U.S. Pressures ISPs on Data Retention 221
packetmon writes "According to Wired's Declan McCullagh 'In a private meeting with industry representatives, Gonzales, Mueller and other senior members of the Justice Department said Internet service providers should retain subscriber information and network data for two years ... A more extensive mandate would require companies to keep track of e-mail messages sent, Web pages visited and perhaps even instant-messaging correspondents.'"
wow (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:wow (Score:3, Insightful)
Preserving ALL of your data IS possible (Score:4, Informative)
If you don't believe me, just look at the technical specs of the device which AT&T is using for the NSA. Also look at packetmotion.com. And, from looking at the job openings at dice.com, there's at least another startup on it's way to do the same thing in this market.
Right now, they can't keep all of your packet data for two years. But they CAN keep all of your connection data, and tell not only what sites you are connecting to, but also what type of connections you have. It's pretty useful for identifying Kazaa (et. al.) types of connections.
If you don't believe me, just ask the IT staff at UC Berkeley. They actively pursue this type of snooping on both faculty and students. They, and other Universities, are a preferred testing ground, since they throw such a load at the devices.
Now, why Universities encourage outside spying on the faculty and students is beyond me. But yes, this stuff is happening right now.
The current goal for all of these companies is to preserve ALL data for at least two years. They aren't there yet, as the disk space required is extensive. But they CAN do it for shorter periods of time, if one spends the money on filers.
What's more, it will only be a matter of time before they can preserve this data for at least two years, and longer. There are companies which make use of cheap fast SATA storage for about 1/5 the cost of a NetApp filer. 50 Terabytes is affordable; in 5 years, you're looking at affordable Petabyte storage.
The point here is that the Government is ahead of the curve, as they know it's only a matter of time before the disk storage required to keep all data is afforable. So they want this snooping in there now, as it will be a lot easiler to mandate that ISP's keep ALL data once they have these hooks in place.
So please quit misleading people into thinking that there's too much data. Snooping, reporting and storing this stuff is possible now, and is only going to get easier and cheaper in the near future.
Re:wow (Score:2)
-matthew
Re:wow (Score:3, Informative)
They don't retain the data: the volume would be far too high (as you say). They just (!!) track who mails who, who IMs with whom, and the websites you visit. Just liike an itemised phone bill, but covering the internet. The websites thing is unclear: I don't know if they're planning to just keep www.mybank.com, or whether the whole mybank.com/transaction.php?cardno=234587634958349 8 will be ret
Re:wow (Score:2)
For some reason I keep expecting that sinister music from the Twilight Zone to start playing.
Re:wow (Score:3, Informative)
Re:wow (Score:2)
If you keep to the right and don't pass for 50 miles in the UK, then you certainly are a suspicious person and the police has quite legitimate reason to have a little chat with you ;).
Re:wow (Score:2)
Re:wow (Score:2)
Re:wow (Score:2)
-matthew
Just keep thinking that buddy... (Score:2)
Honestly, how many terrorists are they going to catch? How many have they caught so far? How long do you think it will take them to find other uses for your information?
If you think it's ok for them to do this to 300,000,000 + Americans just to catch 5 or 6 terrorists, you deserve everything you get.
It's not an anti-terrorist thing. It's an anti-American thing.
Never forget that.
Re:Just keep thinking that buddy... (Score:2)
My grandmother is a naturalized American citizen. I talked to her for several hours a few weeks ago. I was amazed to hear her say that she does not care if the Gooberment listens in on he
Re:wow (Score:2, Insightful)
We ran a trial period to look at the issues (who wouldn't?) What we found was this:
(Hops over to firewall to get the stats..)
Over the 4 week trial period we captured 521Gb of data. Since we had only allocated 500Gb for the whole thing - this was worrying.
BTW - we use a full-duplex satellite
Hard Drives? Bah! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:wow (Score:2)
No, it's a child porn thing. RTFA. But these excuses are interchangeable; they'll be using it to track down everyone from Mafioso to school truants.
TAX AND SPEND TAX AND SPEND!!! (Score:2)
If the ISPs can't afford the disc space, then we'll provide it for them for free!
Then we can even spin it on them -
"We'll give you FREE hard drives if you'll just do us ONE little favor and record the data of all your customers. Simple stuff, email, transfer data, what percent was encrypted, destination IPs, peak activity times... 2 years later: Also if you want to keep those hard drives coming, we want chat logs, email
Re:TAX AND SPEND TAX AND SPEND!!! (Score:2, Informative)
Re:wow (Score:2)
I think it is funny that as new technology comes around, old technology seems to get forgotten. For instance, the buzz words I mostly see today are MySpace, BitTorrent, P2P, and chat rooms. Apparently we have forgotten
Why not just follow the formula in 1984? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why not just follow the formula in 1984? (Score:5, Insightful)
Laugh (Score:3, Insightful)
Admittedly it would be a lot funnier if I didn't live a stone's throw from the US (I checked once, and the local transit system goes to within 300 metres of the US border... although there is no border crossing at that location). It would be funnier still if I wasn't aware that Canada's latest batch of census data is being
Re:Why not just follow the formula in 1984? (Score:2)
Re:Why not just follow the formula in 1984? (Score:2)
Think of the possibilities, man!
There's no difference. (Score:4, Insightful)
We could scar the viewers as protesting (Score:2)
Do they realize the scope? (Score:5, Interesting)
Not to mention that all that extra has to be pored through. The FBI had gotten information on a case from homeland security, unfortunately they did not parse it down and the FBI agents lamented that they spent a majority of time chasing down pizza deliverys instead of spending more time on the actual case.
Image the uproar when (not if) a cracker gets into the database and abuses all that information.
The information gathered from users can also be used(abused) for blackmailing.
You might be asked to testify against someone, if not then well your employer and spouse might accidently find out about your surfing habits.
All in all, this sounds like a lose-lose situation for almost all involved.
Re:Do they realize the scope? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Do they realize the scope? (Score:2)
I need an analogy referee please (Score:2)
what's the basis-- # of pieces of each or amount of data contained within or 3-d mass volume of actual mail?
if you mean # of pieces.. if (fer analogious example) I had to store 1000 copies of of postal mail, or 100,000 pieces of email per person-- I know which would be simpler to arrange&store... the email.. I think the comparison to postal mail is useless..
conflicting goals (Score:5, Insightful)
"I will reach out personally to the CEOs of the leading service providers and to other industry leaders," Gonzales said. "Record retention by Internet service providers consistent with the legitimate privacy rights of Americans is an issue that must be addressed."
Privacy rights and citizen-snooping mix worse than water and oil.
Simple Solution (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Simple Solution (Score:2)
Re:Simple Solution (Score:2)
Re:Simple Solution (Score:2)
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Simple Solution (Score:2)
So you are a politically interested terrorist^Wcitizen, hmss? Slashdot... give us the user id corresponding to IP address w.x.y.z on 12:48 PM EST, CST or WST. Oh, here's the court order. How did we find the IP? Oh... we didn't need to tap anyone for that, ya... see... it's lawfull to snoop on all citizens, ya see?...
Re:Simple Solution (Score:2)
Re:Simple Solution (Score:2)
--jeffk++
Re:Simple Solution (Score:2)
That's the story this week. What was the story six months ago?
Not So Simple Solution (Score:2)
Constitutional Amendments? (Score:3, Interesting)
Also, from a technical point of view, why isn't Linux and other Open Source software using encryption by default? If emails are hard to encrypt as a matter of course, perhaps it's time for another system which handles messages strongly encrypted. I've heard about TOR from the EFF, and I remember the short-lived Triangle Boy system - it really sounds like this sort of thing needs to be made up and running sooner rather than later.
Re:Constitutional Amendments? (Score:3, Insightful)
But I do live in the US. From what I can gather, they want to create big nets or maps of people. Who contacts whom. They don't particularly care what people say initially. That comes later if something strikes their fancy. There was a story once where they ID'd some 911 people on a big chart using this info, but they did not keep the info; the military was not allowed. Now the legislation is catching up with the technology...Nevermind that the 911 person was only fingere
Re:Constitutional Amendments? (Score:2)
Re:Constitutional Amendments? (Score:2)
The short answer? Interoperability. If only 1 in 10 of my friends and family can read email from me, do you think I'll bother to use Linux?
instant-messaging correspondents? (Score:2)
It's lifted from the TFA but I guess this is supposed to mean 'instant messaging correspondence' (...in addition to logging the correspondents)?
log size (Score:3, Interesting)
Multiply that by 100s of thousands of users and you're looking at warehouses full of tapes and/or hard drives. That's if you're conservitive.
Log size and a full time person to manage it (Score:3, Interesting)
Should something like this actually happen, it would take not only a large amount of space, but for us, probably a full time person just to manage backing up the logs. For
Re:log size (Score:2)
26 GB is what I generate on one single evening surfing pr0n^H^H^H^Hwikipedia!
Re:log size (Score:2)
But if you're conservative, you're against "unfunded mandates", so you'll hate it.
But if you're republican (which is not now (and rarely was) synonymous with conservatism), you'll love it because it will be a good way to keep your party in power and since you just invested in disk drive manufacturers, its a double win.
Re:log size (Score:2)
Data Storage (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Data Storage (Score:2)
i'm scared.
More correctly, I'm sure AT&T wouldn't mind (Score:3, Insightful)
Usurper_ii
Re:More correctly, I'm sure AT&T wouldn't mind (Score:2)
You've just put all the "Little Fish" out of business.
Private Meeting? (Score:4, Insightful)
Distraction? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Distraction? (Score:3, Insightful)
From what I remember this isn't quite true... The NSA + AT&T case is about real time data mining, not blind storage of details of every connection made by an user. The case presented in this article enables investigators to get data about the past, even if nothing suspicious was detected at that time.
Freedom and Cost (Score:5, Insightful)
The cost of freedom and rights is paid not just on the battlefields of the wars we fight, but in our everyday lives. When we become so weak that we cannot accept that cost, then we cannot have rights and freedoms.
In Massachusetts, USA, we now have State Police on television, threatening the citizens of the State over seatbelt use. In the mad desire to save the last life, our government and police oppress and threaten not murderers or rapists, not armed robbers or burglars, but citizens commuting to work, mothers doing shopping, and old people on the way to bingo.
You can be sure that the requirement to hold all ISP information on individuals will extend from 2 years to 5 to 10. Then there will be a lifetime requirement on all communication by an individual.
They justify these incroachments on rights and freedoms by saying they are fighting crime and saving lives. We have to be strong enough to accept the consequences of our freedom to chose in our lives and tell them we are not mere cells in the body of society. We must tell them that we are not all "uncaught criminals" who must be monitored and spied upon by the government for our own good. We must tell them to go to hell.
Who moderated the real American a troll? (Score:2, Insightful)
The parent poster is dead correct. Not being spied on and continually asked "Your papers comrade" was supposed to be one of the touchstones of American citizenship. When I was growing up, I was often told that not enduring such things and NOT TOLERATING them was one of the many things that made us better than the Russians. People used to care enough about that citizenship to even brook contemplating the traitorous ideas Gonzales and the rest of the Bush administration keep coming up with.
The people in ch
Re:Freedom and Cost (Score:2)
It's funny that the the commercial threatens you with a fine, not accident statistics proving you are more likely to survive. Maybe there aren't any statistics? Or maybe people think money is worth more tha
Re:Freedom and Cost (Score:3, Insightful)
I wouldnt drem of driving a car without a seatbelt, I simply wouldn't feel safe doing that. For the same reason, I wouldnt ride a motorbike without a crash helmet. Is that a freedom issue too?
I was part of a 4 car shunt once (i was stationary, some drunken loon went into the car behind me). Without a
Re:Freedom and Cost (Score:2)
There's a problem which if we increase public healthcare at any point is going to rear its ugly head. It's already started in the form of the seatb
Re:Freedom and Cost (Score:2)
That's only part of it.
If insurance rates/costs was all there was to it, then the all we'd need is to remove liability for damage to people who don't wear seat belts.
It's also about forcing people to be sa
Re:Freedom and Cost (Score:3, Insightful)
On what basis can you make such a statement? Surely the insurance companies just pass their costs on to the policy holders. The costs of not wearing seatbelts is much more widespread than just the insurance companies (which is unlikely anyway). It drives up everyone's insurance rates. For children it is surely a case of parental neglect to put them in a car unrestrained. There is also a societal cost associated with carnage on the highways. O
Re:Freedom and Cost (Score:2)
You misspelled "increase profit margins". Seriously, when was the last time an auto insurance company ever passed savings back to their policy holders?
In Connecticut non-seat-belt-use is just cause. (Score:2)
Your argument that this law is just because I can negatively affect others through non-use of a seatbelt is a bit reaching, don't you think?
Re:In Connecticut non-seat-belt-use is just cause. (Score:2)
Re:In Connecticut non-seat-belt-use is just cause. (Score:2)
Natural selection of idiots who don't wear seatbelts should not be allowed to run it's course because it impact upon others - from the children in the care of idiots to other road users. When it gets down to it, laws are there for the good of the state and luckily the state is at least theoretically there in a d
Can you find your penis? (Score:2)
Same principle, don't you know?h
Re:Freedom and Cost (Score:2)
How does this make any sense? I would think that someone who is more likely to be injured in a crash, to drive more safely. If there is a 100% chance that you will die in an accident, you had better make sure that you don't get in an accident. However, if there is a 100% chance that you won't get injured, then why would you even worry about whether or not you got in an accident.
Re:Freedom and Cost (Score:2)
The Supreme Court disagrees with you.
Harris v. United States, 390 U.S. 234 (1968)
And in a separate meeting... (Score:2)
Re:And in a separate meeting... (Score:2)
To prevent that the goverment would have to outlaw stupidity.
we analyzed your e-behavior... (Score:4, Funny)
How do you plea?
Re:we analyzed your e-behavior... (Score:2)
>.4
Time to buy shares in... (Score:2)
If nobody listens when we object on privacy grounds, at least object on environmental grounds... how many kw is it going to take to power the systems to record this data?
Oh well... at least somebody is backing up my data, even if it's not me
(Not that i'm in the US, but i'm sure my government can't be far behind)
My Contribution (Score:4, Funny)
Enough (Score:2, Interesting)
How you can you not think Bush is Evil? (Score:3, Interesting)
The Bush administration is eroding our privacy rights through warantless wiretapping of American Citizens phone calls, and we dont know if its only international phone calls because there has been no investigation of this, we only have the people who are violating the FISA statue's word on this. FISA was set up for exactly this purpose. Not only that, they have a database of nearly every phonecall made in America, and they are using it to monitor phonecalls made by reporters to find leaks in their own administration without warrants.
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?pid=83880 [thenation.com]
As for our legal protections, this administration wants to be able to detain indefinitely without trial anyone suspected of terrorism, Jose Paddilla is a American born citizen and though he will now be tried as a criminal due to the threat of his case going to the supreme court. This administration wished to detain him indefinitely without trial prior to that threat. That is scary and unprecedented. Were not talking about legal resident aliens, or people who illegal gained entry into the country, this guy was born here as a citizen and under the constitution he deserves a trial, every citizen deserves a trial, thats a fundamental right.
As for increased government secrecy and decreased accountability we have documents being reclassified under the freedom of information act, and non-compliance for freedom of informaiton act requests. Its not just security related concerns, but corrupt things like whether a power plant is up to code and is likely to have an accident, hand outs to his industrialist buddies. Another nice tidbit hidden from the public for a long time by Bush's rewritting of the Freedom of Information act is a memo from Exxon mobil to the Bush white house demonstrating the influence of oil companies on this administration's global warming policy's. All of this having nothing to do with national security but being withheld from the public just because it protects monied interests or can embarrass elected officials.
Re:How you can you not think Bush is Evil? (Score:2)
Yeah, but... (Score:2)
At this point, I was beginning to think that the R's went after him because they were jealous. Well, at least until I heard about the whole Dusty Foggo hookers, poker, and scotch thing. I guess the R's are just dicks.
so welcome., my son... (Score:2, Funny)
Check their own logs! (Score:2)
And whether they'd like theor own logs posted for all to see!
The easy way for ISPs to snitch: DNS (Score:2)
Storage Space (Score:2)
I won't do it (Score:2)
Not only is it a privacy violation, the amount of money that would be required to store that information for 2 years is staggering. I'm not spending hundreds of thousands of dollars or more and violating
Re:I won't do it (Score:2)
Ludicrous. (Score:2)
I wonder who's going to pay for all this data retention? Oh yeah, it
EU is already at it (Score:2)
ISPs will have to keep data for 6 to 24 months. This will exclude URLs visited, but include the name, address, IP adress etc of every user, and also the addreses they send emails to or receive emials from.
ISPs are currently negotiating with national governments on the exact wordin
JAP Project (Score:2, Informative)
Watch For Follow-Up Laws To Ban Things Like... (Score:4, Interesting)
Until then, consider contributing to these kinds of projects, as they soon may be the only things standing between you and governments being able to track and parse every communication you make.
Does anyone else find it ironic that some of the most "free" countries are some of the former Soviet Unions' 'client' states?
Cheers!
Strat
Seagate? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Whos going to pay for this dumb idea? (Score:3, Informative)
Personally I don't see little that can be really achieved with this approach to actually prevent terrorist, since there are dozens of ways that can be used to circumvent this data mining approach.. and even a 12-year old can think of them.
I think one might only be able to do something with when something has actually happened, parsing these amounts of data in rea
Re:Whos going to pay for this dumb idea? (Score:3, Insightful)
I hate to say "I told you so," but this is just another example of legal harmonization.
Push push push for laws in
Re:If they want this... (Score:2)
Goverment rips all that money in the form of taxes... everyone pays.
If ISPs paid for this themselves, then only the customers of those ISPs would pay.
Re:If they want this... (Score:2)
It amazes me that people first and foremost think about costs and how this thing could technically work/not work.
Who cares about rights..
Re:Which is more important to you? (Score:2)
But you can have them only if you're willing take
RESPONSIBILITY.
The moment you allow someone else to be responsible for your freedom *or* your security, you start losing both of them.
Re:Which is more important to you? (Score:2)
Back then they thought Communism was a good idea; the state would take care of all your needs. Plenty of security, but little to no personal freedom.
Re:Whats stopping them from forging this data? (Score:2)