Microsoft Dismisses Xbox Backwards Compatibility 146
kukyfrope writes "In a recent interview on U.K. site Kikizo Peter Moore, Microsoft's head of the Interactive Entertainment business, claims that Microsoft has 'under promised and over delivered' Xbox game compatibility on the Xbox 360. He states that gamers are now looking more towards next-gen titles, forgetting about the majority of Xbox titles." From the article: "Moore's comments shouldn't be misunderstood. MS will be adding to its backwards compatibility list, but it hardly seems like a priority now that the 360 is hitting its stride and the original Xbox is getting less and less support."
it was a priority until they sold some (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:it was a priority until they sold some (Score:3, Insightful)
How else would you measure it? By listening to rabid Slashdot Nintendo fanboys?
"Still selling" is a great measure of satisfaction, next to hiring Zogby to do a survey.
Re:it was a priority until they sold some (Score:2, Flamebait)
While I'm not extremly familiar with all the Xbox success story games, what new games have Xbox 360 developers announced that were NOT similar to something already on
Re:it was a priority until they sold some (Score:1)
I've got one, and the only reason I bought one is because I had a nice little financial windfall come my way that wasn't really planned. If that money hadn't come in, though, I probably would have waited until the price dropped significantly.
I think that if and when more people buy the
Re:it was a priority until they sold some (Score:2)
Basically the Xbox had 3 genres (FPS/Sports/3rd person adventure) that were ever Xbox exclusive, all three of these genres generally get a brand new iteration every y
Backward compatibility is very important... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Backward compatibility is very important... (Score:4, Insightful)
Most people don't go to the store and randomly buy a game. They have a goal in mind, like, "I want to pick up PGR3." Depending on the game they're looking for, it may not be available on other platforms. If I'm going to the store to buy a copy of PGR3 ($40-50), I'm not going to decide to pick up a copy of Burnout 3 and NFS:U2 ($20 each) instead. Games aren't as elastic as other products. If I go to a restaurant and order a Coke, you can give me a Pepsi or any other non-Coke cola product and I won't much care. If I go to the game store and ask for a copy of Halo, I will very much care if you hand me a copy of Killzone instead.
First, the Xbox 360 is $400, not $600 (that's the PS3 you're thinking about), assuming you're quoting in USD. Second, I think Moore is mostly correct about backwards compatibility. The goal is to provide value for your customers during the first few months of a console's life when there are not a bunch of games out yet (and those that are out are launch titles, which generally means "not all that great"). Sony does this with backwards compatibility. Nintendo has historically done it by keeping their launch prices low and expecting you to keep the previous generation console hooked up. Microsoft did it with the 360 by providing extra functionality like demos on Marketplace, Xbox Live Arcade, and Media Center Extender functionality. Backwards compatibility with Xbox games was tacked on because Sony's made it a mandatory bullet point.
Seriously, how many PS1 games did you buy or play on your PS2 in the last three years? I think I played one (FFIX) and purchased none. And the only reason I played it on my PS2 was because it was already connected. I certainly could've dug out my PSOne and hooked it up.
That depends on the user. I know a lot of people who bought a 360 solely for Geometry Wars (they've since branched out, but that was their killer app). Yes, a $5 game sold them on a $400 console. Personally, PGR3 and Geometry Wars was enough to get me to buy. Oblivion and Fight Night Round 3 were worth purchasing, but I'm really looking forward to Forza 2 at the end of this year. If you're a Halo fanboy, you probably won't buy a 360 until late next year.
halo two (Score:2)
If I go to the game store and ask for a copy of Halo, I will very much care if you hand me a copy of Killzone instead.
But if you ask for a copy of Halo 2, I have every right to reach from the "Used CDs :: Rock :: N" section and grab the other Halo 2 [wikipedia.org].
how many PS1 games did you buy or play on your PS2 in the last three years?
At least Lego Racers, a few Mega Man games, Dance Dance Revolution Konamix, and a couple other games that my PStwo's laser reads more accurately than my PS1's does. Little cousi
the only way (Score:2)
Re:the only way (Score:1)
Let's review (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Let's review (Score:4, Insightful)
Sega MegaDrive/Genesis: Huge Success
NES: Huge Success
Re:Let's review (Score:2)
Atari 5200: not backward compatible failure
Atari 7800: backward compatible failure
Somehow I think other market factors play into whether or not a console is successful aside from backwards compatibility.
Re:Let's review (Score:2)
Re:Let's review (Score:1)
I was also six. I didn't know any better.
Re:Let's review (Score:2)
*shudder*
Re:Let's review (Score:2)
Re:Let's review (Score:2)
The Super Famicom (SNES) was designed around the 65816 processor initially to retain backward compatibility with the Famicom (NES). Although the systems used a different cartridge layout, adapters [gamersgraveyard.com] do exist.
Sega MegaDrive/Genesis: Huge Success
The Mega Drive 1 and 2 used a Z80 to retain backwards compatibility with the Mark III (Master System). Sega manufactured and sold a device called the Power Base Converter [vidgame.net] to retain compatibility. The Mega Drive 3 as well as other systems (Nomad, CDX
Re:Let's review (Score:2)
I can also say that the NES didn't maintain backwards compatibility with any previous system.
Re:Let's review (Score:5, Informative)
They were pretty upfront about not being able to play every game.
From the 360 web site... (Score:4, Informative)
Q: Are you intentionally trying to keep a game off the list because you want us to buy the Xbox 360 version?
A: Not at all. Our goal remains to get every game to be backward compatible. The only things influencing what games we're working on are how popular the title is, and how easy it is to make backward compatible. Several original Xbox games on the list already have Xbox 360 counterparts.
Emphasis mine.
Seems that eventually they want all games to be compatible. True, Microsoft hasn't claimed that every game is compatible right now. From what they've said, they certainly leave you with the impression that games on the compatibility will run fine and anyone with a 360 knows that is simply not the case. Compatibility is improving every month, but regardless of what Microsoft claims there will be many games that never make the list. It's just not worth the effort.
Re:From the 360 web site... (Score:2)
So I'd agree that they want
Re:Let's review (Score:2)
Actually it didn't. It said it won't play XBox games at all, and very close to release it announced it'll play some, with more to come... and this is what happened.
Re:Let's review (Score:2)
Re:Let's review (Score:2)
Re:Let's review (Score:3, Funny)
"In other news, shooting yourself in the foot still hurts". I think this quote is appropriate.
Re:Let's review (Score:2)
actually no it doesn't, the original ps2 was incompatible with some PS games and the newest JP PS2 model (the silver slim model) is incompatible with some ps2 games.
Re:Let's review (Score:1)
PlayStation 2 - Played every PlayStation game, huge success
Don't think so. I don't own very many PS1 games, but of those Driver barely loads on the PS2 and crashes very quickly, and (the excellent and hugely under-rated) Terracon [gameplanet.co.nz] doesn't work at all. I don't think that PS2 backwards compatibility was all it was cracked up to be and I found that very annoying when I bought a PS2.
Re:Let's review (Score:2)
If you're going to do an analysis like this, at least be fair and include the consoles which had backwards-compatibility and completely bombed.
Re:Let's review (Score:2)
But you also forgot to mention that there are some Game Boy Advance compatibility issues too. Not many, mind you, but there are some games that don't work correctly. A good example is the GBC version of Mortal Kombat 4; if I recall correctly, the audio and voice samples turn into a nice high pitched screech in the GBA.
That said, bac
I hope they continue (Score:1)
You youngins and your backwards compatibility (Score:1)
Re:You youngins and your backwards compatibility (Score:1)
Re:You youngins and your backwards compatibility (Score:1)
Backwards Compatibility Can Be A Problem... (Score:2)
Where as, if there is no backwards compatibility, you are more likely to make games for the new platform than the old.
So I would say that backwards compatibility can be a problem. If you are spending a lot of money on a new box, you want
Re:Backwards Compatibility Can Be A Problem... (Score:2)
Re:Backwards Compatibility Can Be A Problem... (Score:1)
Developing for the older system comes off as more cheap/bargain bin style. Even if it was the best thing just a few months previous.
Re:Backwards Compatibility Can Be A Problem... (Score:2)
Or not at all?
Given the cost of Sony's PS3 developer package, this isn't as insignificant a problem as you might think.
Good move on their part (Score:5, Informative)
Certainly, it could be more compatible, but you do have to give them credit for what they have done. Sony was able to do this better as they did not change the underlying architecture (PS1 - MIPS R3000, PS2 - MIPS R5900), whereas Microsoft has (XBox - x86 P3, X360 - PPC Cell).
I can say from experience that writing programs for PPC is a whole new ball game when you're used to x86, and I can only imagine emulating x86 code on PPC being somewhere along the lines of a total nightmare.
Certainly, I do have some disappointment that it isn't 100% backwards compatible, but at least they didn't pull a Nintendo by offering absolutely no backwards compatibility.
Re:Good move on their part (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Good move on their part (Score:2)
Re:Good move on their part (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Good move on their part (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Good move on their part (Score:2)
Nintendo had the SNES, N64 and Gamecube which all went without backward compatibility.
True about the Nintendo 64, but the Super NES could play 99 percent of Game Boy games through the Super Game Boy accessory. (The exceptions were a few games that required the link port, as the upgraded "Super Game Boy 2" that had a link port was never released in North America.) The GameCube could play 98 percent of Game Boy, Game Boy Color, and Game Boy Advance games through the Game Boy Player accessory. (The major e
Re:Good move on their part (Score:2)
b) All of that GB/GBA compatibility is accomplished with accessories. We're talking about either integrated, or at least free (by hooking up to Xbox Live "Silver"), backward compatibility.
I would note, by the way, that I have the Gameboy Player attached to my GC and I think it'
Re:Good move on their part (Score:1)
Not once in there do you mention anything resembling BC to a home console
Yes I did, albeit involving two accessories: GameCube + Game Boy Player + GBA Movie Player + CF card with PocketNES emulator = NES games on GameCube.
Re:Good move on their part (Score:1)
Emulators on GBA vs. on Xbox (Score:1)
Unless the process you describe allows you to plug NES carts into the Gamecube
You plug the NES Game Pak -> CopyNES -> PC -> (optional) text translation, cheats, or other mods -> CF reader -> CF card -> GBA Movie Player.
By that standard, the Xbox is backward compatible to the Atari 2600 (and almost every other popular console).
The difference is that with the Game Boy Player + GBA Movie Player:
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Good move on their part (Score:2)
Re:Good move on their part (Score:2)
Re:Good move on their part (Score:2, Informative)
Now that the PS2 has been shrunk to basically a single chip maybe Sony will use the same approach in the PS3 and include a complete PS2 (which in turn contains a PS1)?
Re:Good move on their part (Score:2)
This is similar to the Sega Genesis's emulation of Master System games, which could be done because the Genesis's sound processor was the same as the SMS's main processor.
Re:Good move on their part (Score:2)
Someone will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the 360's CPU, while PPC-derived, is not part of the Cell line.
Your comment also leads me to think about the prognosis for Sony's backwards-compatibility. The PS3 architecture is vastly different from the PS1 and PS2 -- how well can we expect Playstation titles compile
Re:Good move on their part (Score:2)
Never mind the little bit of trivia that a few years ago, MS bought out a company that was emulating x86 on a PowerMac, and doing it decently enough that it should be able to emulate a 600 MHz celeron on a 3.2GHz PPC.
(Actually, a more important problem is that they changed GPUs, so shader programs and
Re:Good move on their part (Score:2)
Another poster already mentioned that the PS2's architecture is vastly different from the PSX, and backwards compatibility was maintained by adding the PSX CPU to the system, giving it the task of I/O. Not to mention that the PS3 (apparently) is fully compatible with the PS2 despite even more radical changes. Presumably this is done through soft
Easy to say... (Score:5, Insightful)
He states that gamers are now looking more towards next-gen titles, forgetting about the majority of Xbox titles.
Try telling that to my friends who own Xbox360s and complain that they have to keep their Xbox around to play a couple games they really like. Maybe they aren't the majority, but I know a few. I don't mean to come off sounding fanboy-ish, but that's one thing I think Sony did well. I only need to have my PS2 hooked up to play all of my PS1 and PS2 games.
Re:Easy to say... (Score:2)
Ah, but those friends of yours ALREADY HAVE an Xbox360. Sure, they may grumble about it a little but it obviously hasn't been a dealbreaker as far as buying
That's some nerve... (Score:5, Insightful)
Moore's comments shouldn't be misunderstood. MS will be adding to its backwards compatibility list
and still call the article
Microsoft Dismisses Xbox Compatibility
Best Selling Games (Score:3, Insightful)
I call bull (Score:5, Interesting)
But...
This article is bullshit.
Seriously, the backwards compatibility on the 360 was disappointing at launch, but we were promised it would improve. Since then, it has barely improved and many of the old A-list X-Box titles are still missing from the compatibility list. Hell, there are still major releases coming out for the X-Box which aren't compatible with the 360. Given we're now 6 months after launch, this is taking on the tone of a bad joke. The very few updates to the compatibility list that have appeared have been extremely short and have mostly been for C-list titles.
Burnout 3 (which I much prefer to Revenge), MechAssault 2, Chronicles of Riddick, Panzer Dragoon Orta and Star Wars Republic Commando aren't "forgotten" titles. They're titles which, as recently as 12 months ago in some cases, were being promoted as major, front-line titles. They're games I still get the urge to play on a regular basis. Hell, they're good. Many of these are among the later wave of X-Box titles which did so much to reclaim its credibility as a platform for games other than Halo. To still have these unplayable on the 360 is a farce.
Re:I call bull (Score:1)
Re:I call bull (Score:2)
Halo
Halo 2 (granted not revolutionary -- but well implemented and fun)
Crimson Skies
Ninja Gaiden (one of the best games ever made -- pure and simple)
Tony Hawk 4
Tony Hawk underground 2
OK, so six
Also,
winning eleven soccer
super monkey ball
So, if you can't find anything that you would like, then that is your fault. There are 8 games that span quite a range of genres that were well implemented and fun to play. Some single player, some multiplayer. The only thing r
Re:I call bull (Score:1)
Re:I call bull (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I call bull (Score:3, Interesting)
This is what is puzzling me, wouldn't it be rather trivial to allow developers to compile their newly released games for XBox360 as well and then just ship both binaries on the same DVD, so that the game could run on XBox as well as XBox360 out of the box? This however doesn't seem to be the case, this is a comment from the developer of Dreamfall, a recently released XBox Title:
Re:I call bull (Score:2)
It's far from trivial. Different CPU and different GPU. It's like porting a Windows game to run on a Power Mac. Except harder, because there is bound to more low-level code-tweaking going on to optimise performance. Ports often take a few months and a
Re:I call bull (Score:4, Insightful)
Both architectures however are programable with DirectX, so unless you have something highly optimized for one architecture, it should be trivial to port via a simple recompile, especially when the porting is already taken into account right in the beginning. And even if there are differences in the API, it should be trivial for Microsoft to fix those. That 'porting' wouldn't be meant to create a full XBox360 version, but just a XBox version running on a XBox360, so I really don't see where there would be much difficulty involved.
### It's like porting a Windows game to run on a Power Mac.
PowerMac doesn't have DirectX, but OpenGL, thats a whole different beast. Porting apps from PowerPC to IntelMac for example is simple, different arch, but same API, porting apps from IntelMac to Windows PC on the other side is extremly hard, same arch but very different API.
Re:I call bull (Score:2)
Even going from Power Mac to Intel Mac isn't trivial for complex programs. It's more then just a recompile for high-perfromance programs, particularly if they address hardware directly.
Re:I call bull (Score:2)
Microsoft has a emulator for running XBox games on XBox360, so whatever technique they used in that thing should be moveabel down into API space so that developers can make use of it. Or if all fails they could simply let the devolpers tweak the emulotar so that it will run their game *before* shipping it. However as it is now X
Re:I call bull (Score:2)
An API would possibly have been nice for consumers, but I can understand Microsoft's decision to not do it.
This is a strange.
Re:I call bull (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't really mind the 360 not being able to play titles like Panzer Dragoon Orta (as it was basically a release title for the original Xbox, IMO, it should be near last-priority), but it should *certainly* be able to play all original Xbox titles released *after* the 360 was released! If only to not confuse shoppers looking for new games.
So now I can't pack up my old
What the hell are they thinking? (Score:1)
Some of my favorite titles took backwards compatibility to the next step - importability. Like with the old Might and Magic games you could import characters from the previous game. The sega genesis had a hardware piece that would let you play master system games on the newer 16 bit console. That's right folks - 20th
They can do that for a simple reason (Score:3, Insightful)
X360: Far from it.
That's pretty much what it gets down to. A game company, facing the choice between releasing a game for a hacked (and "old") console or one for a new, unhacked, will release for the latter. For a few good reasons:
Yes, there are fewer X360s than XBoxes around. But many people who have a 360 also have an XBox. I.e. they'll get it, whether it's for the X or the 360. If it's for the old X, they might get a copy instead of buying it. Can't do that for the 360.
Swing and a pop fly (Score:2, Insightful)
And this attitude is what is irritating me. There are some must play titles that are still not on the list. Some games are just cool to play and how corny is it to have to keep the old xbox hooked up to th
Re:Swing and a pop fly (Score:2)
Obligatory Penny Arcade Reference (Score:3, Funny)
Wrong...backwards-compatibility is important (Score:2, Interesting)
The Xbox 360's selective backwards-compatibility is one of several reasons I chose not to invest in one. Sure, I can play Halo on my 360, but what if I want to play more obscure games like Otogi and JSRF? I have to haul out the Xbox.
Seriously, everyone has a handful of older and less-well-known games in their collection that they like to come back to now and then, but having to haul an entire console out of storage and hooking it up to the TV is a hassle. Sony is aware of this and made the PS2/PS3 back
Backwards compatability is now expected (Score:2)
I see a lot of people trying to compare the backwards compatibility issues with the XBox to previous systems in previous generations, good thought, but it really isn't a practical comparison. Who cares if the SNES didn't have BC, yet was a huge success; at the time the SNES came out, there was no standard of backwards compatibility. Heck, there wasn't any standard as to what a "next generation system" was supposed to be, as it was the first HUGE second generation of any particular line of consoles. We only
A tactical error.. (Score:2)
Secondly, because by positioning the 360 and original XBox as entirely separate consoles, they are now in a position of competing with themselves for marketshare. Whereas Sony were happy en
Re:In other words.. (Score:1)
The SNES didn't play NES games, and it wasn't the end of the world. Why? Because everyone who had NES games.... also had an NES.
Re:In other words.. (Score:3, Insightful)
The console's been out for almost five years, so we're nearing the MTBF on the hard drives, and the hard drive locking [xbox-linux.org] makes them nontrivial to replace.
I've got a fifteen-year-old SNES that still works (aside from my having to replace a broken power jack). How many XBoxes are going to have a fifteen-year lifespan?
Re:In other words.. (Score:1, Interesting)
Twelve.
I am lead to believe that the answer to your question is: twelve.
Re:In other words.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:In other words.. (Score:1)
Is the PS3 fully compatible with the PS1/2? I had heard it wasn't going to be.
Re:In other words.. (Score:2)
Goomba Color (Score:2)
You can't play any GB game older than GBA on the DS.
O RLY? [pocketheaven.com]
Re:Goomba Color (Score:1)
Re:Goomba Color (Score:1)
But c'mon, [Goomba Color is] a little ridiculous.
It's less ridiculous than trying to emulate previous systems on an Xbox. Homebrew on the GBA or Nintendo DS is a lot easier to get working than homebrew on the Xbox, given the completely external modification (MAX Media Launcher + SuperCard vs. hoping you get a 1.0 version of MechAssault, which has the exploit, and not the corrected version) and the more legit compiler (devkitARM vs. pirated XDK).
Also judging from the page you linked, it's not complete
Re:In other words.. (Score:2)
Re:In other words.. (Score:2, Informative)
I have a friend who replaces Xbox hard drives and other parts for parts+$20/hour. It can't be that hard to do. Besides, they still sell Xboxes, if you are that hard up for one. True, they won't in 10-15 years, but by then, I really doubt people will care that much. Also by then, most of the games will be available as downloads for whatever consoles are the s
Re:In other words.. (Score:2)
Re:In other words.. (Score:2)
Re:Microsoft knows best (Score:2)
In fairness, I understand your point w.r.t. the games that DO work. For my part, I've tried to put in some solid time with some of my original Xbox games in the hopes that XBL will 'see' this and convince them to continue to work on more back compat.
Re:Microsoft knows best (Score:2)
Unless next time I connect to Live, they send which save-games I have over the wire and construct ratings data from that.
Re:Who really thinks the PS3 will be %100 compatib (Score:1)
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_2 [wikipedia.org]
They could slap that into a PS3 and emulate the rest. Backwards compatability won't be as big of a problem on the PS3 as it is on the 360.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Pretty much the XBox 360 philosophy in a nutshe (Score:2)
Wii is a very similar architecture to Gamecube, so backward compability is trivial, XBox360 is a completly different beast then XBox, so backward compability for old games is hard. Doesn't mean that Microsoft shouldn't spend some more time to improve compability, but its a harder task then Nintendo has. Can't say anything about the PS3, not sure if they go emulation or just stick a PS2 into the PS3 box.
### A tilt sensing controll
Re:Why no complete backward compatibility ? (Score:2)
Sure enough you don't know much about hardware [i]and[/i] software if you think a seamless emulation of differing platforms is easy. It's not a matter of "incompetence", though I do believe that if they made it a priority instead of an "additional feature" Microsoft could do it.
"We all have fun on our emulators to Emulate any computer/game console ever made."
While we can emulate the hardware, not all the software works on all emula
Re:Why no complete backward compatibility ? (Score:2)
So why would an experienced Senior Software Engineer make the claim for simple and 100% seamless emulation for all games, especially those that stray from the DX framework to access the harware directly?