Google Staff MD on Carpal Tunnel & RSI 200
bariswheel writes "Every older and some younger Slashdotters have been subject to that tingling feeling in your wrist after countless hours of hacking, cracking, or playing CS. This Google Blog, posted by the Staff MD addresses this serious symptom that could potentially lead to "compression of the nerve which can cause numbness or tingling and eventually weakness if the nerve is damaged severely." Didn't think hard work would hurt anybody right?"
Livelihood (Score:5, Interesting)
I've always been concerned about the state of my wrists especially since they're so vital to my livelihood. But what I've found is that the only time I've experienced fatigue or pain in them is when I haven't used them to intensively work out. I now visit the gym twice a week and I believe that doing proper exercises [myfit.ca] builds strength and endurance in them to overcome what effects poor posture at work might have on them.
I'm not in any way a doctor but it's been my experience that when I was in college with no time to work out (and no job to force me to use them), I experienced discomfort from programming 12+ hours at the end of semesters. Now, I never even notice a 12+ crunch between work and school.
I also have a pair of hand grips [ballyfitness.com] at both my office and home where if I'm watching television or waiting for a compile to complete, I'll put in a few repetitions. I just see this as "flossing your teeth" for programmers. It's not something you have to do but you should do it because your hands really are worth a lot to you.
I don't take this issue lightly after I saw my friend go through it at the young age of 22. He had to wear a sort of headband thing [spectronicsinoz.com] with a reflective dot on it to move his mouse around on his machine. Unbelievably, he even became quite good at play Star Wars Galaxies online with it on.
Re:Livelihood (Score:3, Funny)
It's a shame I can't think of a sophomoric joke that is clever enough to not be trite.
Old mechanical typewriters: was this a problem? (Score:1)
Re:Old mechanical typewriters: was this a problem? (Score:1)
Re:Old mechanical typewriters: was this a problem? (Score:2)
Re:Old mechanical typewriters: was this a problem? (Score:2)
The micro-break, which takes as long as you'd take to assess exactly where to end the line when the carriage bell rings, then to push the carriage return lever on the typewriter.
Do one micro-break about every 60 characters or so.
The mini-break, which takes about as long as you'd require to assess exactly where to end your page, roll up the platen to remove the paper and carbons, reach and turn to place each sheet in its stack
Re:Livelihood (Score:3, Funny)
Except my girlfriend. I have enormous claws now :D
Re:Livelihood (Score:2, Funny)
I just tried this and managed to knock over a drink, drop the phone, crack my monitor stand and lose my mouse ball down the back of the radiator.
Mental note: Purchase heavier desk.
Re:Livelihood (Score:5, Funny)
Re:So in an 8 hour day that's 12 to 16 times a day (Score:2)
Re:Livelihood (Score:2)
Re:Livelihood (Score:2)
Carpal tunnel i
Re:Livelihood (Score:2)
Typing technique is one of the most overlooked factors. Most people aren't typists (they know how to press keys) and didn't take typing classes to learn to type well (and properly). There are a lot who are proud they are self-taught (and vocal about it) - like the movie traditional, two-finger newspaper re
Re:Livelihood (Score:2, Informative)
Martial Arts (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Livelihood (Score:2)
This structural role is often negated in skinny people who lack enough lean mass, as well as people with an excessive body fat ratio.
So bulk up, people, or you'll be at an increased risk of sprains, back pains, etc.
Re:Livelihood (Score:2)
I also recommend buying a wrist brace, even if you don't have RSI. It helps to keep your wrist straight - not keeping it straight is what can inflamate the nerve, AFAIK.
Re:Livelihood (Score:2)
Re:Livelihood (Score:2)
Re:Livelihood (Score:2)
Re:Livelihood (Score:2)
What I do (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:What I do (Score:2)
Configuring the mouse so the buttons are reversed made learning it a matter of minutes, since it's mirror-motion from what I already knew.
That's bought me another decade - so far. At this point (a few years short of 60 in age) my knuckles, wrist bones, and one elbow tendon hurt just a tad (probably from the st
RSI (Score:2, Informative)
Re:RSI (Score:2)
Used to have that problem (Score:5, Insightful)
I have a couple of extra, just in case this one croaks. I haven't noticed the natural keyboard in stores lately.
Re:Used to have that problem (Score:2)
It might be a good rest/change of position tool for people whose mouse wrists are hurting, and a basic Wacom Graphire doesn't cost the earth either.
Beware though, if you're a b3ta.com (b3ta wikip. page) [wikipedia.org] user, you'll be coerced into drawing a CDC in no time.
Re:Used to have that problem (Score:2)
The Naturals wear out after a while though. The keys start to get sticky (especially the wide keys like shift). I have been t
MS Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 (Score:2, Interesting)
--bdj
Re:Used to have that problem (Score:2)
Re:Used to have that problem (Score:2)
As for them still being in business, as I understand it, they were bought up by some larger company for the technology, and that's why they're no longer around.
other input methods (Score:1)
Exoticism? (Score:1, Offtopic)
Re:Exoticism? (Score:2)
Re:Exoticism? (Score:2)
It's all about posture. (Score:5, Insightful)
So I bought a new chair that sat higher with higher armrests, and haven't had even a whisper of a problem since. I'm convinced the problem is largely one of ergonomics and posture.
--Ryvar
Re:It's all about posture. (Score:2)
It was always in the right hand for me.
I switched to using my left hand for the mouse at work, and my right hand at home, and the problems completely went away.
Well, unless I do a long session at work or home.
Then, I just take a bit of a break or do some wrist exercises. I blame mice, not keyboards.
Although, once I had the problems in times past, it did hurt to use the keyboard (or pretty much anything else).
Re:It's all about posture. (Score:2)
Re:It's all about posture. (Score:2)
After reading around, I decided to change the setup of my desk and chair, and now have my arms comfortably at 90 degrees, instead of having my arms rest against the edge of the desk.
I also bought a wireless [amazon.com]
notebook mouse, the only Microsoft product I've ever bought. Perfect for my small hands and lets me place the mouse where my arms are. Previously, I made the
Posting is Hard Work (Score:2)
Each
Hand Problems (Score:5, Informative)
What evidence there is points to the mouse as the source of computer-related hand problems, not the keyboard. I remember hearing a lot about people getting computer-related hand problems in the early 90's, around the time Windows 3.1 came out and the mouse became mainstream.
I tend to have hand trouble in the spring when I start riding my bike, and that demands a hand position different from anything I do all winter.
I've had times when my tendonitis was so bad that I thought I'd have to change careers, but I found that push-ups were an effective treatment for me. Push-ups are great because they are a functional exercise that works the whole upper body -- they build up the big muscles in your chest as well as the little muscles in your wrist. I love lifting weights, but you can do push-ups at home without any equipment or gym memberships.
Note that every motion you do involves a complete 'chain' that leads back to your center of gravity -- if you push a key on a computer, it's only an ounce or two of force, but it's ultimately backed up by your whole mass. Your big muscles help your little muscles do their work and vice versa...
Possible solution (Score:1, Redundant)
Re:Possible solution (Score:2, Funny)
You forgot (Score:3, Funny)
you forgot to add wacking after all this is
How I cured my "RSI" (Score:1, Interesting)
http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/handout.doc [harvard.edu]
or Google view as HTML [72.14.203.104]
I now firmly believe that "RSI" is caused by psychological reasons (though it does exhibit actual physical symptoms). I know that is hard to grasp, and long-time sufferers will disagree with me, but read the document I linked to and some of Dr. John E. Sarno's writings if you are interested.
Me too. (Score:2)
I used to sleep with wrist braces every night and try to cut down computer time which is difficult considering I'm a computer programmer for a living. Now I only think about CPS when it's brought up on Slashdot.
The parent is a fairly accurate description. You can google TMS and Sarno to find additional information or just rent his book from the local library.
Sorry, lots of typing != CTS (Score:4, Interesting)
People that experience CTS because of typing seriously need to figure out what they are doing wrong, and they ARE doing something wrong.
People I know that have CTS tend to pound on the keyboard, they put so much tension and force in order to hit the keys with their fingers, there is no need to pound on the keyboard. Light quick presses of your fingers is enough to register the key press. If your keyboard forces you to pound on the keys, get a new keyboard. The moment even ONE of my keys because sticky or requires more force to press then normal, I toss it and get a new keyboard, period.
People that I know who also have CTS tend to try and type as quickly as possible. Their fingers are a flurry of activity for 2 - 5 minutes, and then they have to stop and rub their fingers and wrists because they are sore. I watch them tense up and basically spas out on the keyboard in short intervals. You will find greater productivity and no pain if you learn to type slower, aiming for long sessions of moderate speed typing rather then spazzing out on the keyboard for short stints.
Put it this way. You move your fingers and wrists in thousands of directions thousands of times a day in with normal activity. Your fingers, hands, and wrists are designed to handle it. Where you get problems is when you strain your tendons and force movement while in a strained position. This is where repetitive STRAIN syndrome occurs.
By relaxing your fingers, typing with a lighter touch, and slowing your typing speed, you can type for hours, days, weeks and years without pain or any CTS symptoms.
It work, believe me. With the MS natural keyboard and keeping the above statement in mind, I don't have sore wrists at the end of the day.
The bottom line is, your company doesn't force you to use the equipment you use. If they won't buy you a natural or other ergonomic keyboard, or a force you to use a keyboard that has sticky or hard to press keys, then buy your own keyboard. Take steps to ensure your work environment is safe. If you don't like your chair, or your desk, get it replaced. Remind any employer that a few hundred dollars to improve the ergonomics of your workstation, or even a few thousand to improve everyone in the office pales in comparison to the millions they will be sued for for not providing a safe working environment that causes you pain or forces you to have to stop working. NO employer should refuse to let you bring in your own keyboard, mouse, even chair, if they do, find other employment.
I tire of hearing about people getting CTS. They are simply doing it all wrong, but blaming everything else but themselves. If you are using a straight rectangular keyboard that isn't at the proper height, pounding on it with your fingers and strained wrists, and feel you need to type 100 wpm in order to be productive, then its your own damn fault!
Re:Sorry, lots of typing != CTS (Score:2)
Re:Sorry, lots of typing != CTS (Score:2)
I think most of the problem stems from poor ergonomics at the workstation, i.e. bad keyboard height, improper mouse positioning, etc. 'Course my favorite coding position is with my feet propped up on my desk and the keyboard on my lap or
Re:Sorry, lots of typing != CTS (Score:2)
Re:Sorry, lots of typing != CTS (Score:2)
Sorry, but no. Even that doesn't cause CTS. [harvard.edu] (summary if you don't want to pay [insurancejournal.com]) Occurances, by percentage, of CTS in computer users is not elevated. Most computer users who have signifigant pain which they call CTS is really either something else, or caused by some other activity. Repet
Roots of the problem (Score:2, Interesting)
As a long-time RSI sufferer, it is also worth mentioning that even though the symptoms may appear in your wrist/hands, the actual problem could be in your
Blinking (Score:2)
Shift your gaze from the computer screen to the distance. And don't forget to blink!
Does this really happen to people? I think (and really hope) that it never happens for me not to be blinking! Has any of you ever noticed that you haven't blinked for a long time?
Re:Blinking (Score:2)
I think I do that. (Score:2, Funny)
Later today I will attempt to walk _and_ chew gum.
I'll take the appropriate precautions...
Re:Blinking (Score:2)
Turns out, I hadn't been blinking for most of the conversation. It's something I have to remember to do
Re:Blinking (Score:2)
I find that my blinking is normal, except when I'm playing an FPS. I'd go 5-10 minutes playing BF1942 without blinking, trying to spot the incoming enemy, and my eyes would dry out and start to hurt.
Warcraft, among other games, doesn't seem to cause this problem, though oddly, Tetris does. Might be the speed of the action - mayb
People blink less in front of computers (Score:2, Interesting)
To do some wild speculation, I would guess that this is caused by the fact that we tend to look in a constant direction at all times. Part of how nature has evolved is that whenever you move your eyes from one object to another, you blink. (Google "saccade" and "blink" for more info - I can't quickly find anyth
"Alternate keyboards and mice periodically." (Score:2)
Or, alternatively, can you think of any really funny misinterpretations?
Re:"Alternate keyboards and mice periodically." (Score:2)
Maybe they mean getting a different keyboard, but unless it is quite difference, I don't see what difference it would make.
Maybe at google they have a range of keyboards that you can swap over every few days, but not here.
Meh... I have freaky wrists (Score:2)
Re:Meh... I have freaky wrists (Score:2)
Keyboard layout matters (Score:2)
I used to go home from work with a feeling of numbness on the backs of my hands. This scared me enough to try the Dvorak layout. It worked for me; I'm not really any faster than I was with QWERTY, but I'm *way* more comfortable. I tried to design an even better keyboard layout via evolutionary algorithms, but couldn't; Dvorak got it right, at least for my pair of hands.
Give it a try; you'll thank me later. It's free, too.
Re:Keyboard layout matters (Score:2)
That worked for me (Score:2)
First thing, I stopped supporting my wrist on the edge of the desk, that's REALLY bad and many do that (my brother also does it despite me constantly nagging him about it). Instead I dumped my old CRT and got a TFT, which allowed m
Re:That worked for me (Score:2)
Good idea. If you can, also center your body on the G and H keys so that you're centered on the primary
From TFA (Score:3, Funny)
Even more important: don't forget to breath! It sounds ridiculous but I caught myself repeatedly forgetting to breath while working on a computer...
I have tendonitis (Score:3, Informative)
RSI's are real and frequent and can be very traumatic. Please don't let it happen to you!
wrists-to-sore-to-make-sarcastic-quip dept (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm serious.
Re:wrists-to-sore-to-make-sarcastic-quip dept (Score:2)
Geoff
Didn't think hard work would hurt anybody right? (Score:2)
RSI tip for hardware techs - screwdrivers (Score:2)
If your job requires the constant use of screwdrivers, you know how bad this can be on your wrists. The ergo-style handles might improve your grip, but they don't address the problems of bad wrist geometry and body position that are endemic to their use. But the problem isn't really the handle, it's the length of the shank..
Go to the tool store, and buy a few of the 'jobber length' screwdrivers - for starters, a #1 & #2 phillips will be fine; they are most commonly used. These drivers have shanks that
Weird thing happened to my shoulder (Score:2)
I got home from the trip and starting processing photos and video, and within 4 hours my shoulder was absolutely killing me.
I eventually realised that
Glucosamine (Score:2, Informative)
Not only does it seem to alleviate that problem as advertised, I also feel much better in my wrists!
The last years I have felt aches in my wrists that seem much similar to the descriptions of RSI I have read. My motorbike put a lot of stress on the wrists, and I type away on computers all days long.
Glucosamine is supposed to be one building block of which the body makes cartilege and joint liquid from, and I suppose it might also be
Are some people just immune to this? (Score:3, Interesting)
Am I heading for disaster, or am I anatomically resistant to the problem?
Re:Are some people just immune to this? (Score:2)
First off, it's not going to sneak-up on you, and make you pay for all the time when you didn't have it, so don't worry about that. When you start feeling slight pains, then you should worry.
My own personal theory is that RSI is most influenced by, and has an inverse relationship to muscle mass/strength. This based on my own experience and observations, and certainly explains why women are much more likely to be affected than men.
Simple Stretch == No RSI (Score:4, Informative)
You basically hold your hands up in front of you, palms facing you. Then make a tight fist, and rotate each fist to the outside as far as it will go. Fists will tend to pull downward, which is fine. (Looking from above, the right fist rotates counter clockwise while the left first rotates clockwise.) Hold the stretch for about 10-15 seconds. For me, this has been the absolute cheapest, simplest, and laziest way to deal with RSI from typing.
Re:Simple Stretch == No RSI (Score:2)
That's why I added the comment about how it looks from above, since it's not clear any two people would agree on what rotating "outward" might mean. It's hard to describe body movement in text, but I'll try again.
First, sit down. Second, bend your arms so that your elbows are at your side, and your palms are in front of your face, kinda like you're holding an imaginary book. Next, clench palms into fist. Now rotate your fists as far as they will go.
Which di
I couldn't type for 11 years (Score:2, Insightful)
The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook: Your Self-Treatment Guide for Pain Relief by Clare Davies (this was 90% of the cure)
It's Not Carpal Tunnel Syndrome by Sharon Butler
There was nothing wrong with my wrists; it was
What worked for me (Score:2)
The Kinesis was expensive but it was worth every penny. Not only was it way better than the MS Natural at alleviating my symptoms, it has built in macros (for software/OS independent key macro), a sound chip, etc. It takes about 4 days to get used to, but then I was able to type faster than I _ever_ was able to in the past (without any pain).
I don't work
Newsflash: Sergey Brin takes a dump (Score:2)
Yes, fine, I admit it, everyone at Google is smarter, happier, richer, more statuesque, and throws better parties [evite.com] than The Rest of Us. We're not worthy. Now stop telling me about it.
Tokuhon medical plasters (Score:2)
- ?-Menthol
- Methyl Salicylate
- ??-Camphor
- Tocopherol Acetate
- Glycol Salicylate
Made by 'TOKUHON Corporation, 4-1-2,Nihonbashi-Honcho, Chu-ku, Tokyo, Japan'
Guerilla Marketing (Score:2)
I'm not worried. (Score:2)
Tingling Feeling? (Score:2)
Now my fingers just seize up and I lose feeling.
Re:Another more serious problem is retinal detachm (Score:2)
Wow. So there's an actual medical basis for what my Mama always told me. I wonder if it will also fall off, like she said?
That's completely wrong (Score:4, Informative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccade [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retinal_detachment [wikipedia.org]
Everything you posted is wrong.
Re:Another more serious problem is retinal detachm (Score:2)
I read that extreme short-sightedness increases the risk of retinal detachment, but otherwise trauma seems to be the main cause. Maybe it's due to the banging of heads against walls and/or monitor when the dreaded "This application has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down..." pops up seconds be
are you sure your not full of shit? (Score:2)
my friend had hers detatch.
I thought I had mine start to go (the doctor said not).
as far as I know its common in near sighted people.
but I was never told that eye strain causes it.
so yah...are you sure?
Re:hard work my ass (Score:2)
What was the part which said that it was hard work due to pounding on the keyboard?
Re:hard work my ass (Score:2)
Re:hard work my ass (Score:2)
Knowlege work may be emotionally or otherwise stressful (ever lose 95% of the world's antim*tter with a single keystroke? I have), but that isn't work in the commonly understood context of "hard work" which is commonly (except to the likes of
I've done manual labor too. (Score:1)
but i've never experienced the stress levels doing manual labor that I have with doing programming. that will certainly wear you out by the end of the day/week/month/year/decade.
Re:ennui elbow (Score:2)
Re:my problem with computing (Score:2)
Re:non-typing related problems (Score:2)
How do you sleep? I always slept with my elbows fully bent and under my head/pillow. I'd find my little finger and bottom half of my wrists would go numb at night. Any time your elbow is fully bent, you are stretching your ulnar about as far as it can go. The nerve is ob
Re:non-typing related problems (Score:2)
1. Stand in a corner about 2 or 3 feet from it. Place each hand on its respective wall at approx. shoulder height. Keep your feet planted and lean forward into the corner. You should feel a good stretch accross your chest.
2. Stand face-first up against a wall, and extend your left arm out flat(palm against the wall) perpendicular to your body. Keep feet planted and turn your body to your right, i.e. twist your hips and pull your right shoulder awa
Re:Everybody? Wrong!!! (Score:2)
Developing carpal tunnel is not a sure thing. You've got to figure in suspectibility to injury of the joints, level of exercise that counteracts repetitive movements, and various psychological factors.
Using a computer is not some sort of carpal tunnel death sentence. Get some activity, be aware of how much your attitude affects your body, and you can greatly reduce your chances of carpal tunnel. Throw in
Re:Google Discovers CTS (Score:2)