'm not in charge of who can come in and who gets kicked out.
  • Re:Yay! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by morleron (574428) <morleron&yahoo,com> on Friday June 02, 2006 @03:51PM (#15457171) Journal
    The problem is that this process can't stop with immigrants. If the idea is to make it possible for employers to tell if the person they want to hire is legal or for INS to tell the same thing, then the lack of an ID chip will leave one in a non-verifiable condition. Obviously, the government can't have that, after all that non-chipped person may be a "terrorist". Thus, sooner rather than later, everyone who has a legal right to be in this country will be required to get "chipped" and lack of a chip will be taken as de facto evidence of illegal activity of some sort. This idea needs to be squashed ASAP and not quietly either, lest it be snuck back in to the immigration debate later on. Allowing this step to be taken is merely letting the camel get most of the way into the tent and soon our children will be "chipped" at birth.

    Just my $.02,
    Ron

     
  • by cagle_.25 (715952) on Friday June 02, 2006 @04:03PM (#15457290) Journal
    I think what you're possibly missing here is that RFIDing someone says "I own your body. I can force you to have a piece of my equipment inside of you that allows me to know your whereabouts at any moment -- because you must transmit the right code at all times in order to do business here."

    Such a claim is dehumanizing, regardless of its intent. RFID for people is exactly like yellow cards for Jews. The cards had the effect of intimidating and humiliating.

    RFID for people is *not* like a visa (the "price of entry into a country") in these ways:

    • a visa is only required at points of entry and under unusual circumstances, such as being pulled over by the cops. By contrast, RFID for people make it *possible* to survail people at almost all times, simply by sticking readers in discrete locations, like the merchandise protectors in stores. How did you imagine that VeriChip or whoever was proposing to sort the legals from the illegals?
    • A visa can be surrendered after it has been used. RFID requires surgery to eliminate, or else some kind of electronic wiping. Like most immigrants from Mexico can afford that...
  • by pavon (30274) on Friday June 02, 2006 @05:55PM (#15458268)
    The point is well taken, but I still don't think it will help. Anyone who was willing to overstay their visa, and become illegals is going to be getting forged documents to due so, and taking on a fair bit of risk as well. A small procedure to remove an chip isn't much of an obstacle.

    What it comes down to is this - lack of a tag proves nothing. If you were to tag all US citizens and require the tags for any employment/social services/school/whatever, then lack of a tag would mean something. But if it comes to that, a lot of people are going to start putting the fourth amendment to use.
  • Re:Yay! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by d3ac0n (715594) on Friday June 02, 2006 @06:45PM (#15458618)
    Those illegal workers do work that Americans don't want to do for the wages which are required to support the prices they want to pay.

    Behold! Ignorance at work! Did you ever consider, EVEN ONCE that perhaps the reason that Americans won't take those jobs is because the massive Illegal immigration over the last 30 years has reduced the wage levels for those jobs so low that no American could afford to take them?

    I have a friend who used to live in the southwest (New Mexico) in the 80's. He owned a Housing construction and subcontracting company, and was an honest man. He refused to hire anyone who couldn't pass a full background check. As Illegal immigration began to become more and more of an issue, his competitors, some of whom were less scrupulous than he, started to hire the Illegals to work for them. The Illegals would work so cheap that he was literally priced right out of the market. By the time his business folded, every single one of his employees had either left the state, or left the trade. Illegal Immigration killed his business.

    He had roots in the Northeast, and moved back here and re-started his life. He recently told me that he was starting to see the same kinds of issues with Illegal Immigrants here in the northeast that he saw back in the southwest in the 80's. He's nearing retirement age, and just hopes to survive long enough to be able to retire semi-comfortably.

    Don't want illegal immigrants working on farms? Expect to pay more for your groceries. Don't want legal immigrants? Be prepared to live with a lower standard of living.

    This is what Illegal Immigration does: It doesn't HELP the economy, it HURTS it. Illegal Immigrants take jobs that American WILL DO, and increase the rolls of the working poor. This puts an ever-increasing burden on the already strained social services, and put the American economy in danger of going into a tailspin of plummeting wage rates and skyrocketing inflation.

    Now, this is VERY different from LEGAL Immigration, which brings in high-skilled labor and improves the economy. But, of course, this is too fine a distinction to make for some, who would rather demagouge the issue and simply call those who want the laws to be respected "bigots".

    Stop painting the issue with such a broad and incorrect brush. All most Americans want is for the LAWS TO BE OBEYED. If you can't respect and obey our laws in coming here, then we don't want you. It's that simple.

    As far as the chipping thing, I'd only be comfortable with it being done with parolees and ex-cons. I'm not comfortable with chipping otherwise law-abiding citizens.

    Yeah, I know my opinions on Illegal Immigration won't win me any mod points, but I don't care. It's the truth, wether you mod me down for it or not.
  • by Beatlebum (213957) on Friday June 02, 2006 @06:54PM (#15458682)
    Given that the rate of recidivism for pedophiles is very high, and that the crime is one which destroys the lives of the most vulnerable in society, the only workable alternative to incarceration for convicted pedophiles is some kind of electronic tagging. And yes, that would mean less privacy for convicted pedophiles, I'm OK with that and I don't see it as a slippery slope. When we convict people of securities fraud the law can ban them from trading stocks for life, why not ban pedophiles from schools and enforce it with tags? When a grown man rapes a five year old girl she will suffer the mental and physical scars for the rest of her life. Is it asking too much that he be electronically tagged upon release? Some would argue that he should be executed or put away forever, but it seems you are telling me that when his time is served he should regain all of his civil liberties, including the right to go wherever he pleases. Perhaps you would be ok with him visiting the victim?

  • Re:Yay! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by susano_otter (123650) on Friday June 02, 2006 @07:06PM (#15458763) Homepage
    They'll love it.

    Are you sure?

    I mean, if they loved busting caps in illegals, wouldn't we have seen them in action years ago?

    Their whole behavior profile really seems to imply that they spent most of their lives finding enjoyment in other ways, and only recently became Minutemen because they felt the had to, not because they thought it would be fun.
  • Re:Yay! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by pcgc1xn (922943) on Friday June 02, 2006 @07:33PM (#15458947) Homepage

    I don't think that illegal immigration is a good thing, but I beleive that the US market demands it. I beleive your example proves it.

    Your freind only hired people who could demonstrate that they were legally entitled to work. This is laudable. He was priced out of the market because his competitors hired illegals at a lower rate. This proves that the market did not value whether the work was done by illegals or not. If people cared that there construction was done by legal workers *and were prepared to pay for it* then your freind would not be out of business.

    If Americans really cared that their vegetables were picked and houses built by people who were not legally entitled to work in the US, they would vote with their wallet, and entirely legal suppliers would florish. A sufficient number of American consumers do not care sufficiently to make a difference. Whether this is right or wrong is a matter of personal judgement, and I did not weigh in on it.

    Immigrants have historically been used as a whipping boy and pointed to as the cause of the woes of whatever country you care to point at. I don't beleive they are. If the illegal immigration in the last 30 years is the cause of the problems the working poor have, what were the reasons 50 years ago?

    I stand by my point, the American consumer demands lower prices and will accept illegal immigrants as the cost of this. When I lived in Arizona, it was obvious that illegal immigrants were everywhere, but people did not care enough to shop where the workers were legal. They would complain that there were too many hispanics (and ignore the fact that AZ was once part of Mexico), but not enough to shop elsewhere. I understand that your personal view is different, but I don't think you buy enough to sway the market

  • Re:Out of curosity (Score:5, Insightful)

    by pjay_dml (710053) on Friday June 02, 2006 @07:36PM (#15458972) Journal
    What's really sad, is that what you have said will be viewed as an exageration, only because there is nothing directly comparable to the Concentration Camps, as if that was all that made the Third Reich so "special".

    People view the Third Reich as a lawless, despotic regime, which is far from historic fact. Undeniable, especially during the last days of the war, and hence of the Reich, the law wasn't much respected. Never the less, most that happened during Hitlers time was according to German law of the time.

    Another troll (and a pommy who should know better) mentioned something about "if they tag cons"...what about the visa violation convict? See convict and criminal are words that people like to use to destinguish themselves from the "good ones", but a label does not make factual evidence.

    I use to highly regard the US of A for their stand on privacy, having grown up in Germany, where every one is required to be in possesion of an ID card. Then I learnt more about Social Security Numbers. Then they introduced finger printing of visitors. Then I learnt about the differences in privacy and data retention laws, and now I laugh at US citizens, because they will soon feel the guilt Germans have been carrying around with themselves for the past 60 years. All the time feeling smug about themselves. Immigrants not carrying about the political nature, just interested in being on the winners side. Just like back then, the Tschechs, the Poles, the French...

    We are living on a slippery slope, with an increasing tilt.
  • Re:Yay! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Zemran (3101) on Friday June 02, 2006 @10:16PM (#15459765) Homepage Journal
    Although I think that what you have written is correct, you seem to have missed the point. It is not the illegal immigrants that will be tagged. It will be the highly skilled and hard working 'legal' immigrants that are going to be tagged. OK, there are some people that would still want to go to the USA and make that sacrifice but I for one would not. That said I had already decided against working in the USA when I was asked to work in NY and decided that I prefered SE Asia. I get a lot less money here but I have a smile on my face more of the time and that is what matters to me. I used to teach computer foresics and now I just teach English to local kids. I have helped on high profile court cases and do not want to take that pain again so I settle for a happy life. I am the opposite of the immigrant that you talk about.

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