When Ads Go Wandering 69
conq writes "BusinessWeek explores yet another click fraud scam, this one utilizing Yahoo!'s ads." From the article: "Somewhere along the way, an ad can wander off this trail. This happens when one of Yahoo's partners decides to give its own partners a cut in return for traffic, Edelman says. According to the study, a Yahoo partner called Ditto.com served an Overture advertisement through another site, NBCSearch (no affiliation with General Electric's NBC), unaffiliated with Yahoo. That company, in turn, passed it along to one of its own partners. (NBCSearch didn't immediately respond to requests for comment.) When that happens, Yahoo can't track its ads. Sometimes, the ads show up in undesirable places, like a pop-up from a spyware program. The average user simply sees the pop-up, unaware of how many networks it traversed beforehand."
Nice summary (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Nice summary (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Nice summary (Score:4, Interesting)
Hey, it comes from a guy at BusinessWeek.
His target audience probably doesn't even know these ad-serving networks exist... a list of corporate entities is probably as comprehensible as he can make it.
> > The average user simply sees the pop-up, unaware of how many networks it traversed beforehand."
Meanwhile, the average Slashdot user simply sees a grey box, red "X", broken link icon, or grey-and-white checkerboard, unaware of which link in the chain of tracking networks, ad servers, or regular expressions in his adblocking proxy prevented it from showing up.
So if it's any consolation, I haven't a clue what the article means either, because it'd take me at least an hour to break my adblocking tech badly enough to figure it out!
Re:Nice summary (Score:2)
Very true. I'm barely aware that the Web still has ads. I hear that Slashdot has ads, but I've never seen one.
Re:Nice summary (Score:1)
You must be new here. 25% of the "articles" are press releases or blatent slashvertisements.
Re:Nice summary (Score:2)
Sorry man, you missed this:
by Animats (122034)
Animats knocks you around on "must be new here" by about 440,000 users
~Rebecca
Re:Nice summary (Score:3, Informative)
You must be new here.
Re:Nice summary (Score:2)
This might be a silly question, but what do you expect to happen when the sites you use can't make any money out of advertising anymore?
Whilest I'm in favor of blocking "bad" adverts (popups, those designed to be extremely annoying, flash ads that suck all your CPU time and play music at you, etc) I think those who block _all_ ads must be either very short sighted or just plain stupid - don't we wan
Re:Nice summary (Score:2)
Behind all advertising is the system of tracking advertising. You need to know how much to pay a website for displaying your ad, and to verify a website gets as much traffic as they claim.
But what I would like to know is how the RSS feed scam worked. A year ago, someone found a way to get a top page listing on Yahoo by exploiting Yahoo's algorithm by using a RSS feed.
There are so many different algorithms, that maybe
Re:Nice summary (Score:2)
A Yahoo partner served an advertisement (called Overture) through another site, NBCSearch, which is not affiliated with GE's NBC, which is not affiliated with Yahoo, which in turn passed it along to one of it's own partners, NBCSearch, who didn't respond for comments, because of which, Yahoo can't track it's ad.
Mini-mini version:
Yahoo can't track the ad, because NBCSearch declined to comment.
Any questions?
Re:Nice summary (Score:1)
Overture Services, Inc. is the former name of Yahoo! Search Marketing (obligatory wikipedia link here [url])
Yahoo! makes ads available to partners to display in exchange for a cut of the fees. One particular partner (Ditto.com) passed it to its own partner (NBCSearch, no affiliation to NBC)
NBCSearch in turn displayed the ad using 180solutions' spyware, which in some cases simulated a click-thr
Re:Nice summary (Score:2)
Which they do. They can 'track it' in terms of, okay it was clicked on, or it was seen, but they can't in terms of knowing the breakdown of the audience and trusting the validity of the traffic.
But still, this is standard wild west online advertising. I'm not shedding tears, but they do waste the money of their advertiser if they dont clamp down on sites that resell their ad supply.
Re:Nice summary (Score:2)
Re:Nice summary (Score:2)
I don't understand what's in it for any of the parties involved. I'm not familiar with the way Yahoo ads work, so I'll talk about Google AdSense here (which I use and so I'm familiar with it). Normally the way it works is:
1. A website is a member of AdSense
2. when you visit it you get shown a Google advert that is appropriate to the content of the page.
3. When someone clicks on the ad then google gets paid
Re:Nice summary (Score:2)
That is unquestionably the most incomprehensible article summary I've ever read. What?
Really, all these people sum it up way too complicated... Yahoo! delivers ads to its partners, one of its partners decided to forward such an ad to one of their partners, and wham!, Yahoo lost track of where the advertisement's being displayed...
Many forms of click fraud (Score:3, Informative)
The only sure-fire way to detect click fraud in its various forms is to take a look at the click-to-transaction ratio for a given ad. Of course, the only way to really know if there's fraud is to have some way of having a control group. What that would do is let you say something akin to "If someone clicks this particular travel ad, there's an xyz% probability that person will make a purchase, and the average purchase will be $abc."
I don't think there's any company out there doing this kind of controlled experimentation to determine true click-fraud rates, but I believe that's eventually what people will have to do.
Re:Many forms of click fraud (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Many forms of click fraud (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Many forms of click fraud (Score:2)
Re:Many forms of click fraud (Score:2)
Re:Many forms of click fraud (Score:1)
Yahoo at fault (Score:1, Offtopic)
If I understand correctly... (Score:5, Informative)
1. An Overture user takes out an advert with Yahoo!
2. Yahoo! passes the ad to its partner Ditto
3. Ditto passes the ad to its partner NBCSearch (nothing to do with the TV channel)
4. NBCSearch passed it on to one of its partners.
At that point the trail appears to run cold, but the suggestion is that the ads make their way into spyware and auto-click software.
Re:If I understand correctly... (Score:1)
and if they arn't making money jsut providing free adds.. then all i have to say is why the fucking hell . someone should find that coder and beat him with his own keyboard
Re:If I understand correctly... (Score:2, Insightful)
Seems weird. OK lets assume yahoo are paying 1 dollar per click from one of their associates (I know this is WAY more, but I'm not going to work through figures with thousanths of pennies!). Their associates pay 50 cents to one of THEIR associates who pays 25 cents to another who (through spam) forces yahoo to pay for an extra million clic
Re:If I understand correctly... (Score:1)
Re:If I understand correctly... (Score:1)
i see the money trail now. but in the end yahoo makes money but advertizers now have ads in popups which any respectiable company doesn't want..
only click fraud that i have experenced is yahoo randomly advertizing my company on key words that we didn't ask for..
Re:If I understand correctly... (Score:2)
If that is the trail of involvement, no wonder people have an inherent distrust and suspicion regarding advertisers.
On occassion I've tried to contact companies that produce excellent ads. The response is always, "we don't do that, thanks for your interest".
Clarifying -- from the original author (Score:5, Informative)
Your four points above give an almost-complete statement of what happened, in one of my click fraud examples. Revising your points a bit to finish the story:
1. An Overture advertiser takes out an advert with Yahoo!
2. Yahoo! passes the ad to its partner Ditto
3. Ditto passes the ad to its partner NBCSearch (nothing to do with the TV channel)
4. NBCSearch passed it on to 180solutions.
This "passing on" was all in a way that told Yahoo, falsely, that a click had occurred. So the advertiser ultimately ended up paying for a click that never actually happened.
What's the big deal?
1. The advertiser got cheated. The advertiser paid for a click, but no click happened.
2. The spyware vendor got paid. Spyware comes from big companies, with real expenses. They need money to pay their bills -- their programmers, their installation partners, etc. If they couldn't find revenue sources, they'd disappear.
Re:Clarifying -- from the original author (Score:1)
Re:Clarifying -- from the original author (Score:1)
Re:If I understand correctly... (Score:1)
Re:If I understand correctly... (Score:3, Interesting)
->Yahoo Overture
-->Ditto.com
--->Nbcsearch
---->180solutions
Smartbargains buys ads from Yahoo(Overture). Smartbargains expects customers to click on their ads and pay Yahoo for each click.
Yahoo distributes their ads through Ditto because Ditto appears to be a legitimate publisher and Yahoo wants to increase their traffic.
Ditto pays Nbcsearch. toolbar?
Nbcsearch pays 180Solutions. toolbar?
In this example I'm not sure if Nbcsearch has their own toolbar
First Post! (Score:4, Funny)
Why link to BusinessWeek? (Score:5, Informative)
Mod Parent UP! (Score:2)
when discussing a story about ads (Score:1)
I think its quite what they intended to do.
WWGD? (Score:2)
The biggest problem with click fraud... (Score:5, Interesting)
...is that companies like Google and Yahoo! have refused to take it seriously.
Many people, including myself, suggest that this is because these companies are earning big money off of those clicks, regardless of how they are obtained.
As someone who was banned from Google's "magic money machine" without reason or cause, only to find a company unwilling to talk to you about it...it changes your opinion of things. That's all I can say.
Re:The biggest problem with click fraud... (Score:2)
And you're super-duper-100% sure that you didn't violate anything in the ToS, right?
Re:The biggest problem with click fraud... (Score:2, Interesting)
Actually, I did violate the TOS. Here's what I did...
I was new the whole AdSense thing, and working with a site using some really ugly (aka 4am) CSS code. For some reason, the ads were acting goofy, so I kept testing them myself. Naturally, I assumed a $100 billion corporation would have the common sense to ignore hits coming in from my IP, being that I was meanwhile logged in to Google in another tab.
The next day I noticed I had "earned" like $0.50. I knew this was a mistake, as noone even knew where t
Yahoo click fraud -- big problem this week (Score:5, Interesting)
Today, Yahoo, revised our referral and cost numbers for the entire year. It turns out that we may have paid for about sixty-thousand dollars in fraudulent clicks in the past year.
How is money made?? (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't fully understand all the money in advertising. I knew a guy who threw up a website about telcom. He wrote a few articles about new technologies (digital versus analog, j2me versus other tech, etc), and copied a few from other places. He then spammed every blogger to get links to his website. And this guy was making $1,000+ a month from Google from people selling cell phone service plans.
On the flip side, when Google is used for searches, many of these "fake" pages come up in the listings. "Fake" webpages which are nothing more than keyword spamming with links to a commercial website.
Meanwhile, people who want to add original content which is meaningful gets pushed out of the rankings because they are not SEO experts. It is like money ruined search results because there is competition, not for good quality, but for advertising money.
How does Google respond? They sandbox all new domains for 6 months to 1 year. That screws new people, and protects the old. Why did Google do that? A local astronomy group purchased a domain, and they can't get listed on Google no matter what they try. Yahoo lists them, but Google won't.
And why does Google use a pagerank for listings- the weight on how many links a new website has, and how high the pagerank of the incomming links are? It gives too much power to large older websites. It is like a star trek fan website will have a better search listing if they get a link from tv.com, than from 4 or 5 other star trek fan websites (even though the fan websites might generate more interested people).
I would like to see people rewarded for content, not how many links they generate.
Does anyone here make good money from the internet? Is spamming and SEO required? Can good content beat Google's pagerank algorithm?
Re:How is money made?? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:How is money made?? (Score:2)
Most SEO forums I see are nothing but BS. It is like the guy who tells you he made millions in real estate- and now he wants to make you rich by selling you his program for $99.95. I've spent days at SEO forums reading and trying to figure out what's going on. There is some meaningful guessing, lots of wild speculation, and a large dose of BS.
And once the algorithm is figured out, it is the exact opposite of what'
Re:How is money made?? (Score:2)
Re:How is money made?? (Score:1, Informative)
If the content is good, people will link to that page, thus boosting the Pagerank. That's the whole point...
Re:How is money made?? (Score:2)
If the content is good, people will link to that page, thus boosting the Pagerank. That's the whole point...
That is not true. I could have 100 websites linked to my website, and it would mean less than having 1 incomming link from a website with a PR of 9.
I was looking at the incomming links to one sucessful DVD website. They had links from hidden places, that people could not see but Google could. For example, they had incomming links from real es
Re:How is money made?? (Score:2)
Re:How is money made?? (Score:1)
How does Google respond? They sandbox all new domains for 6 months to 1 year. That screws new people, and protects the old. Why did Google do that? A local astronomy group purchased a domain, and they can't get listed on Google no matter what they try. Yahoo
Google ads been weird. (Score:3, Interesting)
A similar case of 'wandering' adverts! (Score:2)
The best example of this was a partner of a parner of one of the agencies we advertise with that targeted adult websites, somebody within the company we were advertising for pointed out that their animal su
Perfect solution (Score:2)
If Yahoo gave out their own pop-up blocker, they'd help stop this from happening.
180 Solutions - A real winner (Score:2, Informative)
Free Lunch! (Score:2)
Which is the best reason for a 'micropayment' or subscription system.
personally, I'd like a system where sites to cluster into overlapping groups for a mass subscription fee to advertisment free pages, where each group is administrated, and profits shared by humans, instead of an automated system.
One small fee would cover all of OSTG, or all of G
LookSmart is pretty bad (Score:2)
To me, it seems like all these search places a
Re:LookSmart is pretty bad (Score:2)
You, sir, are quite correct.
not a problem (Score:1)