Lenovo & Customer Perception 472
music_lover writes "According to this article, Lenovo is losing current ThinkPad series customers to HP, Toshiba and other notebook vendors because of customer perception. Apparently, customers don't feel comfortable purchasing from a Chinese PC manufacturer now that the ThinkPad brand isn't supported by IBM anymore. Could this really be perception? Quote: "Despite the overall poor performance, Lenovo has still not gained the mindshare or the respect that the ThinkPads command. In fact, it has, to some extent, alienated ThinkPad's fans and taken a sales hit. In my immediate vicinity, those who owned ThinkPads have now traded up to an HP or a Toshiba. None of them went back to their ThinkPads. After asking for a clarification, I was told, "Who wants to buy things from a Chinese company?" That said, our corporate parent has continued to buy/use Thinkpads; the ones that I've seen do just fine, and they've added new machines and a parternership with AMD.
misconception (Score:5, Insightful)
"Who wants to buy things from a Chinese company?" (Score:5, Insightful)
about 200 million Americans shopping in Wallmart ?
everybody has their price, just some can be bought for less
Because I say so (Score:5, Insightful)
Come on, guys.
Irony (Score:5, Insightful)
Wait a minute... (Score:2, Insightful)
Perception (Score:5, Insightful)
It is misconception. (Score:3, Insightful)
Hope it is misconception. Why would anybody discard a product just because it is from some other country unless there are quality issues.
my $0.02.
PS: No I haven't RTFA. The site is slashdotted.
Re:Irony (Score:5, Insightful)
--Mike
No difference n my opinion.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:misconception (Score:4, Insightful)
This may not be strictly true, but somehow I doubt that corporate accountability in China is better than that in the States...
Surprised? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Perception (Score:5, Insightful)
Lenovo. Well, this "new" (to American ears) Chinese company may have bought the ThinkPad name, but there no IBM. Nosireebob. We need something that stands for quality. A company that would never cut corners. A solid performer that believes in quality over raw profits. Those boys at Hewlett Packard have been around forever and I know that name. It must stand for a good product. So now that IBM, the venerable old company, is not producing laptops, we'll go with HP. Rock solid, I tell you. (Yes everything about HP is tongue in cheek...Thanks, Carly).
This has very little to do with xenophobia, and much to do with brand recognition.
I think you sum up my point well, "... I challenge anyone to find a laptop that isn't made primarily overseas." And yet, we buy them by the landfill-load. It's not about where they're made, it's about what name is on the cover. It's no different than the way be buy cars, clothes, appliances, and consumer electronics. Nobody would buy Lenovo bought Nike people woudn't buy Lenovo athletic shoes - even if they made them in the same Chinese factory.
Probably nothing to do with China, or even Lenovo. (Score:5, Insightful)
The real problem with Lenovo (Score:5, Insightful)
The good thing about Thinkpads is that IBM refused to cheapen the laptops just to get market share. IBM users knew that they were getting a solid notebook with good service and a 3-year warranty. IBM could therefore charge a premium for that. Now that Lenovo is trying to get their products into Best Buy, there is no incentive to build a rock solid machine because nobody is going to buy it because it is too expensive. So the incentive is to build cheap crap that is good enough to get out the door without excessive warranty claims from cheaping out too far.
It's a shame that Lenovo is ruining the Thinkpad brand. I have a Thinkpad and love it but I will have to think twice when it comes time to buy another one.
Re:"Who wants to buy things from a Chinese company (Score:2, Insightful)
My fav features (Score:5, Insightful)
My last laptop (averatec) was the biggest piece of shit ever. It had a notorious power issue and Averatec refused to fix it (or even admit its a common problem). There was no documentation for taking it apart or its layout, and even when I got it apart and found the part to be replaced, Averatec won't sell you parts. I set out to find the perfect simple laptop...
It feels very solid. You can handle it pretty well and it doesn't feel like it's going to break. Not toughbook strength, but still very good. IBM still hosts giant manuals on their site for taking them apart. This was extremely important to me. It seemed like an admission that it's actually ok to take apart your laptop and service it yourself. It's very extensive. I love how there are only 5 screw sizes on the whole laptop and they are all marked. It's such a simple gesture, yet it helps SO MUCH. With my Averatec, I was left with a pile of screws that got mixed up and was impossible to get back together.
As I said, I've got a Levano and not an IBM version. I would say the quality is still there. If you are a corporate buyer, keep buying them until they give you a reason not to. I've had enough problems with Dell's and HP's to know jumping ship to them on a whim isn't going to make things any better.
Re:No, it's because Thinkpads suck (Score:5, Insightful)
That, or they are built like a tank, something that a business would appreciate. I have a circa 1999/2000 I-Series thinkpad. Bottom of the line pretty much. The friend who purchased it new abused the hell out of it (since selling it to me and buying powerbooks, he has broken the powerbook multiple times). Six years later, everything works but the PCMCIA card reader (he dropped it onto its' side with a wireless card installed) and the hinges for the screen take some finessing (it travelled cross country, more then once, thrown into the bed of a truck). The thing is a tank, and if you are travelling, it will outlast anything out there. Sure they are more expensive, but there is a reason.
Color! Brightness! Good keyboards! STYLE.
Maybe it's just me, but I like the plain, black look of the thinkpad, I find it rather sleek. But hey, style is subjective. I also like the look of the powerbook. And in terms of keyboard, I have not used a keyboard on a laptop I prefer to the thinkpad (this includes HPs, Dells, Apples and Toshibas).
It's all Windows underneath the hood, and in all likelihood it's the same hardware as well.
While that may be true, the fact that the "hood" is heavier duty, makes a huge difference.
-dave
You think Thinkpads suck? O-kaaaay! (Score:3, Insightful)
Take the MacBookPro. Pick it up in one hand along an edge. If you can't see the entire damn case flexing, I'll eat my UPS.
I'm not really sure what your experience with Thinkpads was.
My experience was almost universally positive. And the things, while not the greatest gaming systems (Internationa BUSINESS Machines anyone?), were always rock-stable and durable.
Of courst, that COULD just be me. But I pretty much have a circle of friends, co-workers, and colleagues who swear up and down by Thinkpads too. More or less for the identical reasoning.
As for color. I'm not marching in the local GLPP. I'm WORKING on the thing. I don't need neon greeen, or lousy aluminum cases that ding and scratch if I so much as look at the thing. The Thinkpads have a certain stark, no-nonsense style to them, and they definitely make a positive statement about the person using them.
But hey, to each his own. If you want a laptop that looks like it fell out of a box of Fruit Loops, cool.
It's all branding folks... (Score:5, Insightful)
Why do people continue to buy Microsoft software if it's known not to be the best out there?
Why do people eat at McDonalds instead of the mom and pop diner 2 blocks away that serves better burgers?
It's all name and brand recognition. People bought IBM notebooks because IBM had a name behind them, and in many cases also supplied all the bigger infrastructure and server pieces.
Now that same laptop isn't an IBM anymore. Like a high dollar luxury car manufacturer that also releases the same cars produced in the same way, but with a less expensive nameplate on them loses market value.
What used to have a Lexus nameplate on it, now has a Toyota nameplate. And has to complete on a different scale.
Racist technologists? (Score:1, Insightful)
Folks, everyone on the planet has a right to work and pay their mortage. Maybe folks in the U.S. need to consider that our expectations are too high and our tolerance for sweat and strain too low.
As far as the product: I had two IBM Thinkpads before I bought one of the first Lenovo marketed units. It works great and I'm a happy camper.
So, stick to arguing economics and that you want profit to stay in town.
We're supposed to be better than this.
Re:Because I say so (Score:3, Insightful)
Personally, i would only but an IBM laptop, no other machine approaches the quality (maybe apple). I hope they aren't going down the tubes, or I will need to get a T43 - the best of the pre-lenovo crop.
IBM's mindshare (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:It is misconception. (Score:3, Insightful)
>place of a high quality Chinese product. But there are
>plenty of comparably or better built laptops in the
>domestic market.
Name one machine that has all its parts constructed and assembled in the USA, or if you have problems with that name one machine that has no parts in it that originated from China.
Re:Perception (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Because I say so (Score:3, Insightful)
That's the problem, in my uninformed opinion. (Score:4, Insightful)
On the other hand, that's exactly how America was 200 years ago. We undercut everyone with cheap, crappy goods thanks to our abundant workforce and raw supplies, and we built quality goods much later. China will eventually overcome this reputation once they've bootstrapped their economy and their own consumers become more sophisticated and demanding.
Then again, what do I know? I haven't shopped for PC notebooks recently, and I don't know if there's an actual quality decline in Thinkpads instead of a perceived problem due to national origin.
But I LIKE Thinkpads! (Score:2, Insightful)
Doubtful about quality. (Score:3, Insightful)
Some people take those issues very, very seriously and would rather give their money to someone partnering with Taiwan, which indicates it is something more complex than simply being xenophobic. There are very real, very concrete and in many cases extremely valid reasons why people avoid Chinese products when they can.
Re:Irony (Score:3, Insightful)
Let's not forget about the fancy smancy Windows key they put on it.
Argh, the most worthless keys ever added to a keyboard. Whoever invented that complete waste of space that serves no purpose other than to diminish the size of the space/alt/control keys needs to be taken out back and beat to a pulp. Another tragedy of microsoft's innovation at work...
Re:Perception (Score:3, Insightful)
Wow. I know that looks are subjective, but I've never heard anyone call a ThinkPad "ugly" or "clunky" before reading this (and a couple of other postings here -- but there are also a lot of people here who disagree with you).
I've got a T42, and it's sleek (pretty much the opposite of "clunky") and I really like the way it looks. I had a Dell before this -- now that was a clunky and ugly machine. Compared to the HPs and Toshibas that I see in stores areound here, the Thinkpad frankly puts the others to shame looks-wise...
Re:misconception (Score:5, Insightful)
Perception and Misconception (Score:3, Insightful)
The 'misconception' in this situation is two-part. First, Lenovo has, to the best of my knowledge, been building ThinkPads for IBM for at least the last decade or so. Assuming my understanding is accurate, anyone who's ever bought a ThinkPad has already bought a Lenovo-built system.
The second part is the idea that quality will be lower on Chinese-manufactured products. While this is certainly true in many cases (think cheap hand tools), I don't see it happening here because, again, Lenovo has been building ThinkPads all along. Why would they risk damaging their own market, and possible collateral damage to IBM's rep, by starting to cut corners?
'Brand loyalty' is a tricky thing. Advertising companies know this, and I think IBM and Lenovo are learning that all over again. The bitter truth of the matter is that the US has sold off an awful lot of its manufacturing base to China, and other foreign investors, most definitely including computer hardware.
I may not like this trend, but I cannot deny that I have taken advantage of it many times. The motherboards I've been using for the past decade or so (Tyan, usually) were all manufactured in Chinese factories.
Another example: The surround receiver I just bought (Harman Kardon AV635) was designed in the US, but actually built in China. Used to be that H-K built ALL their amps, tuners, etc. right here in the US.
In short: How, exactly, does one AVOID Chinese-made electronics? There are darn few US-based electronics manufacturers left, and most of those are in specialty or 'niche' markets.
Even if an electronic product is made entirely in the US, by a US company, take a look inside. Chances are really good that you'll find transistors from Japan, capacitors from Korea or China, and plastic parts from Lord only knows where.
It's (unfortunately) unavoidable. The whole thing reminds me a bit of a Monty Python animation which shows a secretary drowning in a rising wave of Chinese.
The best anyone can do is what should always be done: Carefully evaluate multiple brands against your requirements, and pick the best one for the job.
Keep the peace(es).
Re:misconception (Score:3, Insightful)
What part of being made in China mandates that it be low price? Perception? Does a crap computer made by Germans somehow work better than a crap computer made by Chinese? Sure, maybe economic and social conditions over there encourage a "low quality, high volume" business plan, but I seriously doubt that the country as a whole is only capable of working that way.
I'm sure they are all made on the same street in China, but that kind of a price difference, combined with the relatively short life expectancy of a computer, tends to push me towards the cheaper models.
You're sure are you? So you have been there and seen it? You have no idea what you are talking about, and your ignorance is even more insulting because you seem to take pride in these ideas. Sure, in aggregate, it may be safe to say that Chinese companies produce low quality products. But to assume from there that Lenovo will produce low quality products is guilt by association, among other kinds of stupidity. I have lost all hope that I will see a week, even a day, go by without someone proving my sig to be right.
Re:It is misconception. (Score:3, Insightful)
and thats the state you are in now. Companies American in name only while most of the work is outsourced to other countries. It is only a matter of time before they start cutting out the middle man. Or worse the US no longer becomes viable to work in and they just up and move to the EU or another country.
After all am I going to buy a US laptop for $4000 or Chinese one for 1/10th the cost. Of course the US might start introducing protectionism to stop its consumers from buying the cheaper stuff (bit like US Steel) but it will do nothing but raise the prices of everything at home and lock you off from possible better products at a comparable price.