The World's Most Modern Management System 235
NeoPrime writes "CNN has a story
about an Indian IT outsourcing firm HCL Technologies, whose president feels
that 'employees come first and customers second.' He further feels
that every employee should 'rate their boss, their boss' boss, and any
three other company managers they choose, on 18 questions using a 1-5 scale.
There is even an electronic ticket system to flag anything they
think requires action in the company.
The company president explains, 'It can be I have a problem with
my bonus, or My seat is not working, or My boss
sucks.' This ticket is then routed to a manager for resolution. The article's argument: India has the most modern management system in the world."
Hmpf (Score:2, Insightful)
This sounds like a PR stunt.
Modern?? (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember the Red Stapler.
Any system which fails to account for the chaos of human interaction and people running amock with their own personal agendas can hardly be called effective, never mind modern.
Arrested Development quote (Score:3, Funny)
Why are we spending so much money on whistles?
Re:Modern?? (Score:2)
Re:Modern?? (Score:2)
Re:Modern?? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Modern?? (Score:2)
Not according to these folk [snopes.com]:
Re:Modern?? (Score:3, Informative)
Also for the record, China is not, and never has been, anything approaching a true communist state. If anything, they're a fascist military dictatorship with a somewhat socialist economic system. A much better example would be Switzerland or
Re:Hmpf (Score:3, Insightful)
Combined with the competitive market I've heard India has for IT employees, I would think this was just the equivalent of another 'perk.' I've heard that recent grads and experienced people in India are in extremely high demand.
Thus you get a market like the IT market in the US during the dot-com boom. Anyone else remember the office pool table and high levels of tolerance for goofing around with a bit of fondness and regret?
When your employees have a high tendency to star
Re:Hmpf (Score:2)
The rare commodity comes first - this is just an admission that he views customers as abundant and talent as insufficient.
A realization which could spell the "peak" of technology outsourcing. As more customers realize there really isn't that much gold in them-thar-hills, outsourcing will slow.
Prediction:
The US trains more people with good IT and English skills than India - therefore a temporary excess of talent in India will be quickly tapped. (This is evidence that this has already occurred.) Moreov
Re:Hmpf (Score:2)
I manage an SCM team for a fortune-15 company and we recently offshored a whole buncha development and regression testing activity to Bangalore. When it started to ramp up, it became pretty clear that having an SCM role in place out there would be an advantage -- we could avoid having to run a 24-7 on-call SCM shop here if we had the right supporting resources on-site and available to our good friends in India.
Re:Hmpf (Score:2)
Re:Hmpf (Score:5, Interesting)
You make an assumption first, indicating that this is an assumption.
And based on that assumption, without verifying or qualifying it further, you make a conclusion: "This sounds like a PR stunt."
I categorically disagree with your conclusion. Personal humility of a CEO is not sought after in the US (despite ground-breaking work by Jim Collins http://www.jimcollins.com/ [jimcollins.com]). If this indeed was a PR attempt, given that their market is the US, they would have chosen a different message.
I work for a company where we rank managers the same way they do. The results are unbelievable for innovation and for employee satisfaction, which in turn leads to more innovation.
It's part of a new school of thought called "bottoms-up" instead of "top-down". Interesting things happen when a non-linear dynamic system (such as an organization) embraces "bottoms-up".http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergenc e/ [wikipedia.org]
I sincerely hope that you and likes of you embrace the new revolution silently going about. Expression, communication and change are no longer a virtue of the powerful, may it be the Government, CEOs of a company or anyone else. Expression, communication and change are now emerging from the masses. Why should a company be any different? You get a whole lot of smart people, give them stock options and let them decided, bottoms-up, where they want to go, and see what happens. $.
Re:Hmpf (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Hmpf (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Hmpf (Score:3, Insightful)
If the company goes under, will it still be considered a success???
Re:Hmpf (Score:2)
Only if you make millions of dollars with your stock options in the process!
*cough* Darl Mcbride *cough*
Re:Hmpf (Score:3, Funny)
Viola: a musical instrument
Re:Hmpf (Score:5, Insightful)
Bullshit. Read the article.
In the US, a suggestion box is a joke. For this guy in the article, only the employees can close out those tickets. Try that under US management.
Face it, folks. US management - 98% percent of it - is based on the military-Catholic Church model: do it or I fuck up your life; in fact, I'll fuck up your life by even asking you to do it. Anything goes wrong, it's your fault; anything goes right, I take the credit. Oh, and get me a cup of coffee while you're at it.
This guy has a better way. And it's working for the company - so calling it a "PR stunt" is just sour grapes that the critic doesn't work there.
Re:Hmpf (Score:3, Insightful)
It is popular now to have 360degree reviews (i.e. you review you boss and those who work for you)
I am confused about how this is new or modern?
Re:Hmpf (Score:2)
It's not rocket science and it's not really a "new management system" - it's just one decent manager for a change. The fact that it's NEWS is what proves the point.
Re:Hmpf (Score:2)
This guy is just a good manager. The only complaint I have about the article is calling what he does a "management system." Technically I suppose it is, but in reality it's just this one guy (and those employees who go along with him.)
The other point people should note is that presumably in India the culture is different than the US and personal behavior is different. I don't know Indian culture that well - most Indians I've seen in the US seem to have really bad t
Re:Hmpf (Score:2)
Sounds great (Score:5, Interesting)
"We all want a raise of $AMOUNT or several of us will make tickets about you"
I know blackmail like this always existed, but not its a lot easier.
Re:Sounds great (Score:4, Funny)
Amazing! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Amazing! (Score:2)
Wait, it was Schwab!
http://lawgeek.typepad.com/lawgeek/2005/11/silly_
Re:Amazing! (Score:4, Informative)
Too late! [uspto.gov]
United States Patent 6,853,975
Dirksen , et al. February 8, 2005
Method of rating employee performance
Abstract
A method of rating employee performance includes: a) receiving a list of nominated raters from the employee, including at least one manager of the employee, a plurality of the employee's peers, and a plurality of the employee's direct reports; b) electronically soliciting and receiving manager approval of the list of nominated raters; c) electronically notifying the approved raters with instructions for rating the employee; and d) receiving employee ratings data from the approved raters, wherein the steps of electronically soliciting and electronically notifying are automated. The process also includes training all users of the system in a manner in which the ratings are calibrated by comparing case studies to specific behavioral examples to provide immediate feedback to the user in a training process which is fully automated.
Re:Amazing! (Score:2)
Re:Amazing! (Score:2)
The article describes what is basically a "trouble ticket" system for the company as a whole and management in particular - and only the employees can close out the tickets.
Try that in the US and most managers would fire the employees.
Interesting notion (Score:3, Insightful)
NOTE: This would presumably apply first to profit generators like consultants and specialists, as opposed to back-office support staff. Still, it's a step forward...
Re:Interesting notion (Score:2, Insightful)
This resembles the movement of allowing the actual employees of a company define the design of ERP systems rather than management.
Don't forget, management does see the big picture, at the cost of the intricate details that may be pushing the company forward. That is why there is a need for multiple levels of management. And this b
Re:Interesting notion (Score:2)
If you have unhappy employees, you will not long have happy customers. When your boss spends the day yelling at you, you're going to pass that bad mood on to the next person you deal with, be that person a coworker or customer. On the other hand, if your work is something you actually enjoy and you are provided a good environment, your ability and willingness to do that "little extra" that keeps them coming back again and again will always be there.
Note to self...never advertise "customers second" (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Note to self...never advertise "customers secon (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Note to self...never advertise "customers secon (Score:2)
Ever heard of Costco? (Score:2)
Employees come first, Customers second and Vendors third.
Wiki has some info and links to articles [wikipedia.org]
And the NY Times Article [nytimes.com]
Re:Note to self...never advertise "customers secon (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Note to self...never advertise "customers secon (Score:2, Informative)
It would be great, provided it can be that simple. Unfortunately it seams that other factors [time.com] played much more important (or maybe the most important) role in making Southwest profitable [house.gov]: "It is interesting to note that, without its fuel hedging program, Southwest Airlines would not currently be making a profit." That's how it is...
Re:Note to self...never advertise "customers secon (Score:2)
In the first example his complaint would be the food sucks. A person who regularly eats a variety of steak well done would still be able to spot the bad product you started with.
People often complain about customer service calls being answered from India. Maybe this
Re:Note to self...never advertise "customers secon (Score:3, Interesting)
Of Steak and Service (Score:4, Insightful)
What you probably fail to realize if that the chef (and the waiter you later mention) are in what's known as a "service organization" and as such their entire goal should be to "serve" their customers. Unfortunately your attitude is not at all uncommon; it's really leading to the decline of society in a number of subtle but important ways, but I digress.
Yes, some customers are morons, who don't know any better, and they would actually appreciate you letting them know that this is really not what you recommend. But others (non-morons) might make the same well-done request for non culinary reasons. Very few of these non-morons would be insulted if you gave an unsolicited recommendation that rarer is better, so that part is fine; and yet they may still decline to accept your recommendation and request it well-done anyway.
Now, your precious talents are not being wasted, and you as the chef have no place taking out your pent-up frustrations on your customers. Use your vast talents to create the best damn well-done steak you can. Be proud of your ability to improvise under adverse conditions. You are there to serve your customers, not to showboat as a whining elitist.
Yes, there are pretentious snobs who think this crappy service attitude adds a degree of class to the establishment. And the customers who prefer the same may even be willing to pay a premium for it. But ultimately this is a self-defeating attitude, as you will eventually lose sight of the fact that customers are occasionally (not always) right, and if you can't respectfully disagree, you're not going to be in business very long.
There are many "great chefs" in the IT industry (and elsewhere) ready to take your place, many of whom can actually be bothered to care about their customers more than themselves.
Re:Of Steak and Service (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually, as a vendor, you also get to choose your customers, which basically means turning away some people/companies that you don't wish to have as customers. Usually, companies limit this to those customers that are "high maintenance" and low revenue. If he's that good at cooking steaks, he may have the luxury of turning away customers who don't like their steaks the way he thinks they should be made.
All that's necessary for him to win is to be so good in every other aspect of his business that he can afford the loss of those customers he turns away. Think "soup nazi" from Seinfeld (for a fictional example).
But businesses in service industries are not there to serve everyone without making any judgements. At least, not the great businesses. That kind of a business model inevitably leads to "lowest common denominator" service and my dollars will go looking for the better (and opinionated) chef in short order.
There are many "great chefs" in the IT industry (and elsewhere) ready to take your place, many of whom can actually be bothered to care about their customers more than themselves.
This example is particularly bad. Your IT customer says they want X. You know that X will not do what they need and will cost more than they should be paying for Y. Do you insist on Y or do you accept your pay for X and walk away when "what they asked for is not what they needed"? I say it's a sleazeball who actually takes the customer's money for useless services.
And you're right that there's another sleazeball around the corner to take their money, but at least it won't be me taking that ill-spent money and tarnishing my reputation as a result.
Regards,
Ross
Re:Of Steak and Service (Score:3, Insightful)
If he's that good at cooking steaks, he may have the luxury of turning away customers who don't like their steaks the way he thinks they should be made.
Right, I wrote about this exactly, including your "Soup Nazi" example. It can undeniably work, at least for the short term, but ultimately I believe it fails. We'll probably have to agree to disagree on the long-term viability of the model, but
Re:Note to self...never advertise "customers secon (Score:2)
Re:Note to self...never advertise "customers secon (Score:2)
Re:Note to self...never advertise "customers secon (Score:2)
Thanks for the culinary lesson, Chef Asshat.
Modern? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Modern? (Score:2)
Any way for lower level managers and employees to escalate problems, issues and suggestions above their immediate supervisor is a good thing. It only becomes good management if there is someone at the top that can sort thin
Ticket #000314: My Boss Sucks (Score:5, Funny)
[ ] Open
[ ] Assigned
[ ] Not a bug
[ ] Feature request
[x] Won't fix
[ ] Closed
Well... that's useful.
Re:Ticket #000314: My Boss Sucks (Score:2)
Ticket status:
[ ] Open
[ ] Assigned
[ ] Not a bug
[ ] Feature request
[ ] Won't fix
[x] By Design
[ ] Closed
Re:Ticket #000314: My Boss Sucks (Score:2)
Like Pirsig said: a question of values.... (Score:5, Insightful)
The corporate mentality in the 'west' mandates return on shareholder assets. What's missing is that employees are an organization's best assets.
That said, the propaganda machines are simply turning out fodder for an easily duped press. Twenty years ago, Japanese companies were the best run, and we know the end of that story: stagnation and dissatisfaction at virtually all levels, and an economy full of bad debt.
India has a long way to go, as do we all. But calling then 'best' in the context of the article is to succumb to a clever marketing person's pitch to a gullible editor. Go there and find the truth. It's not what's described.
Re:Like Pirsig said: a question of values.... (Score:2)
Sigh...
An employee is not an asset. He is neither owned nor acquired. He neither depreciates nor amortizes. An employee is *PART OF THE COMPANY*, and is investing labor just like the shareholder is investing money.
I don't hear people talking about shareholders as a company's "asset", though the case is probably a little stronger than for employees: money is money, and so shareholders are largely replaceable. An employee can't be replace
You're mincing terms: employees are assets... (Score:2)
Satire (Score:2)
For some reason, that reminded me of this:
http://www.satirewire.com/news/0105/loyal.shtml [satirewire.com]
Re:Like Pirsig said: a question of values.... (Score:2)
I have some sympathy for your post as a whole, but the relative problems of the Japanese economy must be put into perspective. Given Japan's lack of natural resources, their economic performance from 1950 through 1985 was truly remarkable. They benefited from a homogeneous and disciplined workforce, management with generally lo
Suuuuure (Score:2)
Only one way to success (Score:3, Funny)
Thats the only true way to get employees to be more productive and happier, all at the same time.
Re:Only one way to success (Score:2)
Fun Shirt Fridays!!
People are now starting to compete with me for the wow factor, but I have some neon green hawiian shirts that beat just about anything...
Could work... (Score:2)
In my daily life I am part of a 2 person IT department, and my manager has no background in computers or technology at all... I'd love a system like this but I'd just be submitting it directly to her and that most likely would be where it would end... along with my employment.
Ineptitude is the norm at most U.S. business and at all levels.
Re:Could work... (Score:2)
Since these are obvious, don't you think there might be a deterrent effect --- each side afraid to abuse their status because the other side might abuse it, too?
Wrong Article Title (Score:5, Funny)
Suggested Title : India discovers Government.
Customers second? My ass... (Score:2, Insightful)
I'd enter this industry just to compete with this knucklehead. Imagine getting to come in with your sales team after the first team just told the prospect that their needs are not your companies' top priority. Buh-bye.
You want other players in other industries where employees come first and customers come second? Try GM in the auto industry, or United in the airline industry. Do they make/do anything you would willing buy? Didn't
Re:Customers second? My ass... (Score:4, Insightful)
Your examples are unions, i.e. worst-case examples of management/employee relationships. How about Costco or Southwest Airlines? Both of those actually said that they put employees ahead of customers (pretty much preventing a union from ever forming). And yes, they do make/sell/provide things that I willingly buy.
Personally, as an entrepreneur, I'm sold on the idea. My customer service employee knows that if there's a disagreement between him and a customer, I'm going to go to bat for him. The customers are almost always satisfied, possibly because he's happier and more comfortable in his job. Also he's more likely to be here in next year or five, which costs me a LOT less in training and recruiting.
I'd enter this industry just to compete with this knucklehead. Imagine getting to come in with your sales team after the first team just told the prospect that their needs are not your companies' top priority. Buh-bye.
If my sales team actually got to the point of telling a customer this, you're more than welcome to them. As in: we just kicked them to the curb because we weren't getting any value from the relationship and we're hoping that a competitor will get saddled with them while we spend our time and effort on more profitable relationships. We might even provide some sales intel to help get you the sale
Regards,
Ross
Re:Customers second? My ass... (Score:2)
If my sales team actually got to the point of telling a customer this, you're more than welcome to them. As in: we just kicked them to the curb because we weren't getting any value from the relationship and we're hoping that a competitor will get saddled with them while we spend our time and effort on more profitable relationships. We might even provide some sales intel to help get you the sale :)
Potentially the client might be impressed at being told that rather than having your team doing a half-asse
Another Prophet Another Following (Score:3, Insightful)
I can remember TV shows from the 80's that showed a Japanese factory worker alone in a room and armed with a club. The worker would pound on a management, effigy figure with his club. The worker's venting aggression on the effigy management figure was supposedly one of the underlying secrets to the success of Japanese businesses in the international market place.
From suggestion boxes to round tables it's pretty much all been tried in one form or another. Most likely the factors that make for successful operations are myriad and too complex to ever be set in stone.
just my loose change
Automating interpersonal relationships? (Score:3, Insightful)
When I've got a problem with someone, I go talk to them. If I want to know if people have problems, I go talk to them. It's the most efficient, effecive way of carrying out interpersonal relationships.
Geeks and conflict? (Score:2)
I'm a geek who has a little difficulty himself in face-to-face interactions involving conflict, so maybe I can see the other side of this - it may encourage comment and dissent from people in an organization who might otherwise not have the courage to speak, and who might see your more confrontational, in-your-face approach as threatening and bullying. By making it not be a face-to-face thing, it may encourage freer, more open, less emotionally charged discussion of issues that might otherwise fester benea
Re:Automating interpersonal relationships? (Score:2)
Nothing new here... (Score:2)
The book, The Customer Comes Second: Put Your People First and Watch 'em Kick Butt is over ten years old, with the updated second edition [harpercollins.com] still around two years old.
Let Me Rephrase... (Score:2)
What to do... (Score:2)
sheesh. (Score:2)
OK - so there's a 'trouble ticket' that reduces a dozen traditional forms to one.
Otherwise, what's the difference between this and going to a traditional HR dept to complain about your boss, or you boss about your compensation, putting in a work order for a busted chair, or the way things are already done?
Maybe it's simpler - the phone drones are so Americanized that their Indian bosses can't understand them anymore, so they better write everything down? I got
Simpsons did it! (Score:2)
http://www.tv.com/episode/516819/summary.html [tv.com] near the end of the episode.
More yikes from TFA... (Score:5, Insightful)
I dare them to implement tickets that can only be closed by the customer.
Hoo boy. Someone comes in off the street to do phone drone work, and they can hang a manager up indefintely because they don't like the food in sector 24?
Also according to TFA the managers are pretty well vetted & trained, and then have to put up with every whine from a new hire? Think of the hire you've seen that punched a hole in your least expectations in record time and is the low water mark of your work experience - now hand them a pile of tickets that they can use to complain about anything. Anything. Endlessly. And I mean anything. And did I mention endlessly? Is this annoying yet? How about now? Huh? Hello?
Re:More yikes from TFA... (Score:5, Insightful)
for people to figure out who the troublesome employees are.
If someone complains more than is warranted, it is useful for other managers to know
that so they would not accept a transfer.
After a year or two, you could do a report of the top complainers and fire the whole lot of them.
But for now, the TFA says they are concerned about retaining employees.
Re:More yikes from TFA... (Score:2)
Re:More yikes from TFA... (Score:2)
Nayar is also looking to solve a problem that looms large for Indian IT companies these days: Attrition. The best employees are increasingly the hardest to retain. Nayar wants anyone who leaves for a job elsewhere to end up frustrated.
Although India has a lot of people, I wouldn't be surprised if they still didn't have enough people who can do high-end technical work.
Elsewhere in the article, they said this company was implementing one of CISCO's products as part of a
"shared risk" contract.
personal experience. (Score:2)
In response it seems that significant raises are only given when you walk in the door with an offer letter from somewhere else.
People who don't fill out a single thing on the employee input section of their review forms get just the same as people who put in volumes on what they've accomp
This explains it (Score:2)
I guess this explains why their tech support sucks.
A bad idea... (Score:2)
-BUT-
It's built on a colossally bad idea. The customer
What needs to happen is the customer comes first, and the employee second.
Philosophy vs. Culture (Score:2)
Customers second? Indeed. (Score:2, Funny)
Well, this certainly explains my experiences with Indian companies.
JobVent.com (Score:2, Informative)
Double standards... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Double standards... (Score:2, Insightful)
Most 'modern'? (Score:2)
Gasp! (Score:2)
That tears it!
Austin Powers? (Score:2)
"Or sometimes not at all, baby, yeah!"
management du jour (Score:2)
I've worked in environments where employees evaluated their bosses and it didn't (and doesn't) work!
The shortest distance between an employee and a dead-end career move is negative feedback about his boss. Note that this never works even if the following precautions are taken:
(Sorry, thought I was a
Forward Looking Management (Score:2, Interesting)
This makes complete sense... (Score:2)
A culture-evolution tool (Score:2)
Basically, you implement a massive feedback system and use it to improve the employee/company experience. In short, it's something forcing people to interact, albeit through tickets - it's a culture-development tool. It helps quickly make a corporate culture by upping some forms of communication.
I'll guess that after a few hundred tickets, managers and employees ju
Re:The $10,000 question (Score:2)
Assuming the employees in general are spectacularly competent to manage operations, spectacularly aware of the high-level complexities of running a profitable call center, and spectacularly inclined to look at the big picture, rather than merely their own little corner of disgruntlement.
Not that the employees won't have some good and insightful suggestions, mind you. I just suspect that the awsome and asshat will cancel each
Re:upside down? (Score:2)
Re:What a great ad "Our customer come second" (Score:2)
Re:Booo! booo! (Score:2)
Re:Unmanageable (Score:2)
Funny ... that's the same problem that most other "normal" companies face anyway!
Quite aside from the fact that, while modern management might say "the customer comes first" (and sometimes, second and third as well), what they really practice is usually something along the lines of "the shareholders come first, the board's remuneration and
Re:Dr. Howard! Dr. Fine! Dr. Howard! (Score:2)