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Closet Slashdotters: The 'Intellectually Curious' 394

Posted by samzenpus
from the don't-call-me-a-nerd dept.
An anonymous reader writes "Slashdotters are certified geeks, but apparently there's a bunch of other people out there who are very interested in science, technology, politics and culture but they don't want to be known as geeks. A media consulting firm called OMD did a study for the company that owns Space.com and LiveScience. They conclude that 60 million Americans can be called "intellectually curious." Intellectually, I'm curious what that makes the rest of them."
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Closet Slashdotters: The 'Intellectually Curious'

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  • by sbaker (47485) * on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @09:31PM (#15162037) Homepage
    Slashdoter? One who dotes on slash? Cool!
  • by jfclavette (961511) on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @09:32PM (#15162044)
    Intellectually, I'm curious what that makes the rest of them."
    MySpace users
    • TV viewers
    • by ThomasFlip (669988)
      or people that watch Friends or people that listen to top 40 music or people who watch the OC or people who read People Magazine or George Bush or people that don't vote or people that watch American Idol or people that believe in Creationism or people that follow celebrities closely or etc...
      • by jbrader (697703) <stillnotpynchon@gmail.com> on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @10:20PM (#15162249)
        It's not so much any one of those things but rather some combination.
      • Re:It makes them... (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Hal_Porter (817932)

        or people who watch the OC or people who read People Magazine or George Bush


        But Mischa Barton is hot,

        http://images.google.com/images?q=mischa+barton&hl =en&safe=hellno&boobies=yesplease&tits=showmedamni t [google.com]

        and George Bush is a good read.

    • "Intellectually, I'm curious what that makes the rest of them."
      MySpace users

      I was thinking more along the lines of soylent green.

    • Re:It makes them... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by TubeSteak (669689) on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @10:07PM (#15162198) Journal
      "Intellectually, I'm curious what that makes the rest of them."

      I makes them apathetic [reference.com]
      You can sum it up with the words "Don't know & don't care"

      Anti-Intellectualism is a whole different ball game
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-intellectualism [wikipedia.org]
    • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @11:03PM (#15162448)
      Intellectually, I'm curious what that makes the rest of them."

      Future republican presidential candidates.

  • Answer (Score:4, Insightful)

    by DreadfulGrape (398188) on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @09:33PM (#15162050)
    Intellectually, I'm curious what that makes the rest of them.

    In-duh-viduals.
  • by evacuate_the_bull (517290) on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @09:33PM (#15162053)
    i for one welcome our...uhhhhhh
  • by Xeriar (456730) on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @09:34PM (#15162060) Homepage
    They didn't intend any sort of innuendo there. "Intellictually Curious"? ...reminds me of that "Most females are secretly bicurious." study a couple years ago.
  • Errr (Score:5, Funny)

    by HeavensBlade23 (946140) on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @09:37PM (#15162075)
    Wow, 60 million, that's impressive! Until you remember that 60 million is less than 25% of the population, at which point you slit your wrists.
    • See being thrown out of a Vogon airlock for more details.
    • by Feyr (449684)
      that study is obviously flawed, as anyone who has ever done tech support will tell you, the percentage of intelligent people out there is FAR FAR lower than that.
      • Re:Errr (Score:4, Insightful)

        by jc42 (318812) on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @10:19PM (#15162246) Homepage Journal
        ... the percentage of intelligent people out there is FAR FAR lower than that.

        Yeah, but note that the OP said "intellectually curious", not "intelligent". The two are unrelated (and orthogonal) properties.

        A mouse or sparrow can be intellectually curious. But curiosity doesn't guarantee that they can understand what they encounter.

        You can find a lot of people whose curiosity leads them into astrology or religion or a thousand other things that intelligence would lead them to sniff at, discard, then continue looking for something more worthwhile.

        • Re:Errr (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Stalyn (662) on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @11:26PM (#15162563) Homepage Journal
          Yeah, but note that the OP said "intellectually curious", not "intelligent". The two are unrelated (and orthogonal) properties.

          That's not true. All intelligent people are intellectually curious and I would argue all people who are intellectually curious are also intelligent.

          Of course there are varying degrees of intelligence and some will understand more than others. However someone who is stimulated by intellectual pursuits will be more adept than someone who is not.

          Compare it to athletics. Someone who is athletic will have some skill in athleticism. They might not be an athlete but they can still be athletic. As someone who is intelligent does not have to be specifically a genius.

          You can find a lot of people whose curiosity leads them into astrology or religion or a thousand other things that intelligence would lead them to sniff at, discard, then continue looking for something more worthwhile.

          Well there are tons of intelligent people who believe in God but that's a separate matter. People forget that thinking is a skill. Yes, some of us are born with a higher talent for certain kinds of thinking but without rigor and training our thinking becomes soft. It's important that people are given certain critical thinking skills. To be able to analyze ideas in depth. You give someone who finds ideas stimulating a little spark and a simple yet critical set of tools. You'd be surprised with the results.

        • Re:Errr (Score:5, Funny)

          by wildsurf (535389) on Thursday April 20, 2006 @12:38AM (#15162822) Homepage
          Yeah, but note that the OP said "intellectually curious", not "intelligent".

          Remember, there are no stupid questions. But there are a lot of inquisitive idiots.
      • Re:Errr (Score:5, Insightful)

        by TapeCutter (624760) on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @11:08PM (#15162472) Journal
        Calling tech support is the last thing an intelligent person would do.
    • were the result of misspelled Google pr0n searches gone bad!
    • Re:Errr (Score:2, Funny)

      by cplusplus (782679)
      at which point you slit your wrists.
      No! Don't do that! There are so few of us already! The best solution is to breed and bring up our numbers. Oh, wait... it looks like we're doomed to extinction.
      • No- you see now you need to convince the female intellectually curious of this idea. Then you get laid.

        Unless the female's curiosity includes artificial semination.
  • hacking good and bad (Score:2, Interesting)

    by opencity (582224)
    I've always found it interesting that a 'hack' is an insult in music, probably from writing (hack writer), usually meaning someone who plays standard stuff and not very well. A hack in IT refers to a code workaround, and can be good or bad. A hacker (you get the drift ...)

  • Nerds that Matter (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Doc Ruby (173196) on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @09:42PM (#15162094) Homepage Journal
    Intellectual curiosity doesn't make you a geek. Intellectual expertise - in any field or discipline, especially technical - makes you a geek. If you've got the rest of the package, like less physicality, fewer friends, insomnia, "microculture", Aspberger's symptoms, you're just a nerd. If you've got none of those, you're just a "normal". In that case, I feel bad for you.
    • by TubeSteak (669689) on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @10:12PM (#15162223) Journal
      Q: How can you tell an extroverted computer geek from an introverted computer geek?

      A: The introverted computer geek will look at his shoes while he talks to you. The extroverted computer geek will look at your shoes while he talks to you.

      Q: How do you tell if an extroverted computer geek is Russian?
      A: His shoes look at you while he is talking.

      I like my way of telling Geeks apart from everyone else.
    • I disagree.

      Intellectual expertise - in any field or discipline, especially technical - makes you a geek.

      I've ran Linux for a year and a half, code my own website, and am definitely interested in computers. I know HTML, SQL, CSS and I'm learning Perl. I love science fiction. I'm also a senior in college (Poli Sci major), am getting married this summer, had a 4:40 mile in high school, and took an honest-to-god model to prom. According to your definition, I'm not a geek - I don't have expertise in Linux -

      • You know HTML, SQL, CSS and are learning Perl. You're doing so out of enthusiasm. You're a geek.

        Having a love life and an athletic body don't stop you from being a geek. You might not be a Linux geek, but you're a computer geek. You might be a geek, but that's not all that you are. You're intellectually curious, and you've got skills. You're more than just a "readonly geek" - you're a geek.

        What's wrong with that?
      • And I disagree with you.

        I also happen to disagree with the whole "expertise" issue. I would say that true 'expertise' is a 'nerd' factor, not a geek one.

        By your def you are a geek. You know html, sql, css, and bits of Perl. This makes you above 99.9% of internet users. I work as a sys admin/web dev ... mentioning learning html to the college professors that I serve makes thier blood run cold. The article confuses knowledge of science as "geeky" with what it means to be a computer 'geek' these days. Geeks

  • Why should this come as a surprise to anyone? Just check out the number of cable/satellite channels that are Geek oriented: Discover, National Geographic, Science, etc. There has to be a reasonable market for that kind of programming to support this.

    • don't forget that these "geek" programming channels are now full of "pimp my ride" shows. I think every channel on earth has at least one build a bike, pimp a car or similar show.

      OK, you might say that it is geek as well, but I would check who is really watching these... I do honestly, while I do not care about my car, I like to see the technical ones (e.g. tuning stuff), but couldn't care less about stuffing 20 LCD displays and a fountain into the car ....

      Also you see a lot of history related stuff and n
    • Just check out the number of cable/satellite channels that are Geek oriented: Discover, National Geographic, Science, etc.

      Have you noticed the decline in quality of those channels in recent years? Less science, more sensaitionalism, outright fantasy, melodramatic accompanying scores, the list goes on.

      A program about dinosaurs nowadays is going to be 95% CG animation with little basis in reality, and 5% actualy real dionsaur bones with real information about how and where they were found. It's a kids CG cart
  • by JanneM (7445) on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @09:47PM (#15162115) Homepage
    No need to hide anymore! Come out of the closet (it's too small for a soldering station anyhow)!

    Cast your pretensions! Rise and walk proudly from the dark of the TV room into the bright flouerescent of the computer lab!

    No more hiding copies of Make in a cover of Hustler! No more awkward stammering that you were just surfing for gay porn and somehow accidentally stumbled upon perl.org.

    Testify! Say it: "I am Geek, hear me Mumblesomethingintelligleaboutapreprocessororsomet hing!".
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @09:48PM (#15162122)
    I study the rhetoric of science and scientism in grad school. I read slashdot to get away from the television and celebrity gossip that my other colleagues seem to dwell on as "sources for cultural research."
  • by Reality Master 201 (578873) on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @09:50PM (#15162132) Journal
    I figure the proportion from this study was about 25% of Americans can be considered intellectually curious. Frankly, until I went back to school, most of the people I dealt with on a daily basis weren't intellectually curious. Certainly, I'd say the number was under 25%, and that's with a job in computers (programming and consulting).

    Just an observation.

    • Yes, I also wonder this. If you define 'intellectually curious' by being interested in popular science, you might come close. I have to say that I find most 'popular science' articles totally boring with respect to my intellectual curiosity. They usually answer zero of the questions that come to my mind when I have read the introduction.
  • by GoCanes (953477)
    I am curious, but yellow.
  • by wo1verin3 (473094) on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @09:53PM (#15162146) Homepage
    >> "Intellectually, I'm curious what that makes the rest of them."

    Why not create a MySpace account and ask them...
  • Nerd Myopia (Score:3, Insightful)

    by sielwolf (246764) on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @09:54PM (#15162152) Homepage Journal
    What is interesting about the article is how it gets this interesting result and then does nothing with it except to speculate. That they do not share the actual poll questions forces the reader to speculate themselves what they asked. So, yes, we know that they asked if people where intellectually curious about the world around them. But what else?

    Parsing into what the article reveals is a certain "would you talk about science/etc in Social Situation A" (they keep mentioning cocktail parties) or other habits (e.g. what sort of television they watch).

    But the implied conclusion of this article is "more people are geeks; they are just in the closet" which I think is a big leap in logic. And I think this article is very liberal with the terms geek/nerd.

    Personally a "geek" isn't just someone "intellectually curious" but also someone who exhibits Nerd Myopia: they follow their geeky passions at the expense of all others. More so they find all other topics inferior (and will demonstrate subtle vitriol to outright belligerence). The article talks about how the Science and Passion [S&P] group will bring up science topics automatically while the other groups (Money/Success/Science [M/S/S] and Style and Science [S&S]) are interested but unlikely to discuss it. All of these groups are unlike the Other People group in that they would approve of a topic of conversation switching to a geek topic.

    So what about the inverse? The article mentions "Desperate Housewives" and going out and careers. What if a geek topic switched to one of those? I'd suspect the M/S/S and S&S groups would be fine with those too while the S&P would not and probably get angry or dismissive. S&P geeks like their intellectually curious topics at the expense of everything else. All those other non-geek topics are shit and should be treated as such. For geeks "Desperate Housewives" is for secretaries and HR drones. Going out is mentally numb behavior and a scam by the liquor and clothing industries. Career talk is for PHBs. All of those things are commanded by simple deterministic logic of hard sciences. They're all "soft" and defy the ability to rule lawyer and one-up in the perpetual game of nerd battle-of-wills.

    And for all this talk of "in the closet", that's the real barrier keeping people out: rabid intolerance for all things outside geekdom. Geeks, nerds, whatever aren't very big tent in approach. They make their bones by being exclusory. Everyone else is "Other People" and either an enemy or some sheep who can't be trusted to do anything. And attitude like that will keep most of that 40% (and a significant proportion of that 53% of the Science and Passion who are female) at arms reach.
    • Re:Nerd Myopia (Score:3, Interesting)

      by flyingsquid (813711)
      And for all this talk of "in the closet", that's the real barrier keeping people out: rabid intolerance for all things outside geekdom. Geeks, nerds, whatever aren't very big tent in approach. They make their bones by being exclusory. Everyone else is "Other People" and either an enemy or some sheep who can't be trusted to do anything. And attitude like that will keep most of that 40% (and a significant proportion of that 53% of the Science and Passion who are female) at arms reach.

      My general impression i

  • grr (Score:3, Insightful)

    by EngMedic (604629) on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @09:56PM (#15162161) Homepage
    it makes the rest of them sheep.

    Lack of intellectual curiosity is the quickest way to piss me off. Admitting you don't know something, or that what you know is wrong, and then *refusing* to do anything about it makes my blood pressure rise so fast that i have to close my eyes to stop the blood from spurting right on out.
    • Re:grr (Score:5, Insightful)

      by rblum (211213) on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @10:03PM (#15162184)
      I don't know anything about ancient egyptian recipes, and, believe it or not, I could care less.

      Hope the blood starts spurting. In case it doesn't: I'm also not interested in football. At all. Feminine hygiene products? Nu-uh. Understanding ancient germanic dialects? Not really.

      You are, of course, an expert in all of them, or at least strongly inclined to read up on all of them now, right?

      Hopefully, there's a large pool of blood now, and this post takes care of one more self-righteous hypocrite.
      • Re:grr (Score:5, Insightful)

        by LordLucless (582312) on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @10:25PM (#15162273)
        I understand what the grandparent was trying to say, and I'm sure you do too. He just didn't phrase it well enough for it to endure the sort of nit-picking that so often goes on around here.

        The thing that frustrates me is when people want something done, and can't be bothered learning how. The sort of people who say "I know nothing about computers. Can you setup my email program for me?". Now of course, once in a while that's fine. After all, people need a bit of help when they're getting in to something new. But when the same person consistently asks for help, not because they're novices but because it's easier to ask for help than it is to learn to do it your self, that's what gets annoying.
        • by thepotoo (829391) <{thepotoospam} {at} {yahoo.com}> on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @10:59PM (#15162431)
          Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day.

          But, only an intelecutally curious man wants to learn how to fish.
          ...
          Boy, did I just mangle that or what?

        • Re:grr (Score:3, Interesting)

          The sort of people who say "I know nothing about computers."

          I spent over seven years doing telephone tech support. The ones I hated the most were the ones who told me that with pride, as though their ignorance makes them superior to me. I'm sure they thought they were impressing me, and in a way they were right: they were impressing me with how stupid they were.

          • Haha, yes, though, interestingly, they may be on to something. You're paid by them to fix their tech support problem, right? That means that they didn't have to do anything difficult, and were put into a position of power over you.

            Nasty, but true, society is backwards.
      • Curiosity is practical and enjoyable. The little things you learn stick around and work for you.

        I don't know anything about ancient Egyptian recipes, and, believe it or not, I could care less.

        You don't care about beer? Well, OK, you are probably better off for that.

        I'm also not interested in football.

        Me neither, but going to games is fun. Never going to a big SEC game is your loss.

        Feminine hygiene products?

        Once again, your loss. Maxi pads are cheap ways to clean up a big mess.

        An engineer is so

  • Meat (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Intellectually, I'm curious what that makes the rest of them

    Worthless meat. (You can't even sell it!)

  • There are many things out there to learn about besides computers, networks, and hard science.

    Being a technical geek is a little on the narrow side for many folks. Some of the most brilliant people I know do their best work with things like pencil and paper, stringed instruments, needle and thread, or the like. Though I wouldn't consider them geeks, I would say their intellectual curiosity has led them to develop their own talents far beyond what a non-curious mind would be capable of.

    • There are many things out there to learn about besides computers, networks, and hard science

      True, but then there are many more things that would still allow you to be "intellectually curious" apart from these. Examples might include literature, art, philosophy, music, to name just a few "big" topics. I doubt that creative people could be counted as among the non-intellectually curious, usually you have to be in that bracket to be creative. Sitting in front of a TV set isn't creative, though nor is read
  • by gonerill (139660) on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @10:02PM (#15162178) Homepage
    "i-curious."
  • No surprise to me (Score:5, Insightful)

    by RocketRainbow (750071) <rocketgirl&myrealbox,com> on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @10:10PM (#15162213) Homepage Journal
    This is no surprise to me. ANU teaches a course in science journalism on the understanding that more people would like to read about science than sports in the newspaper, if only someone knew how to write about science. With so many interesting new discoveries and new technologies, it's interesting to find out what is going on. Not everyone thinks the science news is the most important news to read, but I've never met anyone who wasn't at least interested to know about the most glamourous or practical news items.

    So why are the numbers so low? Maybe because the people who are most interested in science might not be very bookish, prefer to get their news from the telly and might not even have a computer. The person who most liked to talk about science news to me as a teenager was my school's bus driver and part-time gardener. Many farmers are illiterate and innumerate and resent other people using their brains while they toil like peasants, but generally they love technology even if they hate pure science. The people who are least interested are office workers, public servants and history teachers, whose work is less tangible and feel less connection to science and tech - but they are more likely to be the ones able to seek out internet news sources on their internet appliances.

    Obviously this is just generalisation of my own personal experience, and probably very harsh, but I think it's valid to maybe 70% - I think it explains a lot of those numbers.

    It also occurs to me that you need a certain density of people with a particular interest, otherwise the message doesn't get through that certain websites and communities exist or what jargon to use in order to find them. I didn't find slashdot or even google until I got to university because there was no starting point in the countryside. We got told the "best way" to search, "most respected" websites, etc. at high school, and that was all we had. And since I was the only "odd one out" I had nobody to compare notes with, except maybe my dad, and he lived in a different town 150km away. At that time, the 2nd most popular internet search was music, so I found some wonderful new cultural influences from mp3.com (back when it was relatively free and indie) which was easy, but it was really hard to learn about computers and technology on the internet - I didn't even know what to look for and unless it's related to something I have learnt, I still don't.
  • Intellectually, I'm curious what that makes the rest of them.
    Intellectually curious about something else, perhaps?

    Not all, certainly. But I'm sure that applies to many.
  • by Quirk (36086)
    I'm interested in science, technology, culture and, unfortunately necessarily, politics; but as to... "... a bunch of other people out there who are very interested in science, technology, politics and culture but they don't want to be known as geeks."

    I can't imagine people who have abiding interests in science, technology, culture and politics having an inclination to care one way or another what other people call them. Putting out energy to preen and groom yourself to the dictates of the tribe doesn't j

  • Are you a slashdotter, or just a little I-curious?
  • Sort of in-between (Score:2, Interesting)

    by magnamous (25882)

    Slashdotters are certified geeks, but apparently there's a bunch of other people out there who are very interested in science, technology, politics and culture but they don't want to be known as geeks.

    I'd say I don't really fit either category. I enjoy Slashdot, but I'm not a "certified geek" (assuming that means I know what I'm doing in geeky things, or that I make money off of my geekiness), but I also realize that I am highly geeky compared to much of the population. I don't really care if someone r

  • by Bob9113 (14996) on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @10:50PM (#15162387) Homepage
    Intellectually, I'm curious what that makes the rest of them.

    vi users
  • Even though I lurked a good bit before signing on at /. there was no way I'd ever have gotten a cool, low UID number like 4 digits or less. A 5 digit UID is ah, OK, I guess, but, hey 60,000,000 potential new /.ers and I could be a contender with my low 5 digit user id. I could get modded up for the most vacuous, asdf comments, like, well... this one.

    Taco, think of the potential revenue.

    "News for the intellectually curious, Stuff that matters to your ego."

    Of course the color schemes will have to go; repl

  • by Goo.cc (687626) on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @10:59PM (#15162435)
    "They conclude that 60 million Americans can be called "intellectually curious.""

    Wow, I didn't know that there were that many atheists in the United States. ;)
  • by Infonaut (96956) <infonaut@gmail.com> on Wednesday April 19, 2006 @11:01PM (#15162440) Homepage Journal

    I'm not sure you could find a better article for bringing out latent feelings of superiority among Slashdotters. This is just what we need, another excuse to talk about the differences between "us" and "them." We are smart and inqusitive. They are stupid and lacking imagination. I'm a geek, not a nerd. Geeks are cool, nerds are dorks. Jocks are stupid. NASCAR lovers are stupid. Americans are stupid. The label I apply to my in-group is superior to the label I apply to those outside my group.

    The fact that there are a lot of "intellectually curious" people out there, even if the term is ill-defined, should come as a surprise to nobody. Geeks, nerds, gamers, programmers, hackers, brains, smart kids, rocket scientists, and Slashdot readers are not the only people in the world who are smart, curious, and interesting. Think of it this way, how many non-Slashdot reading people do you know who truly interest you? How many of those people are intellectually curious, imaginative, and full of insight? I know a lot of people who have never even heard of Slashdot and would never imagine themselves as "geeks" but are nonetheless very curious about the world and very stimulating to be around.

    • by suv4x4 (956391) on Thursday April 20, 2006 @03:06AM (#15163278)
      This is just what we need, another excuse to talk about the differences between "us" and "them." We are smart and inqusitive. They are stupid and lacking imagination.

      What I find interesting is that when one Slashdotter jokes about how the rest of the Slashdotter are in deep romantic relationship with their left hand, or how they live in their mom's basement, the rest of the Slashdotters cheer him up and pat him on the back in agreement, and mod him +5 Funny.

      Is that the result of being intellectually... uhmmm curious?
  • They conclude that 60 million Americans can be called "intellectually curious."

    Total US Population: apx. 299,000,000
    Literacy: 99% male/female age over 15
    US Population within ages 15 - 64: Apx. ~200,500,000

    Apx. 60,000,000 comes out to ~30% so called, "intellectually curious" among US population between ages of 15 - 64.
    Hence, 70% of the population is what you are asking about.

    "Intellectually, I'm curious what that makes the rest of them."

    Potential source of Soylent Green(tm)
  • It's all about branding. You can create these criteria, group people based on them, and label a group "intellectually curious", but doing so makes you a nerd. Since the point seems to be to get beyond the "nerd" label, we can't be creating an un-cool label to replace it, especially when it's longer, more complicated, and not generally understood.

    I propose "sci-curious". Short, chic, descriptive. Of course, it doesn't cover the politics geeks, but they'll just have to get their own term.
  • I have ZERO interest in Linux, other than the ocassional fooling with a live CD for file recovery or Windows password "reset."

    I am intellectually curious, and also ADD, which is why, between /., Digg, and other tech news sites, I often have 25 Firefox windows open for days at a time.

  • Because this age will be described as the cartesian catch phrase era, I feel that we should stop putting so much weight on words. Some of these "closet nerds" are just regular dudes like me who for whatever reason, diverged off the nerd path one day, but still share the same old interests. I happen to play in a big rock band or whatever, but the truth is, if one of those days 20 years ago I would've dropped the violin for a chemistry set (as I was tempted! Well, further computer research, really... even

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