Boot Camp Flaw Leaves Some Users Fuming 391
Karl Cocknozzle writes "Some users who chose to install Apple's recent beta-offering of Boot Camp without basic precautions (like a full backup) have found themselves unable to boot their Macs to OS X. In a discussion thread on Apple's technical support Web site, more than a dozen users reported that Boot Camp successfully partitioned their hard drive and allowed them to install a working version of Windows, but then would no longer allow them to switch back. The download-agreement page for Boot Camp contains the explicit warning that Boot Camp is still 'Beta' software, and would not be supported if problems arose. On the whole, it sounds like the number of affected users is quite small, but may reflect a common lack of knowledge of what a 'beta' release really is: Not ready for prime-time."
And this make the news? (Score:3, Insightful)
And people, people, please figure out what a beta is... sheesh.
Re:And this make the news? (Score:3, Funny)
You mean this isn't like Google beta?
Re:And this make the news? (Score:2)
Re:And this make the news? (Score:5, Informative)
I also never put my (multi)bootloader on the master boot record because Windows kills that any time you do an install. It's better to put it on another partition and then set that partition to be bootable.
KNOPPIX CD's and similar are a great help for fixing a dorked up install.
Re:And this make the news? (Score:5, Interesting)
a)Windows overwrote the MBR and doesn't know how to boot any other OS
b)Linux or other bootmanager overwrote MBR and doesn't know how to boot windows (this is far less common nowadays but we all remember when it was huge problem)
or
c)You chose to install the linux boot manager NOT in the MBR, and the windows boot manager in the MBR takes precedent, so you reboot and go right in to windows.
With Boot Camp this is different, apple is emulating BIOS inside their own EFI boot manager, so the windows bootloader has no chance of ever affecting the OS X install. This is a bug in apples boot software that is affecting apples OS, not some other OS's software affecting another OS.
Re:And this make the news? (Score:3, Informative)
From TFM:
Re:And this make the news? (Score:2)
Re:And this make the news? (Score:2)
Quite well when you ran Windows in a Desqview window.
Ffrom TFAS:
Re:And this make the news? (Score:2)
Well, you'd think that this is the point when Boot Camp come into play.
If Windows XP is just supposed to screw up OS X, why are they releasing it in the first place?
Nah, this is an unintented bug in Boot Camp, nothing more.
Ubuntu dual-boot whiner, where art thou? (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe if he reads this, he'll realize that things can ALWAYS go wrong when installing a second OS, even on the reputedly uber-stable and very homogenous Mac platform.
Re:And this make the news? (Score:2)
Re:And this make the news? (Score:3, Insightful)
I enjoy slamming on MS as much as the next guy, but lets at least be realistic about where the problem most likely lies.
Re:And this make the news? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:And this make the news? (Score:2)
Time to break out the Terminal.
Re:And this make the news? (Score:2)
back when I took software engineering the definition I was given for beta was: has major bugs but will not lose user data. Sounds to me like boot camp is still in alpha.....
By that definition some types of software can never be beta, let alone GM. Firmware, disk utilities, and partitioning software always has a risk of losing data. When combined with user error, most software can cause loss of data. The majority of the problems we've seen fall into one of the above.
Anyway, the definition of beta at t
New Ellen Fleiss Ad (Score:5, Funny)
And then, like, half my operating systems were gone. And I was, like,
It was a really good operating system, you know?
So I had to install OS X all over again.
It was, kinda
I'm Ellen Fleiss, and I'm an early adopter.
Re:And this make the news? (Score:5, Insightful)
It sounds from the article like it doesn't lose data. The complaining users are saying things like this:
There's no data loss here. He can restore the system using the commandline but won't because he refuses to learn. He shouldn't be using beta software.
Your college definition of beta is oversimplified, anyway:
Re:And this make the news? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:And this make the news? (Score:3, Interesting)
Welcome to windows, suckers! ha ha ha! (Score:5, Funny)
Anyhow, it is unfortunate, and hopefully it will be fixed shortly.
I wonder... (Score:5, Interesting)
Not that simple (Score:5, Informative)
From reading the posts at the Apple discussion forums [apple.com], it looks like the problem has something to do with the partitioning and/or a corrupted swapfile.
OK, I'll grant that some mac users are as dumb as you are implying, but if you read the thread I posted above, you'll see that not all of the people with this problem are complete idiots.
Re:I wonder... (Score:4, Informative)
Early adopters get burned again (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Early adopters get burned again (Score:2)
I think among the average user these days the term beta has lost it's original meaning. The days when "backup before installing beta software" was common sense are apparently long gone.
Re:Early adopters get burned again (Score:2)
being only able to boot into windows (Score:5, Funny)
Turning on your shiny new iMac to see it boot into windows no matter what you do.... the horror!
Re:being only able to boot into windows (Score:2)
Fuming? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Fuming? (Score:2)
Re:Fuming? (Score:2)
Almost. Anyone know how to say "downloader" in Latin? How about "Beta-user"?
Re:"Download" in latin (Score:2)
Great day in the morning. What once was lost now is found.
I thought [Latin] was extinct.
Boot Camp vs. XOM (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Boot Camp vs. XOM (Score:2)
XOM is likely to cause more problems then Boot Camp.
Re:Boot Camp vs. XOM (Score:2)
It Just Works (Score:3, Funny)
Beta software is buggy? (Score:5, Funny)
After reading this thread, I was totally amazed at how many of the people didn't bother to back up their disk before installing something that alters your system's hard disk partitions. Duh. What do you expect?
Re:Beta software is buggy? (Score:2)
Re:Beta software is buggy? (Score:3, Insightful)
"I don't think that word means what he thinks it means!"
Re:Beta software is buggy? (Score:5, Informative)
Don't forget that if you bother to read the install guide (or at least the first paragraph that is highlighted with and labeled "Warning:") Apple tells you to not only back up before trying Boot Camp but also to back up often WHILE USING it.
Re:Beta software is buggy? (Score:3, Funny)
Please read before you install.. (Score:5, Insightful)
At least with these guys they have the option of doing an erase and install to restore their software to the way it was before. Some people are not able to boot their computers any more without using the firmware restore CD.
Please, please, please, before trying this type of stuff, RTFM...
Re:Please read before you install.. (Score:2)
Although this does seem like a PITA, it does entirely seem recoverable without too much hassle. Macs come with bootable CDs, so reboot, hold down the c key, use disk utitility to create a dmg of your existing OS X data. Reinstall OS X, DND your old junk, click OK on overwriting files, you should be OK to where you started in a while. Optionally resize your partition with Disk Utility if you don't want a partitioned drive.
I remember doing things like that with fips, lilo, and company long ago. It took m
Re:Please read before you install.. /flamebait :-p (Score:2)
Seriously, though - this is what happens when a highly-publicized beta falls into the hands of people that probably shouldn't have access to it - one of the comments from the article illustrates the point nicely, I think:
"I don't want solutions that entail using the command line. I would like something from Apple saying that they recognize the problem and are working on it." (emphasis mine)
WTF?
Switch. (Score:2)
It overwrote my MBR. It was a really good MBR.
Switch [robotcombat.com].
Dude? (Score:2)
Google's Fault (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Google's Fault (Score:2)
Perhaps we shouldn't be too surprised that users who are accustomed to drag and drop software installs might not be able to handle wrangling beta software that works at such a low level.
Re:Google's Fault (Score:2, Funny)
Google Beta? (Score:5, Funny)
I take it Karl doesn't [gmail.com] work [froogle.com] for [google.com] google [google.com]?
Wow (Score:2)
Please tell me that Boot Camp at least *suggested* doing a backup before beginning.
Re:Wow (Score:2)
I guess this just demonstrates how much (blind) faith some people place in Apple.
Such a minor number...and yes, beta (Score:2)
Couldn't they just replace some chip, or would the whole motherboard (logic board in Apple speak) have to be replaced?
(Now using Google Calendar BETA - hope it doesn't ruin my work laptop
Partitioning (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Partitioning (Score:3, Insightful)
You're blaming the user for file system designers not including the capacity to label partitions so users know what they are.
Of course, if we started asking ourselves why users are always getting confused by filesystems, we might start thinking that the standard hierarchical filesystem is utter crap...
Re:Partitioning (Score:3, Interesting)
So, if you can't bring yourself to blame the users, blame MS, not Apple. It's not a Boot Camp bug, as it's not something that Boot camp could ever fix on its own.
Heh... (Score:3, Interesting)
I just like the fact that it gets stuck in Windows... I mean if you're going to have a bug at least make sure your users aren't stuck in the competitions OS!
Alternative theory... (Score:2, Insightful)
Ok... (Score:5, Interesting)
We're obviously going to hear a lot of that
A more interesting question: Is Google to blame?
Before everyone jumps on me, I mean this: Most people don't know the history of the term 'beta'... so their first exposure to it is through Google (where it is primarily used as a marketing term). To most people, in its context, it is just interpreted as 'new'.
To most people, does beta now just mean 'new'?
I actually blame... (Score:3, Insightful)
This is not the layout or speak of a piece of beta software. It is a marketting page.
The top titles are:
"Macs do Windows, too"
"As elegant as it gets"
"Included Amenities"
Re:I actually blame... (Score:5, Informative)
You mean like the big heading "Boot Camp Public Beta" at the top of the page?
Or are you talking about the first paragraph in the install guide which is highlighted and says:
Warning: Boot Camp Beta is preview software licensed for use on a trial basis for a limited time. Do not use Boot Camp Beta in a commercial operating environment or with important data. You should back up all of your data before installing this software and regularly back up data while using the software. Your rights to use Boot Camp Beta are subject to acceptance of the terms of the software license agreement that accompanies the software.
Bold mine except the word "Warning" which was both bold, a different color and italicized.
priceless quotes (Score:5, Funny)
Re:priceless quotes (Score:5, Funny)
Anyone know the company he works for? I'd like to know what company to avoid.
Re:priceless quotes (Score:4, Informative)
Re:priceless quotes (Score:5, Interesting)
Hi, career software developer! Nice job screwing up something that most non-software developers seem to have had no trouble with! And the fact that you knew it was in beta and are still whining like a little bitch? Priceless!
Seriously, though, I have to say that I think Apple did exactly the right thing in releasing this software, even if it is imperfect. There were too many people determined to dual-boot Windows, and who were willing to do so in "hack" fashion, for Apple to ignore and leave out in the cold. While I'm sure they're still having to deal with support calls on this, I think it would have been much worse had they waited six months while user after user used completely unsupported third-party solutions to get the job done. And, if folks are wary of Boot Camp still being beta, they benefit from the early release as well, in the sense that they now know that Apple is working on a solution that will be available in the next big OSX release. Considering Apple usually keeps their info top secret until actual release, that seems uncharacteristically open of them.
Re:priceless quotes (Score:5, Funny)
Hell's weather man:
Re:priceless quotes (Score:4, Insightful)
Firmware Update, check
Dynamic Repartitioning, check
Dual Boot Windows, check
BETA, check
and he expects it to be impossible to shoot himself in the foot somewhere along the way. Good grief.
Probably selected wong partition in the Windows (ignoring the "big bold print" in the Apple doc), which Apple simply can't prevent without modifying the Windows installer.
Didn't Follow Directions ... ? (Score:3, Interesting)
Apparently the world-will-make-a-better-idiot maxim has been proven right yet again. This sort of a mistake typically isn't even possible on non-beta Apple-provided software; I bet that idiot-proofing is somewhere on the post-beta software development schedule
I wonder if anyone who actually followed the directions closely have this problem.
Re:Didn't Follow Directions ... ? (Score:2)
Beta with no backups? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's BETA folks, means it might break things. Back up your data if you absolutely must play with it.
Hell, back up your data anyway.
1) get free software 2) make demands? (Score:2)
Re:1) get free software 2) make demands? (Score:4, Funny)
As noted, it's BETA software... (Score:2)
Remedy-HFS+ driver for Windows (Score:5, Informative)
Google (Score:2, Insightful)
And we can put this squarely at Google's feet for perverting the meaning of "Beta". Honestly.
Sure, users need to take some responsibility for their actions, and having a clue. But the idea that beta bight be buggy but still basically works just fine is a direct result of Google's perpetual Betaware.
They're idiots... (Score:3, Insightful)
I installed BootCamp on my MBP with lots of free space on the HD. It killed my OS X partition. But I didn't lose anything since I had made a backup. I lost an hour of time but that was it.
Course, now that most things are released as beta software, we should probably think of a new term to really mean beta. People seem to treat beta as 1.0 releases and get mad when things go wrong.
Beta is not always a clear term... (Score:5, Insightful)
Thought it happened to me. (Score:3, Informative)
repartioning (Score:2)
Hmm (Score:2)
C'mon (Score:2)
Anybody who thinks they can install an operating system without taking proper precautions (i.e. backing up a disk or being otherwise prepared for the consequences of messing up an install) deserves what they get.
They propbably nuke the Mac OS X partition (Score:5, Informative)
Re:They propbably nuke the Mac OS X partition (Score:5, Informative)
I agree that having them be different sizes makes for an excellent sanity check.
Apparently don't understand the term "backup" (Score:2)
Really if you are going to mess around with your harddrive partition atleast have your important data backed up, if not the whole drive. Flash drives are cheap and easy to back up data to (if you don't have an other computer handy), as are external usb or firewire drives. [blogspot.com]
B.E.T.A. (Score:2)
Everyones
Technology
Assets
Best I could come up with. I'm under caffeinated today.
Re:B.E.T.A. (Score:5, Insightful)
Backup
Everything
Then
Apply.
that's always worked for me
Unusual Really (Score:2)
It is also unusual that one of Apple's Beta's would be so flaky. Usually they reserve that for release software and then quickly patch it.
While I was under the impression that Apple probably always had Boot Camp up their sleeves, something now tells me that this may have been a rushed effort to prevent too many ille
I almost deleted my Mac partition. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I almost deleted my Mac partition. (Score:3, Insightful)
So its true? (Score:5, Funny)
Windows = Beta Software (Score:3, Insightful)
So, it's perfectly understandable that someone trying to put Windows on a Mac would think Apple means the same thing as Microsoft when it says something is a "beta".
Sheesh!
Re:Well... (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe Apple should have referred to Boot Camp as alpha software.
Re:Well... (Score:2)
Re:Well... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Well... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Well... (Score:2, Insightful)
Steve Jobs as God (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Well... (Score:3, Insightful)
The real problem I've seen lately is companies taking glorified betas (with lots of serious bugs) and passing them off as finished products. Passing off nearly finished products as beta is just fine in my book, by comparison.
Backups (Score:2)
From the article:
"I don't want solutions that entail using the command line. I would like something from Apple saying that they recognize the problem and are working on it."
Lol! I don't want to fix my problem, I want YOU to fix my problem!
First page of instructions (Score:3, Insightful)
"Warning: Boot Camp Beta is preview software licensed for use on a trial basis for a limited time. Do not use Boot Camp Beta in a commercial operating environment or with important data. You should back up all of your data before installing this software and regularly back up data while using the software. Your rights to use Boot Camp Beta are su