EOE Concerns w/ Electronic-only Job Application? 402
Khyber asks: "Jobs seem to be increasingly harder to find in the real world today, and even harder to obtain due to the increased proliferation of on-line-only or electronic-only job applications. I know this firsthand - as today I attempted to apply for a job at Kroger's, only to discover that I had to fill out one of these electronic applications in their 'Career Opportunities Kiosk.' The machine miserably failed to get past the second page of the multi-paged the application. I've asked the manager if there was a paper application to fill out (why do I need to know how to use a computer to stock shelves?) and he has told me that I -must- fill out the application on their broken and defunct Dell Genesis Terminal. Are there legal concerns that I should be looking at, here?"
"Kroger's claims to be an EOE employer, however I feel that I am being denied my equal opportunity to gain employment due to the failings of a broken piece of software and hardware, and the refusal by the manager to give me a paper application to fill out, as an alternative. Can this be considered discriminatory to those of a lower education level in their attempt to obtain a job, as well? Are there any laws on the books that give me the opportunity to fill out the application on paper as opposed to digitally?"
Regulations Regulations Regulations (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Regulations Regulations Regulations (Score:5, Insightful)
If there is a person taking an application, that person can always be accused of bias. Theoretically, a machine doesn't CARE the race/gender/whatever of the applicant. It doesn't know what that info is, and if it does ask (for EEO reporting purposes)sure as shit the code has been audited/certified by the vendor supplying it.
Their machine was broken. Take it at face value. Believe it or not, you don't have a right to be given a job - only the right not to be denied a job based on certain characteristics. Being a litigious jerk is not one of them.
Re:Regulations Regulations Regulations (Score:3, Insightful)
I've filled out 5 of them so far (and not one has even contacted me and two of the places have big ass "NOW HIRING!" signs right where you sign up and in front of the store) and in every instance they all had the same thing in common, they asked what race & gender I was.
Now the computer might not care what skin color or biological organs you are & might have but the machine doesn't determine if you get the job or not, a human
Re:Regulations Regulations Regulations (Score:3, Informative)
Some of those *are* legal to ask. Birthdate? OK. Race? OK, but you don't have to answer (they collect this data to prove that they're not throwing away all black applications, for example). How you get to work? OK.
Discrimination / lower education level (Score:3, Insightful)
Um . . . I wouldn't want to work for a company that didn't discriminate based on education level.
Re:Discrimination / lower education level (Score:2)
I'd probably find it easier to fill out the online form though... An injury caused me to have reduced fine motor control, so I'd have real difficulty handwriting in tiny boxes.
Re:Discrimination / lower education level (Score:2)
Re:Discrimination / lower education level (Score:2)
And besides, expensive is relative - if you make more you can spend more - it's all about the ratio of income to expense.
Re:Discrimination / lower education level (Score:2)
Re:Discrimination / lower education level (Score:2)
Re:Discrimination / lower education level (Score:2)
I don't think there's
Re:Discrimination / lower education level (Score:2)
Until an application can be created to deal with ev
How could he apply? (Score:3, Insightful)
So his problem is with a company not providing a means to apply for a jo
Re:How could he apply? (Score:2)
Equal opprotunity employment is a violation of our freedom to associate. An employer should be able to hire or fire anyone for any reason. It is a private contract between the employee and employer and the government should not be involved. In the case of direct government jobs, the government may make up its own rules. However, I am fully opposed to the government bribing its contractors to follow any employment practice. Furthermore, any company that discriminates based
Re:How could he apply? (Score:2)
Then again, perhaps it decided that it didn't like what he put down on the first or second page and decided to feign malfunction as a way to keep certain types from applying. Bingo, a way to screen out/discriminate against applicants while claiming ignorance/innocence. Even for a stockboy position. They might even have a reject switch they use when they just don't lik
Re:Discrimination / lower education level (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Discrimination / lower education level (Score:2, Insightful)
Last time I checked (early 90's) the military wasn't accepting anyone without a high school diploma or GED. Has this rule changed since then?
Re:Discrimination / lower education level (Score:4, Insightful)
The military forces you to confront this early, it's a great level set for the rest of your life.
Re:Discrimination / lower education level (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Discrimination / lower education level (Score:3, Funny)
Enquiring minds want to know...
Re:Discrimination / lower education level (Score:3, Insightful)
Hell, half the IT job descriptions I've seen were written by some mental-midget in HR who would round-file Bill Gates' app due to lack of a degree.
And rightly so - Bill Gates is a businessman, not a programmer.
Mod Story -1 Troll (Score:5, Funny)
Submitter totally misunderstands what EOE means (Score:5, Informative)
"Equal opportunity employer" means they do not discriminate on the basis of legally protected traits (such as those protected by the Civil Rights Act of 1964 [wikipedia.org] - race, color, religion, sex, or national origin). Education (or lack there) is *NOT* a protected characteristic. They are perfectly free to say that people who have below a certain level of education need not apply. (And the reverse is also true - I remember hearing about a police department in New Hamshipre that would not take applicants with above a 105 IQ, citing the high rate of burnout due to boredom)
Re:Submitter totally misunderstands what EOE means (Score:5, Interesting)
Education level discrim. can be legal, here's why. (Score:3, Informative)
However, it's progressively easier to claim that the education is required, as more and more jobs require employees to
I is unedumicated (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
a 105 IQ? (Score:2)
Re:Submitter totally misunderstands what EOE means (Score:2)
I wonder how they came up with a dumb policy like that...
Re:Submitter totally misunderstands what EOE means (Score:2)
Actually, using IQ and education level in hiring is [wikipedia.org] considered in violation of civil rights laws in some circumstances, if the requirements are not "reasonably related" to the job in question.
Re:Submitter totally misunderstands what EOE means (Score:2)
It's not necessarily limited to jobs that don't require a college degree. I know a guy who couldn't get a job as a software engineer until he took his doctorate off of his resumé.
"Disparate impact" (Score:2)
Re:Submitter totally misunderstands what EOE means (Score:2)
Shouldn't you be toking up all day today hippie?
Might not be what you think (Score:3, Interesting)
Maybe, just maybe they want to discourage you from applying. Maybe they don't like your face and tell you to use the broken machine, in the hope that you'll just give up, and they reserve hand-written applications forms for applicants that look more "kosher" than you to them.
I knew of an employer you used such tactics with applicants of black and arabic origins: he didn't want to be sued for racial discrimination, so he made sure non-white applicants had a really hard time applying.
Re:Might not be what you think (Score:2)
There are tons of cases of this that ended up costing companies big money. The interview process must be the same for everyone... one company lost a considerable amount because one guy that had some issue (was either black, or had some other difference the person didn't like), and that person's interview was only 10 minutes, compared to the normal 45minute interview everyone else got.
It is way to easy to prove that an artificial barrier is in place for certain types of people.
Jumping through hoops *is* the interview. (Score:4, Interesting)
That was all he really wanted to know, did I want the job enough to jump some simple hoops? or was I a QUITTER?
Pretty much the interview was for show, I had the job barring being a total moron in the short interview.
You don't have a work history, neither did I at the time, so what do they judge you on?
They judge you how much do you want the job. When you have provable value and skills you can complain about how they jerked you around.
In the meantime, they saved themselves hiring a guy that gives up easy.
In other words, you have choosen poorly. Now learn from it.
Learning is not compulsory... niether is survival. -Deming
Re:Jumping through hoops *is* the interview. (Score:4, Insightful)
More like, did you want the job badly enough to let him fuck you around, or would you maintain your self-respect and walk out? Because obviously he wanted someone he could crap on that would smile about it if he kept you waiting for 45 minutes when there was no need for it.
Employees are the most important resource in any company. You get more out of employees who like you and who have self-respect than you do from people who will take any kind of abuse you throw at them.
If I were hiring people I'd like to give them the same test, but call them back after they walked out and went home and have them come back for the real interview. The people who were willing to sit around for ages either have no self-respect, or need the job too badly.
no you need to stop being a whiney bitch. (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.kroger.com/careers.htm [kroger.com]
Accomodations because you can't use a computer? (Score:5, Funny)
WTF? (Score:2)
Re:WTF? (Score:3, Funny)
The bar association wouldn't give me a referral unless I filled out an electronic form specifying what kind of lawyer I wanted to talk to!
Re:WTF? (Score:2)
Referral? Referral? They don't need no stinkin' referral. They got Slashdot! Home of Perfect Legal Advice. One million nerds can't be wrong!
you have to have have some basic skills (Score:2)
If the server is broken, then the server is broken (Score:2, Insightful)
Adding basic mouse clicking and typing skills to the list seems pretty minor.
All the basic mouse clicking and typing skills in the world won't get you past "Connection timed out" or "The document contains no data" even after several reloads.
Re:If the server is broken, then the server is bro (Score:2)
glad they're gone (Score:5, Funny)
write your entire life history here -> [______]
Do not omit significant details.
in a little 1/2" square box.
Re:glad they're gone (Score:2)
And COBOL-based electronic application programs that cut you off at 30 characters and disallow lower-case are better? At least on the paper applications, there was a margin to write in.
Re:glad they're gone (Score:2, Funny)
"Do not write in this space."
'OK'
What the heck are you talking about? (Score:5, Insightful)
Everybody has an Equal Opportunity to operate this crappy machine. Honestly I have no idea what the hell you're going on about.
that's life, deal with it. (Score:2)
Equal opportunity rejection (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not sure I understand your story: if the company's photocopier was broken and they couldn't give you a paper form, would you post to Slashdot about it being unequal? Or would you just wait until they fixed it? Did the manager refuse to fix the machine? Is the problem a broken machine or a bad design? If you are critiquing software, maybe a job at Krogers isn't for you. Alternatively, if you tried to be 31337 and broke the machine, then it is discriminating against hackers.
Being a moron is not a disability... (Score:5, Insightful)
Even then, do you really want to work for a company that you had to sue to get a job? Do you think they really want you on staff if they are forced to hire you on due to a lawsuit?
And what the hell are you talking about it being hard to find a job? The nation wide unemployment rate is around 5%, there are a LOT of jobs out there. Likely even jobs that you are qualified for. But YOU have to find them.
-Rick
Re:Being a moron is not a disability... (Score:2)
However, I don't agree that you should just go away if you are discriminated against. Discrimination should be vigorously opposed. In the case of discriminatory hiring, sue (or do whatever it takes) to punish the person or company who's discriminating. You're not required to accept the job afterwards, but this is still not a poin
Re:Bureau of Labor Statistics == BuLlSh** (Score:2)
Re:Bureau of Labor Statistics == BuLlSh** (Score:3, Informative)
This is not true.
In BLS definitions, people are considered employed if they did any work at all for pay or profit during the survey week. This includes not only regular full-time year-round empl
Like this (Score:3, Informative)
any other questions?
Re:Bureau of Labor Statistics == BuLlSh** (Score:2)
Re:Bureau of Labor Statistics == BuLlSh** (Score:3, Informative)
Then "many places" are printing incorrect information.
Unemployment numbers count people who are not employed and who are looking for work, regardless of whether they're receiving money from unemployment insurance. The rate does decline when people can't find work and give up looking, but it includes recent graduates who are looking for work.
Perhaps the real problem was..... (Score:3, Funny)
No laws to protect the stupid (Score:3, Interesting)
It would seem that an online application would be preferable in terms of equal opportunity. The person reading the application wouldn't be able to easily determine your race from the electronic forms. And it could hide your name and other identifying information from the manager until he/she decided to interview you. I would also suspect that it would be easier to gather metrics using a digital medium, to ensure fairness.
To answer your question more directly, I don't think there's anything illegal or unethical about their system, unless they're using it as a filter to only allow "acceptable" people to apply. (Which may very well be the case.) But EOE disclaimers only list things like race, gender, ethnicity, age, sexual preference, and disability. I don't think we'd want them to go further into things such as intelligence, people skills, personal hygiene -- things that might actually effect performance and teamwork.
I also fail to understand why you'd ask for legal advice from a bunch of geeks. And why you read Slashdot, yet claim to be technically dis-inclined.
Getting a job is harder (Score:2)
The online (Score:2)
Back in the day I applied for a company on the kiosk and of course it crashed near the end. Not to mention you have to use their retarded key pad, etc.
I asked the manager and he pointed me to the online version.
Check the companies Website. You'll probably see a version online.
Perfect plan... (Score:2)
2 - Sue company X
3 - Get hired by company X
How the hell does this get through the editors?
I think you mean... (Score:2)
2 - Sue company X
3 - Settle with company X for far more than you ever would have made bagging groceries
Pathetic.
-1, Whiny Troll (Score:3, Funny)
Think of it this way, everyone who tried to apply that day was fucked, so there's no discrimination.
Think of it this way (Score:2)
Probably not a legal problem (Score:3, Insightful)
My guess is that the manager in question simply isn't very woried about hiring anybody right now. If he was working 60+ hours a week to cover for a short staff, you can bet he'd make sure your application was accepted electronically, on paper, or in just about any other form short of scratched onto the wall of a cave...
Of course, the obligatory disclaimer: IANAL, etc., so take it for what it's worth...
Jobs hard to find? Since When? (Score:2)
Criminy, every time I look at the computer it's "steve Jobs this, Steve Jobs that". Newspaper and TV too...
Good luck (Score:2, Insightful)
Cost (Score:3, Informative)
Hiring costs are a big deal, especially for large companies. A crapload of stuff can be automated. For example, if there's a minimum age requirement, the application software can automatically ignore all the 17 year olds who applied for a bartending job instead of having some HR person manually go through a stack of applications to sort out the idiots who applied even though they couldn't legally qualify. Trimming down the applicants to those who meet the minimum job requirements can save lots of time and money.
It's also easier to re-evaluate previous applicants when there are new job openings. Just because someone hired for one job doesn't mean you want to ignore them for future jobs. An automated system makes this possible. Paper applications are too much of a pain to review months later.
Data retention is another big deal. I know in California you are required to retain applications for one year (might be a Federal law, not sure). It's a damn sight easier to keep the data in electronic form rather instead of a big ass filing cabinet filled with thousands of applications you will never look at (nothing says you have to look at the applications, just retain them).
You might have a case... (Score:3, Insightful)
Otherwise... it isn't discrimination, they just have a broken Kiosk.
Your opportunity (Score:2, Informative)
Why use a computer (Score:2)
Other times there are many more applicants than would be expected for jobs. Factors like these lead to having very many applications for a limited number of jobs.
Even if the company's investment in human time was just a few minutes per applicant, it is a significant manount of time in total.
Rather than spead a human's time o
Where are all these people? (Score:3, Interesting)
Where are these people when we (in the business community) put up ads for employment?
Most of the business owners I know (yes, we all know one another...that's what those silly clubs like Kiwanis and Rotary is all about) can't seem to find an employee that's worth jack shit, when they can even find people at all.
Is there some cosmic disconnect? Nobody can find employees, and none of the unemployed can find jobs. I don't get it.
Re:Where are all these people? (Score:3, Funny)
Yes, I know it's you - you can't fool my by posting AC.
Looks like one more opening (and one more unemployed
No, you do not have an EEOC case. (Score:2)
To put things in perspective, the EEOC itself is moving to online claims filing.
As far as Kroger's is concerned, there is an online version of the form, which you should be able to get at, if you are able to post on Slashdot.
In the online form, it clearly states:
Legal protection for Companies via Brass Ring (Score:2)
Fighting it was difficult- we could not legally (their words, IANAL) email a candidate we liked to ask him to submit his/her resume. We had to simply tell them that we could interview them but nothing would come of it unless they submitted an application online.
Why? Because now we can be 'tracked' for government purposes. We would be 'complying' with the
Short answer... (Score:2)
You can forget it unless you are:
- A racial minority
- A woman
- Physically disabled
or
- Mentally disabled
Also, you should be aware that most retail and grocery "shelf-stocking" positions aren't in the stores themselves, but through the vendors that make/distribute the products. Our company serves retail stores and has hundreds of "field merchandisers" whose job it is to go into stores and move our product from the loading dock area to the sales
stocking shelves (Score:3, Informative)
Inventory control and RFID, to name a couple of reasons
Jobs aren't hard to find. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Jobs aren't hard to find. (Score:3, Interesting)
It'd really just a hit and miss game, and we live in a world where it is increasingly difficult to create aything but the blandest, most vague resumes.
Some companies have a policy against accepting anything.
Sure, if someone shows up to the interview and is unprofessional, don't hire them.
Jobs can be very hard to find. I was out of work for nine months, and I spend 40 hours a week on getting a job. I am not lazy, and would walk from company to compa
It's they way we are headed (Score:2, Interesting)
The Kiosk Is The Issue, Not Education (Score:2)
More information would be needed, but there could be a case.
For example:
Is the f
I've used such a application computer (Score:2)
I remember making an error, going back a page, and losing everything. It was embarassing to say the least,
"CLEAN UP TEH GIB FROM NOOB TEH WEBGUY ON AISLE 3 PLZ LOLOLO"
Get Over Yourself (Score:2)
The EOE is about race, religion, sex, color, age, national origin, or physical or mental disability, etc. Not education. It's perfectly legal for a company to require computer ability and minimum education level to get a job. We do it all the time (clue: read the want ads some time. See where it says "BS Degree Required"?).
Kroger however I feel that I am being denied my equal opportunity to gain employment due to the failings of a broken piece of software and ha
Re:And a ./ reader wants to work at Kroeger's why? (Score:2)
I'M KIDDING!!!
Re:And a ./ reader wants to work at Kroeger's why? (Score:2)
I had less than 1 year of experience being a NT/Netware Lan admin when my job went to India as we moved our IT operations there.
I have no college degree so no one would hire me. I work at 7.50/hr now and live at home with my parents while I get my degree. I gave up in computers and I am quite bitter and dont want to go back in the field again.
Re:And a ./ reader wants to work at Kroeger's why? (Score:2)
Not trying to be funny, but do you think that might be why you don't have a high paying job in your chosen field?
Re:Legal Concerns? (Score:2)
It's an unreasonable and insurmountable burden to completing the application, even if it is theoretically possible to comply.
Re:Legal Concerns? (Score:2)
Re:Legal Concerns? (Score:2)
Complying with the letter of the law isn't enough, especially if it's obvious even to fools that you aren't complying with the spirit of it.
Re:Legal Concerns? (Score:3)
Re:Legal Concerns? (Score:4, Insightful)
Wait, is that the smell of Karma burning?
Re:Legal Concerns? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Legal Concerns? (Score:2)
You know, he's the kind of guy that is a bit tech-savvy, maybe even does a little programming at home. Maybe he accidentally discovered he could induce the bug that prevents it from working, with a certain procedure.
This is aggravated by the fact that, when asked to fix the flaw that makes it impossible to take applications, he refused. Obviously, tomorrow some white guy wo
Re:Legal Concerns? (Score:2)
I agree. Although I have sympathy for the user of an apparently broken terminal, I presume all applicants faced a similar burden. I must confess to being a bit alarmed by this line, however:
Can this be considered discriminatory to those of a lower education level in their attempt to obtain a job, as well?
There is no such thing as discrimination based on education. People with
Re:Jobs are hard to find? (Score:2)
I drove through Taco Bell at lunch time, they had rows of "Help Wanted" fliers taped to the window for job positions there. They're offering $9/hour, starting pay. They might as well be begging people to work for them.
The local McDonald's even went a step further. They have a large, approximately 9' square sign posted next to the drive through, offering similar wages to Taco Bell.
Re:Jobs are hard to find? (Score:2)
Re:This is not how you get a job (Score:2)
That's pretty much how I got my current job.