Windows Live Goes to College 330
Tobias writes "BetaNews is reporting that Microsoft has struck a deal with 72 different colleges to use Windows Live for their email services. The problem with this is that Windows Live does not support any browsers besides IE 6, does not support POP or IMAP, and does not support email forwarding." From the article: "The Redmond company believes that catching the students early on will turn them into life-long users of Windows Live. They would likely create a Windows Live Messenger account, start a blog and organize their favorites under this e-mail account -- especially if they plan to continue using it, Microsoft says."
Microsoft promises no ulterior plans. (Score:5, Funny)
Can they do that?
From the article:
"But although there has been a rapid uptake of the service, the company says it still meets resistance and skepticism. In return, Microsoft has been assuring education institutions that its only motivation is to get students using Windows Live, promising there are no ulterior plans."
Re:Microsoft promises no ulterior plans. (Score:2)
Re:Microsoft promises no ulterior plans. (Score:2)
Re:Microsoft promises no ulterior plans. (Score:2, Interesting)
Hopefully this will die quietly, like BOB did.
Re:Microsoft promises no ulterior plans. (Score:2)
Re:Microsoft promises no ulterior plans. (Score:3, Insightful)
It seems more like MS wants to solidify its hold on people that it probably
Re:Microsoft promises no ulterior plans. (Score:5, Insightful)
how long... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:how long... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:how long... (Score:2)
Email is SMTP... anything else is GUI fluff, and should be interchangable.
Re:how long... (Score:2)
Windows Live does not support any browsers besides IE 6, does not support POP or IMAP
Re:how long... (Score:3, Informative)
You forget, this is Microsoft that we're talking about; they're not going to let you get near anything that's open, easily understood, and platform-independent, like SMTP. All you have access to in Windows Live is a browser-based webmail service, one that's written so that you can only access it with IE.
I expect that all the backend stuff, the actual mailservers, are all owned by Microsoft (this would be the advantage to the schools -
Re:how long... (Score:3, Funny)
2.) Tell cron to execute the script daily
3.) Rejoice as you don't have to deal with the thing anymore, except for the occasional script update when the site layout changes
6.) Add obligatory "PROFIT!!" meme here
Re:how long... (Score:3, Informative)
See how they feel after one virus/worm cycle (Score:3, Insightful)
It does work on Firefox (Score:4, Informative)
Re:It does work on Firefox (Score:4, Informative)
It doesn't work. Microsoft is dragging their feet on Firefox support because, once again, their programmers do not know how to write to standards. Either that, or their managers are telling the programmers to wait on implementing a "workaround" for non-IE browers.
My guess though is that it's the former-- Microsoft simply doesn't hire employees that know or care about web standards. These guys are probably just learning about Firefox and the DOM as they go. They've only ever written to Microsoft's own JavaScript extensions.
In other words, they are incompetent.
Re:It does work on Firefox (Score:5, Insightful)
Wrong. Never attribute to stupidity what can be adequately explained by malice.
Re:It does work on Firefox (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:It does work on Firefox (Score:3, Funny)
When you access Windows Live Mail Beta on Firefox you are getting absolutely NO ajax-style features.
No Ajax? What do they think this is, Web 1.0 circa 2005?
Fucking cavemen.
Hate to break it to you, YOU ARE WRONG (Score:4, Informative)
There is no preview pane.
Sure is! Pretty pictures and all. Looks like Bush is probing gas prices.
There is no interactivity whatsoever.
I can drag/drop windows around, pop config menus, hit the +,- buttons, sure works great for me!
Suggest upgrading your Firefox. Or turning Javascript back on. One of the two.
Re:It does work on Firefox (Score:3, Insightful)
Now, forgive me for saying so, but it seems like a nobrainer that MS would focus on IE fu
Re:It does work on Firefox (Score:4, Funny)
C'mon Mozilla, hurry up, you're behind the fucking curve.
Re:It does work on Firefox (Score:4, Insightful)
The slashdot poster must have added his just added the extra spice to get posted on slashdot.
As far as your 'in other words' interpretation please go check out the channel9 presentations on windows live wherein they talk about their support for firefox.
Re:Safari is Microsofts recommended browser (Score:2)
Ok (Score:3, Interesting)
So, why did they do this? This mail service sounds like garbage (no offense MS). I can't use any standard email client with it.
Re:Ok (Score:4, Funny)
I think that was one of the design goals.
Re:Ok (Score:2)
You must be new here
Re:Ok (Score:5, Insightful)
The entire thing will be a serious pain in the ass for anyone with even mediocre IT savvy; the people who are used to using a web client will have no problems and are the easy audience for MS here (with MS hoping to use the structure of Windows Live to keep them as clients when they leave, since then they keep all their contacts etc); and the setup also forces the rest of the students - those who would prefer to do things in any of a variety of other ways - to stoop to using their system. MS are effectively pulling in a pile of easy targets, and then putting a big wall around the hard targets so they are stuck whether they like it or not. As seen in a good thread above, the common language means it does function in FF, but breaks its major featureset. Anyone in firefox will be stuck with a closed interface, and you won't find bets against that improving in a hurry, because it would be a door in that big wall MS are setting up.
Whether or not they're losing lockin elsewhere, they've jumped on the opportunity to get a new generation before that generation gets savvy enough to get up in arms about what's being done to them. Sure, there'll be a few, but not enough until someone writes an interface that shapes packets to enable automation of the features that MS are intentionally leaving out.
IMAP has been around for 20 years; POP3 for 12. The longevity and widespread use of these protocols is vast in terms of the internet and email; 20 years is a vast timespan for this arena. Yet MS have designed something that prevents both. I have no idea how long automatic email forwarding has been around for, but again it's something that MS have left out.
When I saw the summary on the front page, I saw it was tagged 'monopoly'. I initially dismissed that, because I thought that with email you can't get a monopoly so the tag was irrelevant in this case. But when you force, force, force people to use your system with no way of connecting it up to their other systems, and use the weight of an educational institution to enable that lockin, then it is indeed a monopoly. They're not getting any money from it yet (I very much hope an institution wouldn't pay for this system) so the traditional connotations of 'monopoly' aren't there yet - but they're forcing people in while and where they can't do anything about it. Keep the number of people, they'll get their profits, whether it's in systems required to be able to use their services or something further down the line for Windows Live.
The most irritating aspect for me... (Score:5, Insightful)
Some might argue that Google have a hidden agenda (and no-one has quite worked out what that is yet) but with their offerings such as their GMail for Businesses, regular GMail, Calendar, etc there isn't a 'hook' - its just there. You use it, you don't - You like it, you don't - so what.
With Microsoft its always something like "We want to get people to be lifelong users" or "We reserve the right to turn on adverts when people graduate" - there is always a caveat or other reason rather than "This is a damn good product - we think it will sell itself".
I can't wait to be rid of Windows at home and just be done with Microsoft.
Re:The most irritating aspect for me... (Score:4, Insightful)
Statistics in your face. (Score:4, Insightful)
The Microsoft platform monopoly is very weak right now. Any web application designed for a single version of M$ will fail for about half of your users. While they still have sizable majority of OS use, you can't count on a specific version being present. When you permutate that with browser used, your numbers fall even more.
Less than 60% of people use IE 6 [w3schools.com]. That means about two in five people will not be able to use this stupid service.
Even M$ OS share is slipping. XP, the "dominant" platform only has 79% of the market. If you take out what people use at work, the Linux + Mac percentage is probably better than 10% now.
So, while IE 6 is "available" to a majority of users, 25% prefer something else. In short, they care.
If your school cares, they won't be using this service.
Re:The most irritating aspect for me... (Score:2)
Nope, it's pretty clear they crawl the user mail to affect pagerank. A page that is talked about a lot in the mail is likely to be more important than others, so it goes up for given (Subject:) keywords.
(of course they are also using the data to for building (teaching) a superior AI which is to take over the world on their behalf, but that's just a rumor).
Re:The most irritating aspect for me... (Score:2)
How is it pretty clear? Do you actually have any evidence to back up your assertion? Am I missing something here?
Re:The most irritating aspect for me... (Score:2)
Re:The most irritating aspect for me... (Score:2)
One unique IP sending one piece of mail to one gmail address with given URL: +0.1
Same IP sending the URL any account above 10th: no bonus
Same IP sending more than 10 URLs a day: no bonus
Receivers marking as spam: -0.5.
etc, etc.
Sure you can try to game the system, but this isn't quite as easy, especially if the system can easily backfire. Probably that's why they aren't doing it -now- too, working on a sp
Re:The most irritating aspect for me... (Score:2)
It's *always* about the money - an imaginable side-effect of living in a capitalist society.
Re:The most irritating aspect for me... (Score:2)
I've tried Windows live email .. EEEK! (Score:3, Interesting)
Also, I can't even see my folders - after using hotmail live for about a minute, the folders section is reduced to about 1mm in size.... also, when you are reading EVERY email, there is an AD right next to the email reading window - and so you are forced to read that stupid ad with every email that you read...
msn/hotmail live SUX! they are just trying badly to copy gmail! maybe their servers are clogged up or something to explain the bad refresh speed...
The thing is... (Score:5, Interesting)
So, uh, all hype, and it's sorta nerdy - but does it matter?
Re:The thing is... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The thing is... (Score:4, Insightful)
You might say that if the CS department had any clout in terms of IT decisions that they would use that clout to block the adoption of this service. That said, I'm not sure the faculty in technical fields have much say in anything. I'm an undergrad at a university with a well-respected Computer Engineering department and the department's IT staff mandates crappy and broken "web boards" instead of newsgroups, won't set up servers for things like CVS/SVN (supposedly they'd rather try to roll their own web-based stuff, so classes tend to use whatever places they have available to set up repositories) and refuses to set up a Linux lab when that's what a class desires (instead we had a lab of Windows machines running Linux under Virtual PC, which is mostly adequate but sometimes a bit of a pain). The web-based portal that all their services go through has a bunch of ads on it, which is probably the reason they want as many services as possible to rely on it. The students and the faculty don't have a lot of choice in the matter. Either way, we can still learn the same ideas even if we don't always do it in the most elegant way possible.
CS department != IT (Score:5, Informative)
My uni has a decent CS department, who run everything for their department themselves. We have access to their solaris machines and we have all of the normal mail (POP3/IMAP/SMTP) services, and can SSH to the machines etc. etc.
The university however (and anyone on any other course) has to make use of crappy Novell Netware webmail. I could easily see them moving to this new MS system if the managers high up in the IT department were sent enough free copies of Office by MS, or whatever they are bribing them all with.
When this list is published, expect to see a lot of top uni's with deccent CS departments in there. And whether or not they have a decent CS department or not, we can't say "oh it's ok, they don't have MIT so it doesn't mean anything" - MS are still going to be forcing literally hundreds of thousands of upcoming young adults into only knowing their own proprietary system.
Re:CS department != IT (Score:3, Informative)
It's a little more complicated than that, but, yeah.
I work for the Technical Staff of the CS department at Virginia Tech. Our department is not responsible for the university infrastructure (that's these guys [vt.edu]). However, we are closely tied in with them. Way "back in the day", there was no CNS, and the Computer Science department did run the campus infrastructure (when there were something on the order of 20 terminals on campus). One of the people that works with me helped to run the first network here a
Windows Live Goes to College... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Windows Live Goes to College... (Score:2)
Ok .. time for a bad analogy (Score:4, Funny)
Who was it that said
Re:Ok .. time for a bad analogy (Score:2)
And the phrase worked quite well for him. He didn't love anyone.
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Re:Ok .. time for a bad analogy (Score:2)
"If you love something, set it free.
If it comes back to you, it's yours.
If it doesn't, hunt it down and kill it."
Cheers...
Government control (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Government control (Score:2)
The reason for the media player case (Score:2)
There is a case that governments should rule that no college which receives any kind of taxpayer funding should be allowed
Re:The reason for the media player case (Score:2)
I won't. That would essentially outlaw textbooks.
Bundling (Score:2)
Actually, it really does. More accurately, it doesn't lock the user in, but it locks the competition out. First, many users are too disinterested or technically unskilled to install other media players and will default to whatever is preinstalled. Second, in business environments, many users do not have administrative rights on their computers, and either I.T. will not install media players or it is a hard enough process that the users will again, fall back to w
webmail (Score:3, Interesting)
It's not nearly as good as an e-mail client where you can organize, flag, set rules, mark certain domains with colors bla bla. Also, who wants to refresh the page every x minutes to check for email, or have it reloading and wasting a IE page or tab in firefox/opera whatever when you can just have a small client open and every x minute goes and checks for messages. And the lack of forwarding sucks. What if you want to forward yesterday's notes to your lab partner(s) because he was out sick? Not supporting POP? I'm not sure that's such a big deal, unless it means it doesn't have a pop server that you can't log into. If that's true then see my above comments.
What schools? (Score:3, Interesting)
About Time (Score:5, Funny)
About time somebody went to college... I hear the founder was a dropout
<giggle/> <Chuckle/> Love those guys. (Score:3, Insightful)
Do they really think they're going to compete with gmail that late in the kids' lives?
Re: Love those guys. (Score:2)
If your prof is handing out assignments and other stuff via email, and the only way to read it is via this Windows Live crap, then yes, they really can compete. If those kids won't use Windows Live and can't use Gmail for their school stuff, they'll likely be flunking out. Now, it would be interesting to see what the school would do if an entire year flunked out because of this, but somehow I think the kids will fold
Re: Love those guys. (Score:2)
Re: Love those guys. (Score:2)
does not support POP or IMAP
SMTP is irrelevant here. You don't use SMTP to get mail, just to send it.
Re: Love those guys. (Score:2)
I'd guess it doesn't have SMTP anyway, since its stated objective is to lock people into the Windows Live email system, and allowi
Just like McDonalds... (Score:4, Insightful)
MS, used to be "good" used to be the underdog taking on IBM and Big Iron. Bringing affordable computing to the little guy, breaking the Vender Lock In (tm)...
"Whoever battles monsters should take care not to become a monster too, for if you stare long enough into the Abyss, the Abyss stares also into you."
--Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil, chapter 4, no. 146
Its a shame, really it is...
Re:Just like McDonalds... (Score:3, Funny)
--Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil, chapter 4, no. 146
Who's this Nietzsche guy, and why is he ripping off Dylan Hunt quotes?
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Re:Just like McDonalds... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Just like McDonalds... (Score:2)
What the hell does that mean ? I thought an abyss was something similar to a chasm or large hole, they don't have eyes, they can't stare back at you and even in the unlikely event you did happen across an abyss which had developed eyes and it could stare back at you then what has that got do with monsters, how can you become a monster by finding this unfeasible
Re:Just like McDonalds... (Score:2)
(Yes, an abyss is something similar to a chasm or large hole... but The Abyss, in caps and otherwise taken in context, is clearly a reference to Hell. The passage should be read metaphorically rather than literally: it refers not to literal visual observation of a physical entryway to Hell, but... well, I've provided enough hints that you should get it by now).
Re:Just like McDonalds... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Just like McDonalds... (Score:2)
Except all of us have hotmail accounts. We all grew up with hotmail. But most of my friends now use hotmail as their "spam account." Hotmail accounts tend to get used for registration crap, but when I ask for an email address from a collegue, most of the time I'll get a personal domain, work, school, gmail, or yahoo. Having a hotmail or msn email makes you look like a noob idiot.
Just because you grew up using it doesn't mean you are loyal to it.
MS didnt take on IBM (Score:2)
Re:Just like McDonalds... (Score:2)
Try this simple experiment, simple word association.
Next time your around people you know, ask them to say the first thing that pops into their head when you say these words:
Fast food
Burger
Computer
Soda or Pop
You ge
It is actually designed to work well with FireFox (Score:2, Informative)
"Supported Browsers: IE 6.0 and above and Firefox (latest point release)*
Non-Supported Browsers: Opera and Safari
Windows Live is optimized for IE 6.0. Firefox rendering technologies provide an experience nearly identical to IE5.5, so pages designed for IE 5.5 should look good in Firefox as well. Technologies not supported in IE 6.0 may no
Kids! (Score:2, Funny)
Reminds Me (Score:2)
I know there are a lot of Mac users on slashdot (including myself) but how many people really started using macs in school and just never bothered to learn anything else?
The problem with this line of thinking is that technology moves too fast for this to really be effective. Someone starting at one of those 70 Universities today will, in the 4
Students might not accept it (Score:3, Interesting)
Oh, man. I can just imagine the reaction if my University tried to bring in something like this. It wouldn't just be the Software Libre lunatic fringe objecting -- we have a lot of fairly technically-capable students who like to read and store their mail on their laptops, and they'd howl the place down. Even the relatively technically unclued around here do their browsing with Firefox.
Mac users would particularly hate it, especially considering Microsoft's recent statements regarding IE on OSX.
Re:Students might not accept it (Score:2)
Yup. More like "The Redmond company believes that..." freezing Apple out of colleges (and schools in general) is a pivotal attack point.
One way to tell which universities don't value freedom and diversity in practice.
outsided again (Score:3, Interesting)
I s'pose that if I were at one of these schools, I would take one glance at it, decide that it's a valiant effort but incompatible with the world at large in a typically-for-MS sort of way, and not use it.
Meaning I'd probably be locked out of communicating with 90%+ of my peers (who are invariably less picky and don't mind (or notice?) being locked into being life-long users of one specific application).
Which is why I have about 3 friends. So all of the above is more or less immaterial (but nonetheless now captured for posterity).
Re:outsided again (Score:2)
I was lucky - most of my lecturers didn't like the university email system much either so at the beginning of the year they asked everyone to write down their name and preferred email address on a list. But quite a few people weren't so lucky...
Re:outsided again (Score:2)
Catching early on? (Score:2)
That's how KGB recruited Philby, Burgess, Maclean and Blake. Good luck Bill. You'll need it more than I do.
great choice for teaching marketing (Score:3, Insightful)
Skew (Score:2)
It's a matter of control (Score:3, Insightful)
G. Orwell
Lessee - a filtered search engine, control of all incoming and outgoing communications, a Media Center telescreen on the wall at the commons and in most of the rooms...
Winston Smith: Does Big Brother exist?
O'Brien: Of course he exists.
They Might Be Right (Score:3, Interesting)
Just think of how many people (Joe Average types, not geeks) started off with DOS/Windows 3.1 machines and built up a whole lot of data on their boxes between the original release and even up to a year or two after Windows 95 was released. Then when the time came to move to a new PC, remember how all of those users migrated their data from the Windows 3.1 box to Windows 95. They were very painstaking in their attention to detail with their precious data, lovingly learning about the file formats and required conversions and then running test migrations before committing to the moved data. And when some of them moved to Macintoshes when the iMacs came out, they were even very good about carrying their data and converting properly there too. Yes, I believe the Microsoft is right in thinking that they will have lifelong customers by 0wnz0ring their user's data and keeping them from using third rate products from competitors. The day and age of people wanting to try alternatives to the mainstream products, have come and gone. Everyone is perfectly happy with the products and services that MS gives them these days and really has no interest in alternatives like Firefox, Google, Mac OS X or Linux. So MS can say this with confidence since there will never be a day when their users might want to migrate their Windows Live data to another service.
Re:Cue the "window sucks" whiners (Score:3)
Re:Seems problematic and not well thoughtout (Score:2)
Don't know about universities, but as I get around rather a lot of corporate client sites, I'd have to say damned few are running anything other than IE6, kept pretty much up to date with patches. At least, the ones with fulltime IT staff with any sort of clue. True, I mostly work in Financial Services, where security is a bit of a hot potato, but even the clients on Win2k are running IE6.
Re:Most students arent doing computer science (Score:5, Insightful)
Wrong! Most students will not have an opinion until they experience it. Many will still not have an opinion after that.
"Most dont know or want to know what pop/smtp/imap are"
True, but they will find out the hard way that their e-mail service is lacking something that they can't name. At the latest, they will do so when they try to read their e-mail in some webcafé or similar place that only has a non-IE browser. They will also notice that a lot of their friends have a choice of mail clients, whereas they do not.
When I built an e-mail system for a business school, I was positively surprised by the amount of people who were actually knowledgable far beyond my expectations and they were really opinionated. Freedom of choice matters even among non-CS students. The CS students will of course be outraged and disgusted.
I think a remarkable amount of students will rely on gmail for their e-email.
Re:Most students arent doing computer science (Score:2)
Of course, most internet cafes have only IE. In my experience anyway. Your mileage may vary.
Re:Most students arent doing computer science (Score:2)
Generally speaking, there is a simple rule in "non CS" departments:
http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive/phd1112.gi f [phdcomics.com]
http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive/phd1113.gi f [phdcomics.com]
http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive/phd1114.gi f [phdcomics.com]
Re:Most students arent doing computer science (Score:3)
And here I thought the purpose of school was to teach people not whore out their students to corporations.
Lets call spade a spade here. Schools just sold their students to MS. There is no other way to look at it.
Re:Most students arent doing computer science (Score:2, Interesting)
hrmm... loooks like something else somebody said about M$ purposely delaying a firefox "workaround" for this windows live thing - they'll initially come without pop/smtp, and then a year into it, they'll "suddenly make a breakthrough" with it and you can subscribe to the "groundbreakingly new advanced features" of pop/smtp...
Re:Windows Live Supports Firefox (Score:5, Informative)
I invited my non-tech friend to Gmail, and she used it as a second email account for a while. After trying out Windows Live Mail, she switched to Gmail on her main account, not liking the direction Hotmail was going.
Wonder (Score:2)
You would think that eventually M$ would understand this, but the problem is, their whole business model is based on manipulation through lo
Re:int colleges+=72; (Score:2, Interesting)
Microsoft: error C2143: syntax error : missing ';' before '+='
GCC: error: syntax error before += token
Re:Give us the blacklist! (Score:2)
Re:Give us the blacklist! (Score:2)
Unless the school requires you to use it, by sending important school stuff through that email, or the profs using that because it's easier than trying to remember l33tdude787@gmail.com or whatever for 500 students. So you could very easily have to use it, and given that it doesn't support pop3, ima
Re:Give us the blacklist! (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not only the personal inconvenience that's involved. Wouldn't you question the administration's ability to make sound decisions in other areas, based on their bad decisions in areas that are visible. Would you want to attend a college run by a bunch of yahoos?
Re:Give us the blacklist! (Score:2)
Amen, bro! (Score:2)
You wouldn't believe how many whiny-assed excuses you hear, but if you really want to make a difference, you have to make a change.
Nuthin' but Debian at my house!
Re:Benefits? (Score:3, Insightful)
The school for itself should downgrade its e-mail servers to a simpler setup for just staff and researchers. This is probably more for legal reasons (eg. need to keep backup copies of important communications) than for security (eg. press forward to "@gmail.com" and its gone)
Ju