A Solar Race Around the World 139
garzpacho writes "In Switzerland, two teams are vying to be the first to circle the globe in a solar powered vehicle--one team in a boat, the other in an airplane. The boat, a two person trimaran, is the brainchild of PlanetSolar, who hopes to circumnavigate the world In 80 days. Solar Impulse is fielding the single-pilot plane, which will be capable of taking off under its own power and flying all night. Both groups hope to bring greater attention to solar power, which they believe is more appropriate for alternative transportation than for automobiles."
solar panels (Score:3)
Maybe for a tram system where the power can go to both the engine and the track?
Re:solar panels (Score:3, Informative)
Re:solar panels (Score:2)
Daytime flights (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Daytime flights (Score:2)
Re:Daytime flights (Score:2)
I agree ! Add solar to this below and it would be really nice .
http://www.fuellessflight.com/ [fuellessflight.com]
Ex-MislTech
Re:Daytime flights (Score:2)
Re:Daytime flights (Score:2)
Helium is the second most abundant element in the known Universe .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium [wikipedia.org]
Re:Daytime flights (Score:2)
On a universe scale, hydrogen and helium are the most common elements. But being so light, most planets don't have enough gravity to retain significant quantities of either of them in pure form (and those that do, like Jupiter, aren't ideal for us to live on). Hydrogen is reactive though, so it forms compounds (eg. water), and those compounds are heavy enough to be retained. But helium is unreactive (that's the *definition* of a
Re:Daytime flights (Score:2)
Re:Daytime flights (Score:2)
Now assuming you'd have a hydrogen-based airliner, you could now perhaps use solar energy to generate hydrogen. (With the obvious problem that you'd need to get water somewhere, but maybe the engine would allow you to keep so
One word (Score:1)
Re:One word (Score:2)
Pretzel Logic, anyone? (Score:3, Funny)
The best way for alternative fuel sources to become popular is for them to become economically viable. By buying a hybrid engine (a hybrid car, for example), you are providing downward pressure on fossil fuel demand, and normal supply-and-demand economics tells us that this will provide downward pressure on fuel prices.
Hybrids are a "half step" toward alternate energy sources. We need full
Re:Pretzel Logic, anyone? (Score:3, Insightful)
Hybrids are an excellent half step because they provide incentive for car companies to improve electrical transmission technology, something we will need if we want to use practically any other energy source. If current theories about oil demand exceeding supply are true (and I can see no reason why they wouldn't be), oil (and thus transportation) prices are going to simply go up.
Re:liquid fuels vs alternatives (Score:2)
Re:liquid fuels vs alternatives (Score:2)
Re:liquid fuels vs alternatives (Score:2)
Re:liquid fuels vs alternatives (Score:2)
An average car engine puts out 100hp easy. While you don't use that full power often you do use on average around 20hp to sustain highway speeds and a good bit of it during acceleration. Even at idle you have an engine pr
Re:liquid fuels vs alternatives (Score:2)
A simpler and smarter way to work out the numbers is to use the fuel itself:
my wife's car uses 20L/week when she commuted to work (she now catches the train).
20L*(8.76kWh/L)/7 = 25kWh
I'm not sure what difference using purely electrical cars migh
Re:liquid fuels vs alternatives (Score:2)
Re:liquid fuels vs alternatives (Score:2)
easily fixable.
suburban commute distances,
Chicken and egg.
and Inclement weather it has severe limitations. Hell inclement weather can take out whole seaons in some areas (harsh winters).
With modern fabrics I don't see this as being a problem. wind is a problem, but that is fixable by suitable bike-road design (screening trees, bike-tube type things, etc). I've riden in -20C in canada on a still day and still got hot and sweaty.
And lack of driver
Re:liquid fuels vs alternatives (Score:2)
easily fixable.
You expect me to stuff a suit into a backpack? When you work in blue jeans and a t-shirt, sure, go for it. But I don't.
suburban commute distances,
Chicken and egg.
So what is the solution to this? Spend billions in infrastructure on something that most people are *unwilling* to use? I'm an avid cycler (I'm doing my first sprint triathlon this year), but even *I* don't want to bike 20+ miles back and forth to work every day.
Re:liquid fuels vs alternatives (Score:2)
Snow and ice is a problem, but I can think of 3 different solutions off the top of my head. Perhaps you should read what I wrote again?
Re:liquid fuels vs alternatives (Score:2)
I do think you dismiss the impacts of weather a bit to blithely. So you can de
Re:liquid fuels vs alternatives (Score:2)
You summed up your position in the last paragraph:
Can biking become a more practical
Re:liquid fuels vs alternatives (Score:2)
All I was pointing out was the current reality where I live (and it is similar in many areas of the US) is not the same as where
Re:liquid fuels vs alternatives (Score:2)
Thanks for the interesting discussion - I always enjoy an argument where I learn something.
Re:Daytime flights (Score:1)
Re:Daytime flights (Score:1)
That has a screen door on it.
Re:Daytime flights (Score:2)
I wonder if ion thrusters work any better...
Umm, yeah, I'll be a little late today... (Score:5, Funny)
Literally.
Re:Umm, yeah, I'll be a little late today... (Score:2, Redundant)
Unless you know people who keep their cars in orbit, then everybody's car is under the weather. Literally.
-1 Obvious (Score:1)
Re:-1 Obvious (Score:2)
Solar-powered circumnavigation? Already done. (Score:5, Insightful)
Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the wind "solar powered"? So humankind has been circumnavigating the globe in "solar-powered" boats for many centuries!
Note: I know some wind currents are driven by the earth's rotation, but the earth rotates because it's orbiting the sun, right? Still solar-powered!
Re:Solar-powered circumnavigation? Already done. (Score:3, Informative)
Spinning Earth (Score:2)
That "something big enough" is already here. It's called tides. The difference in the force of gravity on the near and far side of the moon have locked it into a 1:1 rotation:orbit configuration with the earth. The same will eventually happen with the earth and the sun. Of course, it will take a much longer time, but barring external influences, it will happen.
Re:Spinning Earth (Score:2)
Be careful with your wording, here - the moon is tidally locked to the Earth. Earth is NOT tidally locked to the moon. In fact, if Earth WERE tidal
Re:Solar-powered circumnavigation? Already done. (Score:1)
Re:Solar-powered circumnavigation? Already done. (Score:2)
Note: I know some wind currents are driven by the earth's rotation, but the earth rotates because it's orbiting the sun, right? Still solar-powered!
Well, technically EVERYTHING on Earth exists because of the Sun. Except for the tides, which exist because of the moon. But it exists because of us, and we, again, exist because of the Sun.
But I totally
Re:Solar-powered circumnavigation? Already done. (Score:2)
The Moon exist because of us ? I deny everything, it wasn't me, no one saw me do it, you can't prove anything !
Re:Solar-powered circumnavigation? Already done. (Score:2, Informative)
FYI, the Sun also has an effect on the tide, though apparently only about half that of the moon.
Source: Second paragraph of Tide [wikipedia.org].
[/nitpicking]
Well if you go that route (Score:3, Insightful)
Next time you tank remember, it is all natural.
Re:Solar-powered circumnavigation? Already done. (Score:2)
Staying up with the sun is hard (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Staying up with the sun is hard (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Staying up with the sun is hard (Score:2)
Re:Staying up with the sun is hard (Score:1)
Actually I saw a plane in a flying mag the other day which uses this coupled with very efficient battery to be almost self sustaining, the theory being that some of the energy spent going up will be recovered while going back down -- add a few thermals to the mix, and you can end up breaking even, or even possibly with surplus energy. I'd google a link, but I'm sort of hung over..
links in engilsh (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.solar-impulse.com/scripts/page7655.htm
http://www.planetsolar.org/planetsolar.en.shtml [planetsolar.org]
Ouch (Score:1)
Does anyone else feel pain when reading that?
Re:Ouch (Score:1)
Re:Ouch (Score:1)
Re:Ouch (Score:2)
Greek and Latin Roots [msu.edu]
Now be grateful - I could have modded you offtopic instead.
Stupid strategy (Score:3, Funny)
Stupid, stupid, stupid. Everyone knows solar power is *WAY* more available during the day!
Sailboat? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Sailboat? (Score:3, Informative)
But not more reliable. Solar panels could be installed inside a hard shell of (say) lexan and easily survive a hurricane.
Sails and masts are likely to be damaged by the wind.
Re:Sailboat? (Score:5, Interesting)
Unfortunately a trimaran covered in solar panels is the worst kind of boat to be in during a hurricane, because its got lots of non removable surface area and its very light. A friend of mine was on board his trimaran during Hurricane Georges [wikipedia.org] in 1998 and he was flipped three times.
Sails and masts are likely to be damaged by the wind.
Sails can be removed, and masts are very strong. I was on board my boat during Hurricane Lenny [wikipedia.org] and the strength of the mast and rigging was not an issue. In olden times with weaker rigging it might have been, but they used to take spars down when not in use.
Re:Sailboat? (Score:2)
We've been sailing for thousands of years. I would think we've figured out how to do it safely by now, or else we'd have stopped a long time ago.
A boat covered in solar panels should sound like a terrible idea to anybody who's ever sailed in their lifetime (because it is!)
Re:Sailboat? (Score:2)
Sure, but oars are even better. I'll use Americans as oarsmen and let them pay for it. Anyone interested in a weight loss and fitness vacation on sea?
Why fly at night? (Score:3, Interesting)
If you're flying around the world, couldn't you arrange it so it's always daytime?
---
watch funny commercials [tubespot.com]
Re:Why fly at night? (Score:1)
For a solar power plane to stay in daylight at the equator, it would have to travel at near or above that speed, above mach 1. Not going to happen, at least not with todays techology.
Sure, at higher lattitudes the needed speed goes down, but you have to get pretty high for it to get low enough, and then you might not be able to race the boat.
Re:Why fly at night? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Why fly at night? (Score:2)
Re:Why fly at night? (Score:2)
Yep, if you start at midday and make sure you're travelling at 1669 kph (Mach 1.7), you'll have the sun overhead for the whole trip. Actually, by starting at sunrise and landing at dusk, you could travel a fair bit slower - about 1100kmh (Mach 1.1), I think. probably not achievable with solar power, but not that far out of reach either.
Re:Why fly at night? (Score:2)
If your solar power is driving a propeller, M1.1 is most definitely not achievable.
Re:Why fly at night? (Score:2)
696.318 mph which is actually mach 0.914755 (yes I'm bored)
Re:Why fly at night? (Score:2)
I didn't use any air density, temp or other vars in my quick calcs... so the number corresponds with sea level if sea level were 70,000 feet higher than it is
Re:Why fly at night? (Score:2)
but if you've already got it worked out, please do inform the rest of us...
I've been too busy playing around with my bluetooth phone and Sailing Clicker and my MBP, finally found a solution for CPU whine and watching Blazing Saddles.
Not bored anymore.
Huh? (Score:4, Insightful)
"Both groups hope to bring greater attention to solar power, which they believe is more appropriate for alternative transportation than for automobiles."
What? That doesn't make any sense. How does a plane flying around the world or a boat floating around the world affect my commute? I don't know about you guys but solar vs gas isn't what stops me from driving a boat or plane to work. That would be cool, commutes would be fun instead of boring traffic, though I bet if everyone did it there would be crashes galore (especially the planes). Plus - why do we have to choose solar power or cars - what I want a solar powered car?
To be fair, one of the teams (boats), for some reason seems to make this comparison. I doubt there are many places where what they say is feasable. I don't care how effecient solar boats are - I can't drive one to work and I bet very very very few people in the whole freaking world can (of course, there are some - but then I bet alot of them do so to avoid traffic. It's no big deal to hit 60-70 in a boat and no traffic, not to mention the "fun" factor. I know I would do so in a heart beat).
As to what the parent article said - I don't see why this makes a difference in perception. I find the challenge pretty neat and plan to follow it (no problems there - great geeky/tech story), but making it happen doesn't really change my commute in any way. Jeese, a wind powered boat made a world wide traversal a few hundred years ago (continent to continent a few thousand years ago) - doesn't make wind powered cars any more useful or practical. A solar transversal isn't going to change much either. Again - not that I don't think this is useful or neat (anything that advances our understanding is worth it - I'm fully aware that solving thier problems may lead to some great advances and wish them great success - I want to see our dependancy on oil vanish for a variety of reasons), if thier goal is to raise perception of solar powered commute this isn't the way.
Back to geeking out - my bet is on the plane. Unless it's *really* slow I can't see it beating the boat. Especially given the plane can fly a fairly straight line (even with air space restrictions) compared to the boat. As to which will be made first - my bet is the boat. If the motor fails you still get to float, a plane loosing power is deadly.
Re:Huh? (Score:2)
Re:Huh? (Score:4, Interesting)
It captures the attention of the masses, and somebody steps up and says 'I want one of those' and somebody else steps up and says 'I want one something like that' and somebody else steps up and says 'I want one of those!' and the manufacturing of solar panels goes into overdrive and the price comes down and the capability goes up and its affordable to make solar powered buses and the city does that and makes them free for use to cut down on the traffic fumes and all of a sudden your life is better.
Ok, its just the first step..
It's no big deal to hit 60-70 in a boat
Its quite a big deal to reach those kind of speeds in a boat. Its not like getting into a car and putting your foot down, think about what would happen to your car if there were 10cm bumps in the road, and 10cm bumps in the water is nothing.
Re:Huh? (Score:2)
This would depend. In the past airships travled in excess of 120kph. This isn't exactly what one would call super steller in terms of speed, in fact it's about the speed of your average car. But imagine how handy this would be if you combined old airship technology with solar power. You would have the ability to create links between two points without mucking around with making highways, laying rail, or doing
Re:Huh? (Score:2)
Amsterdam with it
Re:Huh? (Score:2)
Lost (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Lost (Score:1)
My bet goes with the boat (Score:4, Interesting)
But, any dolt could take a nice, efficient catamaran, replace the sales with a solar rigging and a trolling motor, load the boat down with some MREs, and start sailing.
Not saying it'd be pleasant, but I'd rather sit on a Hobicat than try to get through the night in an ultralight plane knowing that battery life would just *barely* make it through the night, with almost no margin for error. (and yes, I'm a pilot)
The kind of aspect ratio [wikipedia.org] they're talking about would be mighty difficult to fly, since it would be very prone to flutter, and the difference between the cruising speed and the stall speed would be almost negligable!
Not to mention having to be both very lightweight and also very strong...
Scary!
Better to fuel up a general aviation craft on butanol [butanol.com] call it "green" and be done with it! Really, when you read up on it, butanol is some seriously cool stuff.
1) It mixes freely with gasoline
2) It burns like gasoline, in cars unmodified,
3) It can be made from corn, wheat, cheese whey, just about any agricultural product or byproduct.
4) It handles moisture much better than ethanol.
5) It's possible to extract more energy (in BTU) as butanol from corn then as ethanol.
Seriously, the fuel of the future for the United States is here, and it's butanol. (Bio-Diesel is probably more appropriate for Europe, where they have many more diesel cars than the US which is almost all gasoline-powered)
Just as green, and much easier on the pilot!
Re:My bet goes with the boat (Score:3, Informative)
You know, the guy behind Solar Impulse is Bertrand Piccard [wikipedia.org], the first man to travel around the world nonstop in a balloon, and AFAIK the only one to date (together with his copilot Brian Jones, of course). So he knows what he talks about when he talks about pushing the envelope. Oh, and he got 15 million S
Re:My bet goes with the boat (Score:2)
Re:My bet goes with the boat (Score:2)
I'm underwhelmed... (Score:2)
The Wind from the Sun (Score:1)
ANYWAY. Haven't first thought of that, I then read the article, and somehow what they're proposing just pales in comparison.
Reverse light trick? (Score:1)
I've seen what happens... (Score:2, Funny)
you get stuck on some island in the middle of the pacific and have to push some stupid button every 108 minutes...
After reading that headline... (Score:1)
All very well, but ... (Score:3, Interesting)
What I'd like to see is an "open source" methodology.
If you want to make something happen in say, Linux, you can look at what someone else has already done, then tweak it to make it do what you need it to do. With our advances in bio-tech, surely there must be a future in bio-engineering some specific plant life to produce high amounts of usable energy. I know that there are bacteria that produce h2 etc. but the scale is insufficient.
What I imagine is, a plant that converts prodigious amounts of energy (ie bamboo can grow 6 feet in a day) and subverting that energy so that instead of producing growth, it produces a chemical that can be used to directly power an engine of some variety. An engine is defined as something that converts energy into work done.
In the end, we need a symbiosis to fulfill our transportation requirements. Back in the days, man used a horse or a cow, to pull a cart. The animal got its food from grazing grass which got its energy directly (but not completely) from the sun.
So why can't we follow that approach ? Utilise a very efficient system that nature has "designed" and subvert it to our own ends. After all, fossil fuels are only stored solar power.
Taking nanotech into account, it may be possible to create a muscle structure that when it is working generates an amount of electrical current. The muscle would get its "nutrition" from the chemical produced by the bio-engineered plant. The plant would get its energy from the sun. We could foster the initial growth of the plant in the ocean or tanks (for safety) much like an algae bloom, so we would only have to fill our "tanks" with a green goop once a month for example. The extra compounds the plant needs to survive (minerals etc) would be provided by the dead goop we have already used (think ginger beer plant). We still have to utilise the electrical energy more efficiently of course, but our motors are getting pretty good.
I realise this is all probably very naive, and I'm not a scientist in any way, at all ! But it seems to me that all our thinking has been towards shortcuts, ie. sun -> solar panel -> power instead of taking the natural route of sun -> plant -> food -> animal -> power.
We need to aim at creating a living system.
Maybe I'm talking out of my ninth planet, but the saying "haste makes waste" seems to apply as solar panels aren't very efficient.
Of course, you could say that my ideal involves many more stages and so is less efficient, but each stage would be as close to maximum efficiency as nature has got to already.
I'll get my coat.
Re:All very well, but ... (Score:3, Insightful)
is WAY WAY less efficient than
sun -> solar panel -> power.
sun->plant is something like 1.5% efficient, and still needs to be converted somehow to perform useful work. Compare that to even crappy solar panels of 8% efficiency, where the output is something we can use directly.
Re:All very well, but ... (Score:2)
Sun -> solar panel -> power
is actually:
Sun + Man's total energy expended creating Solar Panel -> Solar Panel -> Power
Yes plants often require man's intervention on some level for efficiency as well but it's a lot less than that required for a solar panel, which is why solar panels are much more expensive to produce than a plant.
Animals that eat plants do a fair job of converting them to useful energy, which is then available for us to convert to even more use
Re:Practicality over 'efficiency' (Score:2)
Why not use clorophyl (Score:2)
Prior art (Score:2)
For that matter, wind is driven by differential heating of the Earth's atmosphere by the Sun, so Magellan might have a claim on being first with the boat variant.
Re:The only thing they forget is (Score:1, Informative)
Re:The only thing they forget is (Score:2)
Re:The only thing they forget is (Score:2)
Re:The only thing they forget is (Score:2)
Re:The only thing they forget is (Score:2)
Re:The only thing they forget is (Score:1)
Re:The only thing they forget is (Score:2)
Re:It's impossible (Score:2)