Sony Hints At PS3 'Homebrew' Linux Plans 128
simoniker writes "Talking to the Japanese press, Sony executive Izumi Kawanishi has illuminated some of his company's PlayStation 3 Linux plans, indicating that it will be possible for individual 'homebrew' coders to create playable content for PS3, something actively blocked for Sony's PSP handheld. He commented: "Other then game studios tied to official developer licenses, we'd like to see various individuals participate in content creation for the PS3"."
Don't get your hopes up (Score:5, Informative)
1) Sony crippled it and didn't give anything close to direct access to hardware, meaning very little hardware acceleration
2) Sony charged a big chunk of change to "buy" linux support
And Sony is actively trying to kill off PSP homebrew. So don't get your hopes up!
Why not? (Score:2)
"indicating that it will be possible for individual 'homebrew' coders to create playable content for PS3"
seems to directly address your concern?
The most obvious answer is that Sony learned from the past lack up update with PS2 linux and furthermore wants to seed a variety of cool downloadable games, which they can take a cut of. Sounds pretty straightforward to me.
Re:Why not? (Score:4, Informative)
This is why you should be concerned:
If the article is to be believed, you don't get access to any of the normal libraries. If they don't give us specs, either, then you're not going to be doing much 3D...
So what? (Score:2)
It doesn't matter as long as you have direct access to the graphics processors. Then people can craft thier own libraries. Yes it's unlikely that we'll see MGS5 - Joe Schmo edition, but we'll see a lot of cool smaller games I think if people are allowed to develop and share them online.
There are plenty of free engines people could also port if they really need libraries.
Re:So what? (Score:5, Interesting)
Spoken like someone that has never written a line of code.
If having direct access is all that you need then where are the free drivers for nVidia and Ati graphics cards?
Having access isn't enough. You need drivers!
If we are lucky Sony will give you a frame-buffer. Good enough for Frozen-bubble but not enough to get me to pay $600+ for.
Re:So what? (Score:3, Interesting)
Spoken like someone that has never written a line of code.
If having direct access is all that you need then where are the free drivers for nVidia and Ati graphics cards?
Having access isn't enough. You need drivers!
Actually I have done a fair amount of OpenGL programming.
I pretty obviosuly did not mean THAT direct. I meant some standard way to acces sthe graphics card, it's kind of hard to image there will not be an OpenGL library or at least device drive for the video card we can access.
You are coming at t
Standalone games, or just mods? (Score:2, Interesting)
Sony themseves has said they want this to be able to build user provided content.
That's "user provided content", not "user provided programs". People writing about the entertainment industry tend to use the term "content" to refer to any work other than a computer program. Such a statement could just refer to mods (maps, models, and missions) for existing licensed games, right?
Content means just that (Score:2)
I used to play 3D games (Score:2)
Re:I used to play 3D games (Score:1)
Re:I used to play 3D games (Score:1)
Sure, they may have better graphics, physics, and storylines, but they're still the same gameplay and everything.
And hardware acceleration has nothing to do with how pretty a game looks. I've seen OpenGL and DirectX games that look like HELL, and I've seen games that aren't hardware-accelerated that look pretty good. Pretty graphics require an artist, not a graphics card.
Re:So what? (Score:1)
He's right - if you have the time and the willpower you can do it. Hey, that's what people did for the Xbox, didn't they? Hack it and figure out a way to run Linux on it?
Again, why not? (Score:2)
No it may not be documented but if "amateurs" can emulate consoles from scratch and put homebrew software on hardware that tries to fight them then I don't think this will be too much of a problem.
What I wonder is not the access to libraries but to the hardware. Will the Cell really be fully available?
I
Re:Why not? (Score:2)
If PS2 Linux is any indication, you'll get access to a good deal of the system's functionality; six of the seven core libraries were opened up (well, given out, anyway), with low-level I/O being the exception, for a number of reasons. (Region-free DVD players and modified game images that boot from Linux are two possibilities that spring to mind.)
The problem is that Sony doesn't own any complex, reusable 3D or physics engines, at least to the best of my knowledge. That's why platforms like Havok and Rend
Re:Why not? (Score:2)
People learn, animals learn, corporations do not learn. The most obvious answer to me is that Sony got some good press from PS2 Linux (I know I was excited - I had a PS2 Linux mousepad for a couple years). Now they hope to suck in some users that Microsoft just plain won't touch. Seems
Who then (Score:2)
What do you think composes corperations? Hint: It's not animals, but they learn.
The most obvious answer to me is that Sony got some good press from PS2 Linux (I know I was excited - I had a PS2 Linux mousepad for a couple years). Now they hope to suck in some users that Microsoft just plain won't touch. Seems obvious to me.
That's far fetched at best, given that they got really little press at all from the last round of PS2 stuff. You are ignoring som
Re:Don't get your hopes up (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Don't get your hopes up (Score:5, Interesting)
It appears that it's more Linux++ this time (Score:4, Informative)
- Kutaragi at the recent 2006 PlayStation Business Briefing [next-gen.biz]
- Kutaragi at the earlier PS3 Conference Report [1up.com]
It would appear then that things aren't all that bleak. Maybe IBM had an influence this time around, as they would love to see the Cell succeed, and perhaps forced Sony to open up a bit.
This time IS different (Score:1, Interesting)
The PS3, however, looks more capable in all ways than the PowerPC Mac-Minis -- which makes it capable enough to be someone's primary PC.
If they play the Linux card right, this is Sony's chance to take the Workstation market (the Cell chip is indeed awesome - I'm evaluating starting a company building a High-Def H264 video encoder with it
Re:Don't get your hopes up (Score:1)
Much the same way as the original PlayStation "Yaroze" program failed. Apart from the high cost of hardware and program enrollment ($700 USD if I recall), no direct hardware access was provided for. You were limited to linking functions to rapidly aging libraries on the boot disc which could never be upgraded. Throw in the world's most sparse documentation and you've got an exercise in masochist programming.
I am not terribly thrilled about Sony's plans for homebrew software development on the PS3, but i
Re:THIS IS WRONG (Score:3, Insightful)
Do you think it's possible that somebody other than you might find this restriction to be too onerous for PS2 Linux to be worthwhile?
Personally, I would never want to write code for a system where one major piece (the optical drive, for crying out loud!) is inaccessible. I'm sure this was Sony's bright idea to prevent piracy -- and we see how well that's working. Game piracy seems to be happening regardless, s
NO YUO (Score:2)
He is absolutely right to say that it was crippled and didn't allow access to the hardware.
Fool me once! (Score:5, Insightful)
The PS2 was supposed to support Linux. How many homebrewers bought the PS2 dev kit and actually had success?
How about the amazing no-show on the PSP?
And now the PS3 is supposed to be friendly? It'd be cheaper to buy a MacMini and howebrew up something for Ubuntu or OS X than the Sony PS3.
Good luck putting 4 players around a 17" (Score:1)
It'd be cheaper to buy a MacMini
Most Mac mini computers are not connected to a television, so good luck getting an audience for a 4-player same-screen game in the tradition of Tetris or Bomberman that's meant to be played on a platform typically connected to a 17" monitor.
Re:Good luck putting 4 players around a 17" (Score:2)
I wouldn't bet on that. A lot of Mac minis are going to be hooked up to the TV. Not to mention they mythical Apple PVR
But how many Macs? (Score:1)
Even if a large percentage of Mac mini computers are connected to televisions large enough for four players, that's a large percentage of what number? How many Mac mini computers have been sold or will be sold by November 2007? How many PS3 consoles will be sold by the same date?
Re:But how many Macs? (Score:2)
Re:Good luck putting 4 players around a 17" (Score:2)
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it were the least common "social type" in gaming, losing to single player, turn-based and online multiplayer.
Just because a machine is not commonly sold with the required $10 cable to connect to a television, does not mean it is useless as a gaming machine.
Re:Fool me once! (Score:2)
Good on Sony.
This will change everything! (Score:5, Funny)
Remember how PS2 homebrew development exploded when the PS2 Linux kit came out? Remember how many new and exciting independant games were released for the PS2?
This is going to be awesome.
grammar error...sounds good (Score:1)
I think this would be a good move for Sony. I would definitely reconsider purchasing the console if I could run linux on it and I think many other people would reconsider too. $599 isn't too bad for a console+linux PC.
Re:grammar error...sounds good (Score:2)
Cell still has a PPE (Score:1)
You can't just recompile an application and have it work nicely on the Cell.
A single-threaded app such as a typical 2D game will run OK on the Cell processor's PPE alone provided that the compiler is configured for the number of pipes. Sure, the PPE lacks out-of-order, but out-of-order helps primarily when running i586 code on a PII/PIII, or PII/PIII code on a P4, or Pentium code on an Athlon, etc. If you know that all Cell processors have the same pipeline configuration, you can tell the compiler to re
Re:Cell still has a PPE (Score:2)
Re:Cell still has a PPE (Score:1)
For the price of the console it's better to buy a real i386.
But if you buy a real PC (whether wintel or macintel) and connect it to a TV, then you won't have access to a library of console-style games that are designed to be played by four players, each holding a gamepad, looking at the same screen. Most games that are developed for PCs require one computer per player and one display per player, and that's a lot more expensive than $600.
Re:grammar error...sounds good (Score:2)
I have old games I wouldn't mind porting if the console has decent GL support. Typical of one-developer games, they aren't exactly demanding of the system, so I wouldn't even need t
Re:grammar error...sounds good (Score:1)
And you don't have to rewrite any programs to take advantage of the cells. Linux handles both multi-CPU systems and hyperthreaded CPUs quite well. I don't see why the Cell should be much different - the only difference between the Cell and most modern CPUs are that the Cell's VPUs are faster and more general-purpose.
Re:grammar error...sounds good (Score:3, Interesting)
- right on, I haven't had a console since my SNES. I've already decided to buy a Wii (they had me when they announced the virtual console and the rest is just bonus), but if I can use the PS3 as a desktop computer as well
Of course the PS3 would just be for running
Right (Score:3, Insightful)
Cause you would be running a IBM/Linux desktop NOT the everpresent Wintel setup. I think Sony would like it because MicroSoft would totally not like it.
It is offcourse unlikely that this will have any effect but at least something is being tried.
$500 (Score:2)
I think it could be pretty reasonable as well.
$500 for a PS3 plus $100 for Linux? (Score:1)
You don't need anything the $100 more version has if you're going to run Linux on it.
Unless the Linux environment is available only as part of the $600 bundle, meaning that owners of the $500 system are limited to playing only signed code.
Re:$500 for a PS3 plus $100 for Linux? (Score:2)
So, can you give any reason whatsoever that would be the case? It sounds pretty unlikely and seems like groundless speculation from someone who simply wants to believe the worst of Sony no matter what.
Re:grammar error...sounds good (Score:1)
Re:grammar error...sounds good (Score:2)
The use of period-inside-quotes rather than the more rational system where the quotes surround the quoted material and the period, which ends the sentence which includes the quotation not a sentence inside the quotation, is placed after the closing quotes is a particular stylistic feature of common U.S. style, not a general feature of English as used globally. The "British" or "logical" style is the dominan
Re:grammar error...sounds good (Score:1)
(OT) Quoting in hackish (Score:1)
Yes, but on the internet we use the American English rules
Perhaps you may be correct on sites in the .us domain, but on www.bbc.co.uk they use the Queen's English, and they like it. Tendencies on Slashdot also tend toward "hackish" (jargon) constructions. Eric Raymond offers the example [catb.org] of the difference between "Type 'dd.'" and "Type 'dd.'" in a tutorial about the vi text editor.
so your point is mute.
You mean "moot".
Re:(OT) Quoting in hackish (Score:1)
"Eric Raymond offers the example of the difference between "Type 'dd.'" and "Type 'dd.'" in a tutorial about the vi text editor."
Actually, it would be far more precise to use a code tag or similar device in that instance, or even ignore punctuation altogether. When clarifying something in code, that becomes more important than trivial issues such as correct grammar.
We use American English on the internet because we invented it. And since we invented it, we get to say what kind of English we use.
And I
Re:(OT) Quoting in hackish (Score:1)
it would be far more precise to use a code tag or similar device in that instance
E-mail sent as text/plain doesn't have a code or kbd element. Neither does the subset of HTML accepted by Slashdot. SlashML does have tt, but that's 1. presentational (and deprecated) and 2. not distinguished easily from normal text with many font settings.
or even ignore punctuation altogether.
Grammar national socialists on Slashdot tend to hate punctuation-free posts even more than posts that use hackish or British q
Re:Or you could... (Score:1)
Just buy a computer that comes with a nice high resolution lcd monitor, two extremely versatile input devices (keyboard and mouse), and is upgradeable with thousands of devices from Dell, eMachines, etc for $599
How many simultaneous players can this computer support?
(after the come up with a good compiler for the Cell processor for single thread designed programs)
Unless OpenGL runs in its own thread.
Re:Or you could... (Score:1)
Target Audience? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Target Audience? (Score:1, Flamebait)
Re:Target Audience? (Score:2)
Re:Target Audience? (Score:2)
Why would you pay $600 for a sub par Linux box?
Because it lets you put "PS3 development experience" on your resume.
Re:Target Audience? (Score:1)
A Pentium? Are you serious? The PPE in the Cell is essentially IBM's "G5" PowerPC 970 core, complete with Altivec/VMX. That's no slouch. It'll run "software not specifically written for the Cell" just fine. The SPE's are the really interesting parts though.
And you might want to get the PS/3 as a cheap Cell development platform, it depends on what Sony or IBM do with the Cell. If the only other options are big blade servers from IBM, then $600 for a development machine running Linux would be quite accept
Re:Target Audience? (Score:2, Insightful)
Not really [anandtech.com]. The PPE is much simpler; for example it's an in-order processor, as opposed to the 970's deep OOOE. It does have SMT, but can only dispatch 2 instructions at once. From discussions among people who know much more than me, the suggested rule of thumb was that a PPE at N GHz is roughly equivalent to 2 G4s each at N/2 Hz.
The SPE's are the really interesting parts though.
Right. I think how easy it is to use the
Re:Target Audience? (Score:2)
I'm into Bioinformatics, and I would love to see if I could get each of the individual SPE doing dynamic programming on short sequences. A database searc
Re:Target Audience? (Score:3, Funny)
Idiot.
Go directly to jail, do not pass Go? (Score:1)
So Sony is going to go after the free software audience with a $600 console?
It's a lot cheaper than emigration to a country that doesn't reserve the right to throw modchip users in jail.
Re:Target Audience? (Score:2)
Hardware isn't free.
Re:Target Audience? (Score:2)
But it wants to be.
Two different stances for two different platforms? (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't see how there can be such a big difference in the stance of homebrew applications for their 2 main flagship products. Unless they are going to stop cracking down on these applications for the PSP, or else, this is just some lame attempt to recover from the bashing they are receiving at E3, since they've been bashed about a lot of things, including the crack downs
The real difference (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't see how there can be such a big difference in the stance of homebrew applications for their 2 main flagship products.
The difference is this. On the PSP, if someone creates a game you can play Sony gets no money.
On the PS3, if you crate a game for others to play you can probably sell it on the Sony online service and Sony gets a cut.
I'm pretty sure Sony intends this to be a way to have a lot of small games generated to give theonline service buzz, which benefits everyone. It's a shame they can't see reason on the PSP but at least they came to thier senses with the PS3 and it even makes sense in terms of a profit motive.
Re:The real difference (Score:2, Interesting)
On the PSP, if someone creates a game you can play Sony gets no money. On the PS3, if you crate a game for others to play you can probably sell it on the Sony online service and Sony gets a cut.
So why doesn't Sony introduce e-commerce in PSP firmware 3.0?
Probably in the future (Score:2)
Perhaps Linux for the PS3 will eventually see a cross-compiler that supports the PSP.
You'd think these portable makers would wake up to the huge demand for programmability of these devices and give people an outlet for that...
If they learned anything from PS2 "linux"... (Score:3, Insightful)
Possible reason? (Score:3, Interesting)
Could be a good thing if they actually give access to all of the hardware. But I doubt it, my PSP is still on firmware 1.5.
MrJynxx
MOD PARENT UP (Score:1)
Re:MOD PARENT UP (Score:1)
With no access to any optical drive, how do you load a distro onto the system?
Re:MOD PARENT UP (Score:1)
Re:MOD PARENT UP (Score:1)
you could play movies off of the network or at least copy them over the network to your harddrive.
Which requires one to have a PC within 100BASE-TX range of the PS2, making it little better than just running TV-out on an existing PC.
Re:MOD PARENT UP (Score:1)
Yes, please (Score:1)
Have a little (more) faith with Sony.
But I *do* hope Sony cut down on the price..
Re:Yes, please (Score:1)
Have a little (more) faith with Sony.
One word: "rootkit".
I will have faith in Sony only after I see them die in a fire.
Re:Yes, please (Score:1)
Great, but (Score:2)
Re:Great, but (Score:2)
Re:Great, but (Score:2)
Yes. Adding some funky Perl into the kids Playstations would definitely be fun...
Cue the smoke! (Score:3, Funny)
Don't put them there. Put them in front of that sign--the one that says 599.
games? (Score:2)
One for lan, other for dmz, and this would make a killing router/firewall/vpn-concentrator.
The CPU should be fast enough to handle hundreds of vpn connections, if the promised performance holds true.
I know you can get 1gig gaming router from dlink for less than $100, but that thing doesn't:
* have dmz
* work as vpn server
* run linux
If sony would make the platform open enough, this thing would be WRT54G on s
Re:games? (Score:2)
how about Linux on all Vaios? (Score:1)
Plus it could make them some money in the long run.
Re:how about Linux on all Vaios? (Score:2)
Actually, all they'd have to do is publish the source code to a working Sony Peripheral Interface driver, so the weird buttons and jog shuttles on their laptops will work properly.
And some power management enhancements wouldn't hurt, either.
Schwab
ATA standard hard drives (Score:2, Informative)
gamesindustry.biz: So that hard drive is a standard PC drive?
Phil Harrison: ATA, bog standard, yeah.
gamesindustry.biz: You're not going to be selling Sony drive upgrades?
Phil Harrison: We've got no plan to. We may offer something, but we have no plan to at the moment.
http:/ [gamesindustry.biz]
Modern day equivalent of Amiga or Atari ST (Score:2, Insightful)
Everyone is missing the point. (Score:3, Interesting)
Nintendo Wii has its virtual console where classic Nintendo, Sega, and Turbographix 16 games can be played. Xbox 360 has Xbox Live Arcade where users can download classic games and play them on their console. And what does PS3 have? Homebrew. With homebrew will come access to everything availabe on Nintendo's Virtual Console and the 360's Live Arcade and much more. Documentation is freely available on how to code for the Cell, and it bet it would take all of 6 months to have MAME, Snes9x, Reailty64, FCE Ultra (NES), Gens and everything else up and running on it. Underhanded? Sure is. But you know it will happen. And I for one will be thrilled about it.
Other points:
- I think Sony also realizes that by allowing homebrews on Linux, they'll due themselves a favor by stifling people trying to hack the system. Most system hacks come from hackers who want to run homebrew apps on a system (case and point, the 360 has been hacked, but since the hack can only be used to pirate games, they've not released the source code). So by giving people the ability to run homebrews outright, they'll immediately cut down on hacking and (i think) in dear themselves to a lot of users.
- PS2 linux failed because (as mentioned in these comments) was not a very serious nor technically mature effort by Sony. It was more of a proof of concept than anything. Sony barely talked about, and they certainly never bragged about it. They released it in 2002 and discontinued it 2003. With only 32MB of RAM (not to mention the processing power) there was limited use for the system as much more of a gimmick. Not many of you would've actively been running a poorly optimized version of linux on a slow pc with only 32MB of memory, so I mean, you can't blame Sony for not sticking with it long term as supporting it. The product had limited use. Like a car that could only drive 30 miles at a time.
- Fast forward to 2006, and Sony has publicly stated the PS3's intent to run Linux (and potentialy Mac OS X- . Sony & Apple have talked about teaming up, and with OS X on PS3 they could both stick it nemesis Microsoft). The PS3 has a total of 512MB of RAM, more than enough to run Linux properly, and in additional to that it has a processor that easily twice as fast (probably more) than the fastest PC desktop processor available. IBM already has a Linux kernel compiled and running on the Cell, so this notion of PS3+LINUX is -today- far more reality than fiction. With its built-in hdd (once, maybe still, rumored to ship -with- linux preinstalled) the PS3 could be a fully functional, very useful computer.
- When you look at it (or at least when I do) for $500-$600 you would have seriously powerful PC, Console, and Blu-Ray disc player. I realize that's more than some people want, but it's everything I'd like to see in the system.
PS3: What Sony should do (Score:3, Insightful)
a) Make it a good DVD/Blu-Ray player. Yes, PS2 and Xbox can play back DVD's. But they are not very good at it. Make the PS3 actually a good DVD-player, and consumers have no reason to buy a separate DVD-player.
b) Make it a computer. People still need computers. And while Cell might not be ideal for general-purpose computing, it should still be fast enough. So put Linux in the PS3, make it easy for the consumer to use it. They could use it for email, surfing, word-processing and the like. So the consumer has no need to buy a separate computer that costs several hundred dollars. And, this way Sony can attack Microsoft on it's home-turf. If the PS3-Computer" fails, no big deal. If it succeeds, it hurts MS where it counts (Widnows and Office. Less money to put to their console-business).
If sony does thosetwo things, they could say (truthfully) that Why buy a console that costs 499 dollars, and then buy a computer that costs 699 dollars and DVD-player that costs 109 sollars, when you could jsut buy a PS3 for 699 dollars and be done with it?
PS3 is a vessel for Blu-Ray (Score:2)
Licensing the Next Big Media Format(tm) could provide at least as much revenue as the entire PS3 gaming market would. Trying to establish Blu-Ray as the standard would be a goal worthy enough for Sony to break some former believes in order to get the Blu-Ray format in homes.
Linux and complete (Score:3, Informative)
However Linux on a PS3 is I think something that really was thought out before, unlike the shaking controller deal that I agree looks like it was put together at the last moment.
They did have Linux on the PS2, it just was not very useful. However combined with the online service it makes a lot more sense for people to write thier own cool pro
Re:Another Rip At Nintendo (Score:2)
Now Sony is once again trying to take ideas from Nintendo and incorperate them into their plan.
You do realize that there was a Linux kit for the PS2, released in 2002, that was supposed to be aimed at the homebrew crowd, right? (Yes, I realize it was a flop.) Seems to me that Nintendo is copying an idea that Sony first tried. (For the record, I'm a huge Nintendo fan who is very anxious for the Wii.)
IMHO, the only system that ever really had any sort of decent homebrew scene is the Dreamcast, but that was
Re:Another Rip At Nintendo (Score:2)
Re:Another Rip At Nintendo (Score:1)
Then what explains Sony actively preventing people from trying to create applications for the PSP? After that flop, it appears that Sony had no further interest in anything except official company applications. Now we suddenly hear about their linux stratagy after Nintendo ann
Re:Another Rip At Nintendo (Score:2)
GP2X and Mac mini (Score:2)
All I'm interested in is who is supporting homebrew NOW!
For handhelds, that would be GamePark Holdings. Unfortunately, if you want to develop and sell games for GP2X, you run into the problem that the GP2X doesn't have enough user base to support the economies of scale of a typical game. PDAs don't count anymore because Microsoft and other PDA OS vendors have gone down the lockout chip route, with network operators having the ability to shut off execution of unsigned apps on their subsidized smartphones
Re:Another Rip At Nintendo (Score:2, Interesting)
Without going through a vulture capitalist... (Score:2)
So how does an indie developer develop and sell a first title to earn the money to buy a $2000 devkit for the developer's second title?
Re:Without going through a vulture capitalist... (Score:2)
I want to become a professional developer (Score:1)
Assuming you are a professional developer of some sort
I want to move out of my parents' basement and become a professional game developer. However, I lack the money to move out of Fort Wayne, Indiana, where the video game development industry is pretty much nonexistent.
the $2,000 for an official dev kit (including special hardware, support, and technical specifications) probably costs less than that piece of exercise equipment you wish you used more.
For cardio, I buy a $50 pair of running shoes a
Re:Another Rip At Nintendo (Score:1)