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Apple Dumps Most of Aperture Dev. Team 305

SuperMog2002 writes "An article over at Think Secret is reporting that Apple has fired much of the Aperture development team. The Shake and Motion team was assigned to work on Aperture's image processing pipeline for version 1.1. Apple has also dropped the price of Aperture from $499 to $299, and is offering those who purchased the program at $499 a $200 Apple store coupon." From the article: "Perhaps the greatest hope for Aperture's future is that the application's problems are said to be so extensive that any version 2.0 would require major portions of code to be entirely rewritten. With that in mind, the bell may not yet be tolling for Aperture; an entirely new engineering team could salvage the software and bring it up to Apple's usual standards."
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Apple Dumps Most of Aperture Dev. Team

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  • by pixelated77 ( 472348 ) on Thursday April 27, 2006 @10:03AM (#15211785)
    Well, it looks like the RAW processing was both slow and gave unacceptably poor results, the program was buggy and at least one review called it 'unusable in its current form.'
  • by Whiney Mac Fanboy ( 963289 ) * <whineymacfanboy@gmail.com> on Thursday April 27, 2006 @10:04AM (#15211792) Homepage Journal
    There's a good list of bugs at ars's review of aperture [arstechnica.com]

    The one people complained about most is the thumbnails not matching the actual image (and there's reports of this happenning in iPhoto too).
  • by pixelated77 ( 472348 ) on Thursday April 27, 2006 @10:06AM (#15211804)
    Check out Ars Technica's Aperture 1.0 reviwe:
    http://arstechnica.com/reviews/apps/aperture.ars [arstechnica.com]
  • Re:Standards? (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 27, 2006 @10:14AM (#15211882)
    I have not had any problems with iTunes in the past 2 years or so of using it. What exactly is crap about it?
  • by BenEnglishAtHome ( 449670 ) * on Thursday April 27, 2006 @10:15AM (#15211887)
    Not an Aperture user, but I was struck by the review in Popular Photography that made some apologies for the horsepower needed to run it. Yes, imaging is tough, but the program was apparently too slow to test unless it was installed on the absolutely most-tricked-out, highly-upgraded Power Mac G5 you can lay your hands on. Usually, the creampuff reviews from such magazines will give this sort of thing only the barest mention. The fact that the review actually talked about it for a few sentences told me that the program had problems.

    I really hate having to read between the lines of reviews from mainstream outfits. That's why I love my online sources.
  • by rhesuspieces00 ( 804354 ) on Thursday April 27, 2006 @10:16AM (#15211893) Homepage
    No, its for batch processing large numbers of RAW pictures. There is a freee plugin for Photoshop to do that same sort of thing, but you cant compare the two in terms of feature sets. One is hack to add some basic RAW processing features to Photoshop. With some issues worked out, Aperture would be a god-send to photographers that work with RAW format pics. Adobe has since released a beta of a piece of software to compete with aperture, but i forget its name.
  • Re:Standards? (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 27, 2006 @10:18AM (#15211915)
    I wouldn't be so quick to blame the developers of Apple's Windows applications. Remember, they're basically stuck working with the existing Windows APIs (Win32, MFC), and PowerPlant. Those APIs are inferior, feature-wise and functionality-wise, to the Cocoa framework they can use under Mac OS X. It's no wonder their Windows offerings are often trumped by their Mac OS X offerings: they have a far superior framework to build off of on Mac OS X.

    Notice that the reverse is also true. Microsoft's products for OS X are often far better than the Windows equivalents. This held true for Internet Explorer, and even today with their Office port. While .NET may (or may not) change this, the fact remains that the existing Windows APIs and frameworks pale in comparison to Cocoa.

  • by GroinWeasel ( 970787 ) on Thursday April 27, 2006 @10:28AM (#15211987)
    lightroom: http://labs.macromedia.com/technologies/lightroom/ [macromedia.com]

    and the beta is better than the aperture release version

    no windows beta at this point, sorry
  • by Alkonaut ( 604183 ) on Thursday April 27, 2006 @10:29AM (#15211992)
    Adobe/Macromedia does have a direct competitor, It's called Lightroom and is also in beta. http://labs.macromedia.com/technologies/lightroom/ [macromedia.com]
  • by stanwirth ( 621074 ) on Thursday April 27, 2006 @10:40AM (#15212103)

    Bibble [bibblelabs.com] is better, and was started by one guy in his garage that wanted some decent SW for the raw files coming off of his digital camera. At least four developers have touched it over the years...i.e. small, smart and agile development team. I think they're pretty cool. The principal developer/entrepreneur Eric Hyman gladly does the support, and he's a very nice guy besides. The SW is QT based and they do extensive testing on Mac (their professional customer base), Linux (where they get many helpful comments) and Windows. They have a freeware version. The whole series of changes you make to an image are stored as an .XML file, which lets you edit it and script a systematic image-processing stream to apply to whole shoots once you pointy-clicky on a representative image to see what works. Reputed to have the best white-balance algorithm in the business. They're usually the first to decode a new obfuscated raw file format for new cameras, too.

  • aperture performance (Score:2, Informative)

    by derniers ( 792431 ) on Thursday April 27, 2006 @10:44AM (#15212137)
    Aperture pegs both processors on an MBP but then so does Lightroom.... as to bugs there are about 13,000 posts on the Apple discussion site http://discussions.apple.com/index.jspa [apple.com] and there are probably about the same number in the Lightroom forums.... while I like most Apple apps I've been using Lightroom (so far) but it has its own "features".... both apps still seem like betas to me, both Apple and Adobe are going with interfaces unlike those in their other apps and each approach has some pluses and minuses.......... with millions of dslrs out there and more being bought every day there is a real market for this type of app and $299 is a lot less than the price of a lens (at least I get edu prices on apps if not lenses)
  • Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday April 27, 2006 @10:51AM (#15212201)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by Kadin2048 ( 468275 ) <.ten.yxox. .ta. .nidak.todhsals.> on Thursday April 27, 2006 @10:54AM (#15212225) Homepage Journal
    I think before you put TOO much weight on the Ars review, you should take into consideration what jcr said above [slashdot.org], because I think it's an important point.

    Saying that Aperture's output isn't as pretty as Photoshop's is like complaining that your photos look shittier on slides than on prints, without taking into consideration that with the slide you're looking at your own (and the camera's) handiwork and nothing else, while with the print you're looking at something that's been optimized by someone else (the printer) to look good.

    The speed problems are unacceptable though. I just thought the Aperture/Photoshop comparison wasn't a great one; although it's odd to say it, Photoshop has become a "mid grade" application, I think Aperture was going for an even 'more-pro' crowd than the average Photoshop user.

    I think in retrospect Apple is realizing maybe that market is smaller than they originally thought.
  • I was on the team... (Score:4, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 27, 2006 @10:54AM (#15212227)
    Posting anonymously for obvious reasons.

    Most of the team was not fired, they simply found new positions in Apple once 1.0 was completed because the project management was too shoddy. For instance I am now back working on Mac OS X. Most of the management however has been fired.

    Aperture is not being abandoned but is just being reorganised.

    Many of the problems in Aperture were caused, not fixed, by the Shake and Motion teams contributions. Originally the rendering pipeline, based on Core Image, was working fine but it was decided to speed it up so over a period of 4 months it was rewritten. It has never worked correctly since then.
  • by glesga_kiss ( 596639 ) on Thursday April 27, 2006 @11:10AM (#15212391)
    many other have found that Quicktime is the only simple videoplayer software that can bring a beefy gaming rig to its knees trying to play a 30 second low-res clip with no apparent explaination.

    I'm one of them. My laptop can play divx full screen no problems, but if you try to view quicktime at even 2x (which should be an easy scale), it just falls apart. Struggles to play 1x at times as well.

    Now a happy user of QuickTime Alternative [free-codecs.com]

  • by NutscrapeSucks ( 446616 ) on Thursday April 27, 2006 @11:18AM (#15212471)
    The flamefest at Ars Technica about that was actually quite informative. RAW really is a raw dump of Camera sensors and looks like nothing without being "prettyed-up". So's apparently it is incorrect to say that Apple wasn't manipulating the RAW, they just weren't doing it to the same level of other products.
  • Re:Standards? (Score:4, Informative)

    by suv4x4 ( 956391 ) on Thursday April 27, 2006 @11:18AM (#15212475)
    "I wouldn't be so quick to blame the developers of Apple's Windows applications. Remember, they're basically stuck working with the existing Windows APIs (Win32, MFC), and PowerPlant."

    Good, this explains how Windows Media Player 10 is a lot faster, lighter and stable than Quick Time on Windows... Oh wait it doesn't.

    Your argument was totally off. I'm primarily a Windows user. I don't complain that all Windows apps are inferior, I complain specifically of the QT/iTunes ports being inferior compared to other apps with their functionality.
  • by kuwan ( 443684 ) on Thursday April 27, 2006 @11:23AM (#15212518) Homepage
    Actually, when using Aperture the Graphics card is the most important part of your machine. You don't need the fastest G5 with 4 or 8 GB of memory (though it always helps), what you need is a very fast Graphics card. This has been very hard for many people to understand because traditional programs like Photoshop rely almost solely on the CPU for their speed. Aperture is an entirely different program because it relies very heavily on the GPU for its speed.

    I'd guess that the low end G5 (Dual-core 2.0 GHz) with an NVIDIA 7800 GT would probably outperform a Quad 2.5 GHz G5 with the stock NVIDIA 6600 graphics card. Not to say that the NVIDIA 6600 performs badly in Aperture, it doesn't, but the 7800 should perform much better, even in a slower machine. Also, the ATI Radeon 9600 Pro which was the default GPU in many of the earlier G5s doesn't perform very well in Aperture. For people with this card you don't need a new/better/faster G5 so much as you just need a better GPU.

    When you do have a good graphics card Aperture performs very, very well.
  • by luketheduke ( 945392 ) on Thursday April 27, 2006 @12:04PM (#15212956)
    I have a studio, I shoot professionally every day. I run aperture on a Quad G5 with 8gigs of RAM it has been the best peice of image management software to date. The workflow is increadable. Yes the raw quality isn't as good as adobe's Camera Raw but adobe's wasn't as great in its first version either. The quality is 95% there. Yes there were some bugs and with any new software a learning curve (which scares most people) but honestly everything runs fine for me and it has cut my post production time and image management time 75% Also when i bring clients in i can whip photos around on two apple Cinema Displays with ease make selects in 15min normally, and there's the wow factor of images flying around (clients like blinking lights and razzle dazzle). What apple "Did" with their team is what apple does. Makes the best software availible bar none. This isn't for this article but lets face it they make the best desktop system bar none. They don't settle for 95% they settle for 110% (10% being the extra things they invented that you need but didn't know you needed untill they showed them to you). I personally think fireing it had a lot to do with the level of hardware needed to run it lets be honest how many times have you programed something and it chokes on your parents 5 yo comp but runs perfectly on yours. At anyrate if you buy a new $5k~20k camera every 2~3 years you can pony up for a Quad G5 to get the job done.
  • by PsychicX ( 866028 ) on Thursday April 27, 2006 @12:09PM (#15212995)
    The parent is of course comic, but readers going down the replies will find two posts (at least one from an Apple employee) indicating that none of the engineering team was fired. The people who were fired were middle management, and let's face it, nobody likes the managers anyway. They're there because they need to be, however incompetent and useless. And the same applies to MS. They could stand to lose some of management too.
  • Excessive (Score:4, Informative)

    by smackthud ( 116446 ) on Thursday April 27, 2006 @12:17PM (#15213085)
    I use Aperture daily, along with photoshop and the other programs you'd expect a professional photographer to use heavily. Since the release of the 1.1 update several weeks ago, I can honestly say that Aperture is one of the nicer apps I use on a regular basis. But prior to that, Aperture was already saving me more time (read: $$) than any other tool I have.

    Aperture is designed to let me import hundreds of photos from a shoot, in RAW, jpeg, whatever, QUICKLY add metadata, rate, sort, color correct for white balance, exposure etc.. This gets me to the point where I can now proof the images to my clients. The photos haven't been retouched, they are just in the form that lets a client see my skill as a photographer, and what images they have to choose from.

    No matter who the client is, commercial, fashion, wedding, headshot... the faster I can let them see the proofs the better. From the 500 images in an average session... the client will only choose a few, which are then retouched in photoshop. I think this is what is hard for non-photographers to grasp; the sheer number of images NOT used. The workflow is designed to select only a few choice images, and then begin your post production processing of those selected images.

    In many cases, especially with studio sessions, nothing really needs retouching after the image has been "tuned" in Aperture. Many times I'm sending the image versions directly from aperture to my lab printer. It is wonderful to use the Soft Proofing built-in to Aperture. It works great.

    An important, but often overlooked core feature of Aperture is its top notch asset management system with versioning. Sure Subversion and CVS do version management better, but many of my colleagues have trouble with the concepts behind webmail, so Apertures simplicity in this area is admirable. I expect many new features will be added to the versioning and Vault system (like multiple library support), but much of what it does already is a major time saver. There are certainly alternatives, like lightroom, and bibble, which are each excellent in their own ways, but Aperture is more complete, and meets my needs better for now. Your mileage mat vary.

    Lastly, I'm running Aperture on a G4 Powerbook. It runs fine. My RAW files are between 15Mb and 20Mb in size, and Aperture handles the hundreds of images per session fine. Could it be faster? Sure, what couldn't. But its not the nightmare that some report.
  • Re:Politely? (Score:3, Informative)

    by glesga_kiss ( 596639 ) on Thursday April 27, 2006 @12:21PM (#15213131)
    Does asking to be modded down and then not being modded down mean your point is invalid then?

    No. The reverse psychology works in this case and counteracts the effect. :-) The moderation system is real easy to manipulate, if one so desires. Saying "go on, mod me down" usually takes you up a level or two.

    Mind you, having posted this, all bets are off now.

  • by xant ( 99438 ) on Thursday April 27, 2006 @01:30PM (#15213940) Homepage
    1. Doesn't remember where I was in the playlist when I shut it down. That's fine if you always randomize, but I have hundreds of tracks in my collection and most of them are meant to be played in sequence (ambient, classical, etc.).
    2. Ogg support sucks. I had to install a 3rd-party plugin, and there's noticable pauses at the beginnings of ogg tracks.
    3. Has a system tray icon, but still appears in the taskbar.
    4. Doesn't use global HID-device keys. For example, winamp pauses when i hit the pause key, no matter what application is in the foreground. iTunes doesn't.
    5. Slow startup. Can be up to a minute. I found forum posts that suggested that this could be "worked around" by not having the cd burner device start up. Come on.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 27, 2006 @02:15PM (#15214477)
    To take these in order:
    • Like every other "Pro" application, Apple seems to throw the entire Mac UI out the window. All the UI elements get tiny, and start behaving strangely. Dialog boxes you can't escape out of look like Windoids- and in one case, I hit "delete" while a text field wasn't selected in the Windoid, and Aperture trapped the delete in the main window instead, and deleted a photo! What the?

      The look-and-feel *is* a Mac UI. It's the ProKit UI that tries to maximise the space available, because, well, you've got a limited screen space and a lot of media to show. Every Pro-App uses this look and feel.
    • The backup system sucks- you can't archive anything conveniently (you have to export projects by hand, remember where you put them, etc). That flies in the face of how almost every pro photographer works. Aperture instead only allows you to basically rsync the Aperture folder (oops, I mean, Library) to another disk, aka "Vault", and if you delete a "master", on the next sync, it deletes it from the "Vault" as well. There is no way to reconcile specific differences from Vaults; it's an all-or-nothing system to make it as fast+easy to implement as possible.

      The 'fast+easy' is supposition on your part, and the system is IMHO anyway not meant to be a backup, it's meant to be snapshot-in-time of what you wanted to save. If you want to back stuff up in a more-permanent way, there is always the (free download [mac.com]) Apple Backup application.
    • Aperture can wedge the system so badly during an import that clicking on a menu in the Finder (nothing else open), the system takes 10+ seconds to respond. On a Macbook with 1GB of ram.

      Well, yes, I can see that happening pretty easily. With only 1G of RAM and doing RAW conversion to an in-memory form (which is completely uncompressed), I could easily see it taking more than 1G, therefore swapping out other programs to disk, and incurring a wait as they are swapped back in when you want to do something. I can't see any way around that for the application...
    • You create a project. You have 700 photos. You've already sorted them, or they are different days, etc. Anyway- you want to logically seperate them out and only have ONE master in ONE folder. Nope, sorry, can't do that- masters reside in the Project all together. If you import a folder with 6 subfolders, the main folder is created as a folder, and the subfolders are created as "albums". The wonderful joy with albums is that a "version" can be in multiple albums.

      Are you trying to say that you want 700 folders ? If you want to separate masters, create a 'smart album' (which is an album consisting of the results of a search) and specify the search to limit the album to the image you want. Admittedly this will get tedious for 700 items, but I can't really see the advantage of 700 separate folders anyway.
      Perhaps an Applescript could be written for your situation, so Aperture could be told to create smart-searches based on a criteria (eg: pathname-to-original-directory) for all distinct instances of that criteria. That oughtn't be too hard - then you just get one project and your 700 smart-folders inside.
    • You can't use != in any of the smart folder/album/whatevers. Let's say I want to find all images in my project that I haven't tagged with "adjusted" (more on why this is necessary below); I can't.

      Agreed. This is a pain.
    • Aperture lets you assign plenty of metadata, but can't make smart folders based on steps in a workflow. I import an image, rank it, then adjust it, fix rotation, crop, etc. I want to be able to set up smart folders based on those steps to show me only what is left to do in any particular category. Nope! I have to create custom metadata buttons/tags to do it.

      To be fair, that would be rather hard unless it was 'have applied *any* rotation/crop/etc.', and I'm not sure how useful that
  • Re:Standards? (Score:2, Informative)

    by nugneant ( 553683 ) on Thursday April 27, 2006 @02:51PM (#15214829) Journal
    Funny how winAMP [winamp.com] and foobar2000 [foobar2000.org] manage to run faster than iTunes.

    Funny also how VLC [videolan.org] and even WinAMP [winamp.com] manage to not be complete shite at playing videos (and can even do fullscreen omg).

    One might conclude that, in fact, Apple just can't handle coding in Windows, or something equally preposterous - because we all know that, unlike M$, Apple's never sued bloggers or screwed over customers or released broken hardware or... oh... wait...

    I dared question the illusion that Apple <3's us all, so this is probably going to be modded flamebait - but whatever.

    MY MOM KNOWS I'M INSIGHTFUL AND INFORMATIVE LIKE ALL THE OTHER BOYS.
  • by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) * on Thursday April 27, 2006 @02:53PM (#15214847)
    Like every other "Pro" application, Apple seems to throw the entire Mac UI out the window. All the UI elements get tiny, and start behaving strangely. Dialog boxes you can't escape out of look like Windoids- and in one case, I hit "delete" while a text field wasn't selected in the Windoid, and Aperture trapped the delete in the main window instead, and deleted a photo! What the?

    The reason non-modal dialogues are used heavily in Pro apps is because they are more flexible, and offer a much faster workflow rather than having to cancel dialogues, do something, and re-open the same dialogue. Also Aperture makes use of a number of floating windows (HUD's) to maximize use of screen space since they can be quickly brought up or dispelled.

    The Apple pro interface has been refined over some time in other apps like Final Cut, it too comes from a base of practical use just like the Apple Guidelines but is intended for a more experienced user with more complex needs.

    The backup system sucks- you can't archive anything conveniently (you have to export projects by hand, remember where you put them, etc). That flies in the face of how almost every pro photographer works. Aperture instead only allows you to basically rsync the Aperture folder (oops, I mean, Library) to another disk, aka "Vault", and if you delete a "master", on the next sync, it deletes it from the "Vault" as well. There is no way to reconcile specific differences from Vaults; it's an all-or-nothing system to make it as fast+easy to implement as possible.

    It's meant to point out to users who might not be backing up as often as they should the importance of backup by making it a first-class citizen. And yes it removes something from the vault if you've removed it from the library, why wouldn't it? It does store everything removed in a "deleted" folder on the Vault drive in case you made a mistake. Also, As the Aperture instructions point out you are supposed to be making multiple Vault copies and keeping some offsite.

    I don't think it's fair to slap Aperture for trying to promote good backup practices when few other apps do anything at all to even help you with backups.

    You create a project. You have 700 photos. You've already sorted them, or they are different days, etc. Anyway- you want to logically seperate them out and only have ONE master in ONE folder. Nope, sorry, can't do that- masters reside in the Project all together. If you import a folder with 6 subfolders, the main folder is created as a folder, and the subfolders are created as "albums". The wonderful joy with albums is that a "version" can be in multiple albums.

    What does it matter if all the pictures are in a project, as you noted you want to logically seperate them - which you can do with albums.

    The main idea is to have folder structures with projects at the leaf nodes. If you're putting everything in one project you're using the product in a way it was not meant to be used.

    What's wrong with having versions in multiple albums? I WANT versions to be able to be in multiple albums. You can of course just have it in one if you like. I fail to see why you want to limit flexibility of the product in this way.

    You can't use != in any of the smart folder/album/whatevers. Let's say I want to find all images in my project that I haven't tagged with "adjusted" (more on why this is necessary below); I can't.

    IPTC keyword search, "does not contain".

    Aperture lets you assign plenty of metadata, but can't make smart folders based on steps in a workflow. I import an image, rank it, then adjust it, fix rotation, crop, etc. I want to be able to set up smart folders based on those steps to show me only what is left to do in any particular category. Nope! I have to create custom metadata buttons/tags to do it.

    That would be a good idea, what other applications today help you in that regard?

    Stack multiple adjustments, and Aperture turns into a total pig loading the photo. Some ad
  • Re: Not really fair (Score:3, Informative)

    by HuguesT ( 84078 ) on Thursday April 27, 2006 @05:38PM (#15216173)
    Personally I think that your reply makes perfect sense, and I'll add that if the camera manufacturers were so sure of themselves they would not think there would be any point in producing RAW files out of their cameras (TIFF would be adequate).

    On the contrary, new methods and algorithms to produce better output out of the Bayer-like mosaic of most sensors are published if not every week at least at each new major Image Processing conference. The whole point of RAW is to allow future such algorithms to be used on older images.
  • by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) * on Thursday April 27, 2006 @06:47PM (#15216668)
    Obviously with Lightroom out already in beta, Apple is now in a competition that they probably won't win because of the huge advantages Adobe has in leveraging Photoshop and cross-platform flow.

    All that Lightroom can really borrow though is the conversion engine (ACR) whcih they already have - as far as the other features Aperture has there's really not much Lightroom can borrow from Photoshop, because it's a fundamnetally different kind of applciation not built for working on pixels.

    I would say Lightroom is at least a year behind having something that comes close to being as useful, just based on progress in the betas so far. And some things they have no plans to add at all right now, like the book designer in Aperture.

    Don't forget also that Lightroom has to worry about dual platform support which always slows you down.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 28, 2006 @04:01AM (#15219237)
    QuickTime on OS X works well as a multimedia architecture, and lots and lots of software uses it for handling video, audio or images. The QuickTime Player blows, and always has ever since Apple introduced that "Pro" bullshit and mauled the UI.

    The old MoviePlayer 2.5 (the player that came with QuickTime 2.5) was a great player and it even had some pretty good and intuitive editing functions, and I kept using it even with QuickTime 4, ditching the dumbed-down QuickTime Player. The player just provides the interface, anyway: the meat of the code is in the QT libraries.

    On OS X, you can use alternative QT players such as Cellulo (again, these are just applications that provide a different interface to the QT architecture), and avoid the stupid limitations of QuickTime Player (the "Pro" limitations are implemented by the player: the libraries are identical in the free version, so if you just use a third-party application based on them, you can get access to the full playback/conversion/editing features without paying for Pro).

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