An Editorial Melee About Female Gamers 135
SR71 writes "Tom's Hardware has a strong debate between two of its editors in a face-off editorial about female gamers." From the article: "I'm not being puritanical - heck, a while ago I wrote about wanting to see more sex in videogames. Neither is this about being against female gamers. I simply take issue with people falling and fawning over these female gamers, and talking high-mindedly about how professional female e-sports will soon be on a par with the male circuit." The article contans some crass language that may be NSFW.
NSFW (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:1, Redundant)
Re:NSFW (Score:3, Funny)
"Dammit Ma, I told you knock first before barging in!!!"
Re:NSFW (Score:2)
Anyway, the feedback I got was that posers are posers. Girls who play games don't flaunt it for publicity...but attention whores will always be attention whores.
Seemed more like male egos were at question here than any legitimate discussion of girls and games.
Female Gamers are not The Borg. Deal with it. (Score:5, Insightful)
What seems to be getting missed is that female gamers aren't some kind of hive mind. They don't all do the same things, they don't all think the same thoughts. Saying that female gamers are all Suicide Girls or Killcreek posing in Playboy is just as inaccurate as saying that all male gamers are like Comic Book Guy and spend their entire day shooting off their mouths on forums like Tom's Hardware. It may be true for a handful of people, but that doesn't make it so for everyone.
This article may have some shocking revelations if you are a man whose only exposure to the opposite sex has been through the "Babes of E3" calendar, but other than that it strikes me as a lot of hot air. Hot, smelly, air that could use a bath and a few hours out of its parents' basement.
Re:Female Gamers are not The Borg. Deal with it. (Score:5, Funny)
Or Slashdot.
Did you read the same article I did? (Score:2)
The pro-gaming insider thinks so. The mag-editor OTH thinks its a matter of the right groups of females teaming up in the first place.
I tend to agree with the latter. The status quo will only change when a female team (or GASP, a coed team) emerges that competes well enough such that it would be illogical to cover the female members on their own m
Re:Did you read the same article I did? (Score:5, Insightful)
That not only leads to more talented players being passed over for not having "The Right Stuff" inside of their sweaters, but also creates a hostile environment for everyone. Why even bother trying to compete when you know that you're never going to be judged fairly?
Re:Did you read the same article I did? (Score:2)
Right... (Score:2)
It shouldn't matter. If a chick in a coed team creams a top seat in a tournament, you don't think she'd get coverage even if she wasn't a looker?
If the tourneys were co-ed, then image wouldn't need to be a pre-requisite for sponorship, just skills.
I mean, isn't this the internet? Where no one knows your a dog until they meet you in person?
Re:Did you read the same article I did? (Score:2)
It's not just men who are attracted to a pretty face, and all the feminist rage of all the embittered and abused women in the world isn't going to
Professional Gamers? (Score:2)
Why isnt anyone more concerned with the constant video game images of either the helpless damsel in distress, or the sex object in her "armor plated battle thong" and her "enchanted DD breasts of gravity defiance"
Whatever these "Professional Gamers" like to fawn over at conventions is really the saddest moot point possible. How about a
Re:Female Gamers are not The Borg. Deal with it. (Score:2)
Thank you. Thank you very much.
Re:Female Gamers are not The Borg. Deal with it. (Score:2)
Re:Female Gamers are not The Borg. Deal with it. (Score:2)
OMG Sexism (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:OMG Sexism (Score:2)
Re:OMG Sexism (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm sorry if I offend anyone, but people need to stop deluding themselves. Through out history there has been no objectively judge competition where women have been able to regularly hold their own against men. This does not mean men are better than women as a whole, just at those things that can be objectively judge. The flip side is I am farily certain that women would win hands down if there was a way to objectively judge child raising, and we already know they trounce men in the child bearing arena.
My point is, men an women are different, and we should all stop getting pissed off when someone points out that one gender is better than another at a certain thing.
Oh, besides that e-sports would still require fast reflexes, hand-eye coordination and spatial judgement, all of which are know to be better in men.
Re:OMG Sexism (Score:2)
Re:OMG Sexism (Score:1, Informative)
Scientific study does not seem to support your conclusion.
The Following is from the abstract of Gender differences in choice reaction time: evidence for differential strategies. [nih.gov]
The Following is taken from A Literature Re [clemson.edu]
Re:OMG Sexism (Score:1)
Re:OMG Sexism (Score:1)
Re:OMG Sexism (Score:2, Interesting)
But... women have the GREAT EQUALIZER.... (Score:2, Interesting)
Forget female gamers, how about developers? (Score:5, Interesting)
How about it? (Score:2)
Tom rides Cari-Begle's Rocket
and voice:
Humiliation!
Every chick would love that, right?
The term "Gamer" doesn't need a discriptor (Score:5, Insightful)
All this talk about how to cater to one group or the other is a waste of breath IMO. Targeting any one of those groups will probably net you around 30% of that group, but it will disinterest or piss off the other 70% of that group, along with all the other groups. Where as if you just quit worrying about it, and make a good game that's enjoyable, and fun to play, you'll end up getting a larger portion of all the groups playing your game.
My point is that most gamers, regardless of sex, race, creed, or any other factor, like playing good games. A company attempting to target a game at any specific group is just covering the fact that they're not really sure how to make a good game, so they're going to try to hoodwink some group into buying their game because "It's made for them, by them"
Re:The term "Gamer" doesn't need a discriptor (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The term "Gamer" doesn't need a discriptor (Score:2)
So I suppose more specificaly, it's irrelivant to try to focus based on biological/sociological differences. It's much more fruitful to focus based on a genra. So maybe "gamer" does need a qualifier, but it shouldn't b
Re:The term "Gamer" doesn't need a discriptor (Score:2)
And different gamers like different games (Score:2)
No matter what the game, you'll never hook every gamer, even every game of a given demographic.
Re:The term "Gamer" doesn't need a discriptor (Score:1)
Re:The term "Gamer" doesn't need a discriptor (Score:1)
Custom computer : $1500.00
Internet connection: $40.00
#game and online subscription: $50.00
Totally P0wning that MCP from accounting and ccing the screenshot to EVERYBODY:
priceless
Re:The term "Gamer" doesn't need a discriptor (Score:2)
Your math is wrong. It only costs $20 for a frisbee and some day-glo blue paint.
Re:The term "Gamer" doesn't need a discriptor (Score:1)
Businesses operate to make money, and all decisions must serve this goal. Considering yesterday's article [slashdot.org] about Wal-Mart's influence and the success of "redneck" games, it makes more sense for small studios to channel their limited resources to a sure thing, like niche gaming. Identifying and catering to a target audience (ie, hoodwinking) is the path to money, and that is what they want.
Could the author be any more redundant? (Score:2)
Granted, I tend to agree with him, but usually I only have to say things once (or maybe twice to my kids) ... not six times.
Re:Could the author be any more redundant? (Score:1)
doh! (Score:2)
Actually, I didn't. Oops. Good call.
I guess I should have -- the clues were all there. The title said `melee', there were two names listed as the author, each page had a name or initials at the top (and I never noticed that they changed), the first page had one guy addressing the other guy, etc.
Of course, it didn't help that the two seemed to agree about everything.
Oh well, I guess that's what I get for posting before I'm fully caffienat
No, no, no... don't ask any women (Score:5, Insightful)
Instead we get lame, slightly misogynistic speculation.
Re:No, no, no... don't ask any women (Score:1)
Re:No, no, no... don't ask any women (Score:1)
Come to think of it though, I wouldn't mind seeing that either...
Re:No, no, no... don't ask any women (Score:2)
Re:No, no, no... don't ask any women (Score:1)
Re:No, no, no... don't ask any women (Score:3, Insightful)
The majority of what I consider "female gamers" aren't like that, but silent majorities often get ignored.
*I find these far more annoying. I run into them all the time both online and off; they always rave and drool over some chick in a skimpy
Re:No, no, no... don't ask any women (Score:1, Interesting)
While whining about camwhores, what is done? They put up scantly-clad women or fake women on every page. In the body of the text and the linked-to blog they basically talk-down women for choosing to use their bodies to sell themselves (s
Re:No, no, no... don't ask any women (Score:1)
Re:No, no, no... don't ask any women (Score:1)
"E-sports?" (Score:2, Funny)
Just out of curiosity, what is "male e-sports" (dear God, what a horrid neologism) supposed to be "on par with?" News flash to the editor posting from his parents' basement: no activity that can be accomplished while eating a bag of Cheetos qualifies as a "sport."
Why the hell... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Why the hell... (Score:2)
Gaming industry has set the expectations (Score:4, Insightful)
Perhaps, in the gaming industry when it comes to women gamers, looks *are* valued more than gaming ability. Maybe if the gaming industry really did value gaming ability first and foremost when it comes to both men and women gamers, then overall women's gaming ability would improve. Obviously, as evident by the amount of money and attention spent on hot gamer girls, the industry panders to looks at the expense of ability when it comes to women gamers. If the industry wants better women gamers then that's where it should put the money and attention.
Until that happens, why should hot gamer girls with moderate skill improve their gaming ability if it's not required of them in order to achieve whatever it is they want to achieve (publicity, advertising/modeling contracts, etc...)? For some women, capitalizing on their looks and sexuality is what works for them so more power to them. It's their choice and right to do so.
The real question is, why does the gaming industry have a double standard where skill is valued in men gamers and looks valued in women gamers? Most likely it's because men make the games and they like looking at pretty girls so that's sets the tone for the industry as a whole.
All that said, I am a woman gamer and enjoy playing games. For me, the entertainment is in playing, not competing, and to be honest with you, I get bored after an hour or 2. My fingers get cramped and my eyes get tired and no, I'm not willing or interested in spending 4+ hours a day to figure out the exact key mash that will give me the secret power boost at the beginning of a race as opposed to my boyfriend who is driven to play and compete online which is fine, I just prefer to do other things, unless it's Tetris, I can play Tetris for 5+ hours at a stretch.
The incentive system to compete online and achieving a high ranking to earn rewards and points drives my boyfriend to keep going but are moot when it comes to me. Maybe there needs to be a different incentive system for women gamers to entice them to achieve a higher level of ability, I don't know.
Or maybe it's ok that there aren't professional women gamers.
- tokengeekgrrl
Re:Gaming industry has set the expectations (Score:3, Insightful)
I raised the point that there will always be women who will exploit their female gender to get ahead as long as males make it so easy to do. Most men are ridiculously gullible for a woman who knows just what to do. (The same also applies in reverse.) So as long as it's easy for one side to exploit the other, they're going to do that.
If that means that women gamers who are attractive
Re:Gaming industry has set the expectations (Score:2)
To expand on your thoughts regarding women and competition, women can and often are competitive in specific areas in which they choose to be. I'm sure there are some women who are competitive in gaming and would love to compete professionally. I know plenty of guys who are competitive about gaming and others who see it as entertainment and are not competitive about it. All women and men who play games share just that fact, t
Re:Gaming industry has set the expectations (Score:2)
Re:Gaming industry has set the expectations (Score:2)
For an example, get together a mixed-gender group of people, and assign them two two random groups, just for random's sake, let's put all the females in one group, and all the males in the other group.
Now, tell each group to come up with as many things as they can think of that the other gender does that confuses them.
The women will immediately begin colla
Re:Gaming industry has set the expectations (Score:2)
This is the line I'm trying to draw.
I am not intending to say that women have no competitive drive.
Re:Gaming industry has set the expectations (Score:2)
Am I the only one here who read this sentence and then decided that the rest of this post has no redeeming value whatsoever?
God, if you're going to do the obligatory "Marry me!" Slashdot post, be honest about it! (Hint: Not all women are in to misandry. Really!)
Re:Gaming industry has set the expectations (Score:2)
Try this on for size. Maybe it's not a "Marry me!" Slashdot post. Maybe I'm being honest in my opinions and heartfelt in my statements.
I placed the "seeming" (should have been "seemingly") in the statement in order to indicate more of a subjunctive mood, and less of of an indicative one. Thus rendering my point-of-view, and opinion, rather than a statement of fact.
You'
Re:Gaming industry has set the expectations (Score:1)
"Women seemingly spend all their time preening over their looks, are seemingly ditzy, and seemingly make horrible drivers."
"Black people seemingly spend all their time sitting on a front porch eating watermelon."
"Jews seemingly control all the banks in the world."
Simply because
Re:Gaming industry has set the expectations (Score:3, Funny)
How's that for misandrony?
Re:Gaming industry has set the expectations (Score:1)
Re:Gaming industry has set the expectations (Score:2)
I won't apologize you fucking penis-wielding asshole. You men make me sick.
Would it help if I had breasts?
More like grow a vagina and grow up.
Re:Gaming industry has set the expectations (Score:2)
Re:Gaming industry has set the expectations (Score:2)
It's pretty obvious to me that we were having a discussion, that's all, one that is actually related to the topic at hand as opposed to your post which doesn't add anything to the discussion whatsoever.
And for the record, my boyfriend can attest to my not being interested in misandry just as I can attest that he is not interested in misogyny.
- tokengeekgrrl
Re:Gaming industry has set the expectations (Score:2)
A lack of sex may be part of the problem! (Score:1, Offtopic)
Now take a look at a book aimed more at a male audience [images.bol.de].
Which one of these has the lurid sex scenes, do ya figure?
I loaned LoTR to my wife. After reading part of it, she stopped. Why? No sex. If she can't read a classic with a little sex in it [amazon.com], she'd just as soon read something cheesy with a lot of sex in it [amazon.com].
Or compare the typical cheesy male-targeted TV [scifi.com]
Re:A lack of sex may be part of the problem! (Score:2)
Anyway, you reminded me of a fun game we used to play at the trashy novel section of the bookstore. Each participant would grab a trashy novel and then skim it for a sex scene. The first one to come across a sex scene won.
sex != romance (Score:2)
Re:A lack of sex may be part of the problem! (Score:2)
Women like literature that discusses social issues. Whether those are issues of justice, social acceptability, or relationship standards, that's where women gravitate. Women love Judge Judy, they love Jerry Springer, and they love Sex and the City. Okay, maybe those shows are trash. But in the same vein, they also love The Scarlet Letter, which is primarily a critique of puritanical society and its justice system. They a
Re:A lack of sex may be part of the problem! (Score:2)
You mean, your experience as a woman?
Guy on the last page misses the point (Score:2)
The problem is not that there are pretty girl gamers, if they are genuine. The problem is the ugly girl gamers - there aren't any.
Re:Guy on the last page misses the point (Score:1)
Re:Guy on the last page misses the point (Score:2)
Re:Guy on the last page misses the point (Score:2)
Re:Guy on the last page misses the point (Score:2)
I guessed as much, just wanted to keep talking - stereotypical slashdotter and all that.
And yes, but I dont go around and be all 'O Im a girl and I game', I try not to, and usally when in game, I dont speak with people for anything, unless its the random 'gg', 'ns', etc.
I wonder if that isn't part of it - the only girls who would make a fuss are the type the first participant is decrying. But that doesn't explain t
Re:Guy on the last page misses the point (Score:2)
Hmm. Do you think females are relu
Re:Guy on the last page misses the point (Score:2)
The article wasn't about female gamers per se (Score:1)
I for one, don't see why this is such a big deal.
It's been happening since I started gaming in 1978, so if you still can't deal with it, admit you're a virgin and learn how to smile, listen, and engage in polite conversation.
Your problem will go away.
That was a laugh... (Score:3, Insightful)
As others have already stated, gamers are gamers. I tend to hate articles about female gamers, or what it would take to draw more women to gaming, or why women don't like certain types of games, or how they play differently than men. If it's a good game and a woman has access to it and the time to play it and an introduction to it, she's likely to play it. Everything else is just gravy.
Re:That was a laugh... (Score:2)
It's just a question of audience. The male audience for "e-sports" is much bigger than the female. So the female gamers have to be sexy to appeal to the audience, but the audience doesn't care about how males look, so their aesthetic appeal is ignored.
If the female (or homosexual, I spose) component of the "e-sport" audience gets larger, then expect to see the same pressure on male pro-
Re:That was a laugh... (Score:2)
It doesn't surprise me. Currently, men are overwhelmingly the audience for video games. I think it's fair to say that male gamers are, at the very least, no better than "average" attractiveness. So having incredibly attractive male pro gamers would end up making the largest part of the demographic feel inadequate. And if these guys are attractive at the expense of their gaming ability, they'll come to be resented fo
Re:That was a laugh... (Score:2)
But is that really true anymore? Maybe certain types of games (first person shooters, for example), but about half of the people I game with regularly are women. I'm talking CoH, CoV, WoW, Everquest, muds, and puzzle games primarily, though a lot of women I know play console games with their kids.
That article wasn't even ABOUT female gamers... (Score:2, Interesting)
What percentage of female gamers belong to any sort of 'clan' and have ANY connection to what they were talking about?
For that matter, what percentage of MALE gamers belong to a clan or play professionally?
Sure, maybe professional female gamers are a bit of a joke - but there's a case to be made that ALL professional gamers are a bit of a joke.
Re:That article wasn't even ABOUT female gamers... (Score:2)
From a journalism point of view, normal gamers are a non-story. Each has their own trials and tribulations which they duly deal with and
Re:That article wasn't even ABOUT female gamers... (Score:2)
well (Score:1)
Also, I think that the article was essentially complaining (once you remove a few inflammatory generalizations) is that gamers selling sex are taking away sponsorship opportunities from people who ar
Angsty guilt fest (Score:3, Insightful)
Everyone, including female gamers, has to put up with the stupid minority. From what I saw and heard during the months I managed to do this on Xbox Live, I learned that girls are just as good at this as guys.
Girls are people, people are good at dealing with other people and the stupid shit they do. I think they (journalists) get so tied up in thinking about them being "girls" that they forget that class girl extends person.
what a pile of shit (Score:1, Flamebait)
Personally... (Score:2)
A bit far fetched (Score:2)
Then you have the other editor pretending to support women being taken seriously in gaming, and that editor sees no problem with them showing their asse
Attractive women in ANYTHING makes them popular (Score:2)
Hey, if a nice set of T's and a tight A allows a women to get corporate sponsorship, then go
Shirley Muldowney vs. Danica Patrick (Score:2)
Public Image (Score:2)
Look a NASCAR. Look at golf. Sponsorships do not track directly with success in competition. Look at talent shows like American Idol.
Sure, it may offend our geek principles that anything but skill can determine outcomes. But, now that money is involved, are we really surprised to see gaming descend to the same level as every other competition?
Here's a face-off (Score:2)
How can we call down women who use what they've got to get ahead? In every endeavor (work, politics, sports, etc.) women who want to compete have to slog through a never-ending bog of discrimination. If a woman uses her looks to get ahead, that's her right. The success she gains by her looks will never balance out the discrimination she has to deal with.
PART OF THE PROBLEM writes:
We are geeks. Geeks believe in the value of skill and intellect over physical appearance. In gaming, more
Female Gamers (Score:2)
He lost me after going off on Female Gamers contrasting his wife, whom I am to assume is a good christian woman who would never show her midriff for a new DEALIENWARE Laptop. Let me guess she said No F'n way am I posing for a website dressed like that and you learned a "very special" lesson
Gaming is open to all from ButUgly to Smokin Hot. Guy, Girl, Tranny, whatever. But if you are going to have a full page pic of said game
Re:Typo! (Score:1)
Re:Typo! (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Typo! (Score:1)
Re:Typo! (Score:1)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?l
Re:Said...with feeling. (Score:1)