Where Computers Go To Die 303
broohaha writes "Salon.com has a featured article on where all our unwanted techno trash gets sent, and what is not being done enough to account for all the so-called 'recycling' we're doing. From the article: 'More than 50 percent of our recycled computers are shipped overseas, where their toxic components are polluting poor communities. Meanwhile, U.S. laws are a mess, and industry and Congress are resisting efforts to stem the effluent of the affluent.' Some sites to visit dedicated to attacking the problem are Computer Take Back Campaign and Ban Action Network."
Re:Bush administration to blame... (Score:4, Insightful)
Catch 22 (Score:3, Insightful)
Why can't anything be simple? Are people really that greedy? I guess what'll happen is some certification will spring up "100% true recycling" or something. These things tend to work out in the end.
who then... (Score:5, Insightful)
That's pretty much the point of the article, and you missed it.
Effluent of the affluent? (Score:2, Insightful)
Freecycle? (Score:4, Insightful)
Part of the problem is that we junk our old computers or 'recycle' them. There are plenty of individuals and organisations that don't want or need a brand-new computer and would happily take our old machine. When I was a graduate student, I used to buy second-hand computers from my department every couple of years. I passed on my old machine to my 88-year-old neighbour and slapped Debian Woody on it (it works fine, by the way, and she now uses it constantly for keeping in contact with her family and for genealogy).
These days, if I wanted an old machine, I'd probably use Freecycle [freecycle.org]. This is simply a Yahoo forum for people who want to give away (or get for free!) unneeded items.
Re:Electronics/Computers are not the only items (Score:2, Insightful)
I do my part (Score:3, Insightful)
No great solution (Score:2, Insightful)
While I will not purchase from known pulluters if possible (as is my right to choose), I can't say I blame companies if a country out there says "Send me your crap - we will take care of it cheap". I don't see how one can feel justified in controlling international trade in ways they like but not in ways they do not as "like" tends to be personal and arbitrary (even if your line in the sand is pollution the next person may be "terrorism" or something else). You get control or no control - personally I choose as little control as possible and only where a clear line is.
Even then you need a clear plan in opposition - we have the discarded computers and "Can't do anything with them" isn't a solution (they have to do something with them). Yes, maybe it's REALLY bad for the environment but the stuff is there and we have to do something.
In this you can not make a clear line in the sand, only a random one where you feel it needs to be. Nothing really wrong with that other than many will have other random lines in the sand (and you do not get angry and worked up because someone has a different line in the sand).
Eh, anyway, this has been a known issue even in the early 90's when I first got into computing - I assume it was known before then, although I do not know how long before (my guess is even in the early days of computing).
Finally, don't take this as a too negative post. If you have a solution that allows companies to stay in business and is clean - by all means propose it and I'll support it. This isn't anything close to something I keep up with, only through news blurbs. Every one I see is complaints, no solutions. Complaints are OK as long there is a solution - I have been going bald since my early 20s, complaining about it hasn't stopped anything. Sometimes every choice sucks and you choose the least sucky (for instance, cost and effectiveness for baldness cure is horrid, thus best option is to accept it and go on unless you are one of the unusal individual that it works for).
Economics (Score:4, Insightful)
When the equation changes, we'll figure out a better way and we'll gradually start doing something different. This pattern hasn't changed for centuries.
An interesting business idea (unpatented as of yet) for you speculative investors, would be to collect and safely store (in landfills, or wherever) large amounts of technological waste of known quality (say, cellphones and ipods only, no monitors, or something). Then sit on it for a few decades, and wait for mining and recovery/recycling technology to catch up. Sort of like buying up land that has oil shale on it. You know we'll probably need it someday.
Re:The UK, Brussels' lapdog (Score:3, Insightful)
The "re-vote" in ireland was not an election, but a referendum, much like the frequent referendums in the US that get instrumentalised, repeated or overturned by politicians on a regular basis
The european parliament is an elected body (by the people, seats according to population, much like the US congress), while the european comission consists of the (elected) governments of the member states (imagine a senate where senators are the state governors). Which part of this system is "undemocractic"?
> mean the loser of an election here bitchs about "no democracy",
> but that is just cover for them feeling bad that the majority of Americans don't agree with them.
What about those who lose even though the majority of americans *do* vote for them (maybe half a million more than the guy who won??)
Re:I do my part (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:another place that takes them in (Score:5, Insightful)
I was investigating a scheme to get computers to the residents of a village in Kenya and my immediate reaction was to use recycled PCs, then I realised that using something like a low end mini-itx would work far better for them because it would be easier to get out there, could run for a long time on batteries (crucial for intermittent power problems) and is relatively robust (potentially solid state).
Horses for courses I guess, but I still have an extremely strong urge to get as much out of old hardware as I can.
Re:I do my part (Score:2, Insightful)
a small dedicated router would . Of course if you get your electricity from a renewable source then this is not a problem . These providers will then replace the electricity you
use from the national grid with electricity from renewable/sustianable sources.
That said , even if you don't have clean power reuse is still better than recycling but
please consider your power sources .
Re:IMHO Kyoto is dead anyway. (Score:2, Insightful)
And yet it has to happen. There is no way around hybrids, new or upgraded power-plants, energy efficiency measures, alternative fuels for internal combustion engines, home upgrades
Re:IMHO Kyoto is dead anyway. (Score:1, Insightful)
When climate change really hits is the USA going to take the can ? No, it will suddenly decide that it is a global problem. Sorry guys: we all share this planet, don't use more than your fair share.
Katrina was worse because of global warming - far, far worse is to come.
Re:Economics (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh, and while you're at it, please ban filament light bulbs {except where being used to illuminate revolving machinery, obviously} and disposable batteries, and exempt lead-acid batteries from pollution control {they're still about the least polluting option, 100% recyclable at end-of-life and lead is expensive enough already to ensure this is done}.
Dumping? Starving?? So much spin..... (Score:5, Insightful)
> electronics in the world's developing regions, including those in China
I don't see it as dumping if the Chinese are smuggling the stuff in..
I agree that it sucks to live in a third world country, and it sucks to live in a polluted environment. But what will these people do for food if they can't recycle? Will they starve?
It's easy for rich fat Americans and Europeans to be critical of situations that put people and the environment at risk.. But we mostly all have food to eat every day, and homes, and money. I'm reluctant to pass judgement on other people I don't know or understand. If was starving I would work a dangerous job to buy food.
Pointless Upgrades (Score:3, Insightful)
There seems to be a lot of forced upgrading among those who don't need more power, whether that be for new OSs requiring more sophisiticated hardware, or that PC manufacturers have redesigned the internals again and you cannot buy a replacement PSU/whatever for your old machine when it blows.
With more considerations paid to backward compatability as well as component quality I think we could cut waste quite a bit.
This is just an observation. What do you think?
I'm storing until I can recycle (Score:3, Insightful)
I mostly reuse computer cases, just swapping out mainboards. Mainboards and old PCI cards can stack pretty compactly. It's the couple of old dead CRTs that are really taking up the space.
I'll take them somewhere when I can be confident that they'll be handled in a sane manner. They'll probably still be in my basement in 20 years, knowing how fast things move in the environmental regulation area, particularly internationally.
Re:What about all the stuff that doesnt get recycl (Score:5, Insightful)
1 - too many people believe that P-III 500 they paid $1500.00 for in 1998 is still worth $1000.00 and will not sell it for less so it will sit in a closet for 3 more years and then silently get thrown in the trash.
2 - Way too many people believe that you have to have a Pentium4 or better and 2GHZ or faster to do anything. I can edit a full length feature film, do Advanced CG graphics at broadcast quality and everything else productive that is done today on much older hardware. Hell we have a old intergraph Graphics Workstation here with dual P-II 350's in it with a old copy of Lightwave that can do amazing things (and has! the M&M animated characters on TV were done on that same hardware and software revision)
and that is with windows, install a properly chosen and configured linux on it and it can be faster "feeling" than a XP machine on modern hardware.
Way too much get's tossed based on a belief that it is un-useable. I fished out of the trash here at work a pair of Dell poweredge servers that had only P-III processors in them. They scream as SQL and File servers at home, and a smaller company would kill for that kind of resources that a larger company happily tosses in a dumpster.
Obsolete = useful in different ways. I have old obsolete 386 pc104 formfactor computers all over michigan on towers acting as ham radio digipeater data collection nodes running an obsolete linux kernel and had rolled Filesystem to fit on a 4meg flash. that 1.X kernel is supposedly "unsafe" but nobody can hack them unless they want to climb up 200 feet.
these old computers would rock for a robot "brain" for robotics... adda rat-shack VEX kit and go the next step from remote control erector set to real robot.
There is lots of life left in "obsolete" computers and computer parts.
Hell I keep around dead motherboards and cards simply because I never have to buy surface mount resistors and capacitors anymore... Harvest the boards for free parts to feed my electronics hobby!
Re:I do my part (Score:3, Insightful)
Just how much pr0n are you planning on hosting? An old 10Gb HD will store a full Linux FOTM desktop install. And there will still be lots of room for your 100k of weblog posts.
You do know how to use a voltmeter, right? When the HDs are idle, my webserver draws less current than the 80W motor and five 100W lightbulbs in the ceiling fan above it. Heck, with the 250W PSU, it's peak load is smaller than my 300W 'small' blowdryer's average.
That 250W power supply in my Pentium 166Mhz webserver lost use of it's fan this month. Bearings finally seized. Funny thing, that old PC. Runs so cold compared with my workstations and laptops that it gets enough cooling from convetion and radidation. Now it's the quietest thing in that backroom.
But I'm sure the PC's cache of Goatcx vs. Tubgirl pics are hurting the planet "in an entirely different way."
Geeks & nerds just don't throw out computers. (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not the enthusiasts that fill up junkyards/landfills/ships to China/India. It's people who don't know/care much about the subject that just junk their stuff as soon as it's no longer the "latest and greatest." It's not just individuals, but companies that do this (although larger companies often have a plan where they send their older hardware to be used in schools or community centers or some such).
Something that every nerd and geek can do to help reduce useful hardware going to junkyards/landfills/overseas is to let their friends and coworkers know that much of the stuff that people are throwing out can be repurposed. This goes for not just computers, but most electronic equipment. A lot of people just throw out their old TVs/VCRs/DVD players/etc. too (even though they still work or just need a tiny repair). And being the person that everyone knows is into recycling/repurposing has the side benefit of probably being the person who receives the hand-me-down hardware!
Re:Effluent of the affluent? (Score:2, Insightful)
Somebody. On Slashdot. Used "effluent" and "affluent" in the same sentence. Correctly.
Don't give me this "global responsibility" crap in the face of a God Damned Miracle!
Cheers! -J
Re:another place that takes them in (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:another place that takes them in (Score:3, Insightful)
Really? Most introductory computer users are going to type S-L-O-W-L-Y into their computer as they type up their homework or email. They'll spend large amounts of time staring at the screen trying to decipher what they're looking at. Does it really make any difference if their computer sits at 98% idle or 99.99999999926% idle?
I find that there's a law of diminishing returns for computers and computer usage, particularly when you're talking about consumer usage.
> Having a low-end pentium computer connected to the Internet at 56k delivers vast, incredible advantages over no computer at all.
> Having 10x faster computer at 10x the connection speed delivers much less more of an advantage.
> Having 100x faster computer at 100x the connection speed delivers very little more value than 10x.
Only in limited contexts (EG: performance clustering, rendering, some servers) is this not true, and this is why the $100 laptop with built-in mesh networking is such a big freaking deal! It has society-changing potential. When the poor and impoverished have cheap, easy access to information and technology, they can realize the true causes of their plight and take much more effective action to make their lives better.