OSDL to Bridge GNOME and KDE 321
Trax88 writes "Open Source Development Labs is previewing work that will attempt to make life easier for software companies by bridging GNOME and KDE. The effort, called Portland Project, began showing its first software tools on in conjunction with this week's LinuxWorld Conference & Expo. Using them, a software company can write a single software package that works using either of the prevailing graphical interfaces. Working with Freedesktop.org on unifying interface issues, they plan to release a beta version of the software in May and version 1.0 in June. Ultimately, advocates hope that it will be part of a larger but separate effort called Linux Standard Base, which is designed to make the operating system easier for software companies to use."
If it's no better... (Score:4, Insightful)
If it's no better than what Redhat did with their Frankenstein mix of Gnome and KDE, then I want nothing to do it.
I'd rather one or the other. But, really the other: KDE.
Merge ? (Score:2, Insightful)
I understand that my statement looks like a troll's dream but it would not be such a bad situation.
After all, Firefox is now the main F/OSS web browser with a large dominance among the F/OSS community. And it's not that bad. Why would it be so bad with desktop managers ?
Please enlighten me. Thank you.
Remember Direct3D? (Score:5, Insightful)
Look at the Windows side... Direct3D is pretty useful and was intended to remove the need for developers to write for specific graphics cards.
What happened? For a time everything was fine until the two major players, in an effort to differentiate themselves from the other went off in slightly different directions ultimately resulting in vanilla DirectX and Direct3D being a lowest common denominator between the two sides, and still forcing developers on both sides to write specific code for major devices so as to be able to offer the best experience.
I foresee a similar issue here. A common platform that enables an app written for it to work fine under KDE or Gnome will work great, at first, but then developers will find a feature of one or the other which they need, or at least want to have optional, so will design in parallel paths of UI rendering and functionality, ultimately resulting in a common framework that is insufficient for many apps.
Re:Gnome Logo on Slashdot (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Merge ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, some will tell you its good for competition. They are lieing.
Others will say why their desktop is superior because it has feature X. These people are just ignorant.
Some may even go into KDE being coded in C++ which is superior, or the reverse from Gnomers who think C is superior. These people need to go outside and get some sun, take a deep breath, and go find a real hobby.
The rest of us know the truth is that it doesn't really matter.
WxWidgets (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:But... (Score:5, Insightful)
Then it's a good thing the benevolent dictator is in charge of the kernel and not the desktop environment. That kind of approach is great for an API, and if you have very technical users that don't mind spending hours setting things up OK for a desktop environment, but when you come right down to it most users either are idiots or want to behave like they are. That's not to say they're idiots in other areas; a rocket scientist could have problems using their computer, and there's no reason they should be an expert in both rocket science and desktop environments.
I don't consider myself an idiot, but I use Gnome and love it. It's not crippled in terms of functionality, but if an option doesn't really matter it's taken out, and if it does they put a lot of thought into making a sane and consistent way to use it. The environment not only gets out of my way, but helps me along to where I want to go.
Basically, just because he was responsible for the kernel doesn't make him qualified to make these decisions. I still like him, and he makes less asanine comments than most, this is nothing more than another addition to the list of asanine comments he's made.
Re:Gnome Logo on Slashdot (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Merge ? (Score:3, Insightful)
I understand that my statement looks like a troll's dream but it would not be such a bad situation.
After all, Firefox is now the main F/OSS web browser with a large dominance among the F/OSS community. And it's not that bad. Why would it be so bad with desktop managers ?
Please enlighten me. Thank you.
Before there was Firefox, do you think that Opera and Mozilla should have merged? Would that have been a better solution than making Firefox?
Firefox has gained dominance because it has earned it. If a desktop manager gains dominance, it will (hopefully) have earned it too, but you can't just force something into dominance. KDE and Gnome users like different things. Maybe another desktop manager can take the best of both, or come up with new ways that are better, and convince most users to switch, but that won't happen by forcing two entrenched products to merge.
Re:But... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:But... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Merge ? (Score:3, Insightful)
This brings me back to another post of mine in this thread [slashdot.org] and I'll say it again: In their quest to simplify the user experience, the Gnome developers have rendered the environment useless.
Simplicity has great value. (Score:3, Insightful)
Have you read all 54,000 pages of tax code?
Are you aware of all the laws that apply to your daily life?
I believe simplicity in general, and especially simple laws and simple codes are important - otherwise you get to the point where not even one specialized person can understand a single entity.
I heartily applaud Gnome, Gaim, Firefox, and other open source projects who are making the effort to *simplify* their programs.
Simple is far from stupid; simple is smart!
Solution to file browsers? (Score:3, Insightful)
I would like to see a Unix-style solution to this mess, which is to have small programs do each job. In the file chooser case, any program wanting to popup a file chooser would do something like exec("file_chooser", args...) and wait for it to exit. Exit with an error means the user hit cancel. Exit with success and the program will print the chosen filename to stdout. Existing toolkits would be modified to do this, scrapping their filechooser code.
This would allow people to experiment with new designs of file choosers. This would, within a few months, make Linux have the best file chooser in the world, as opposed to being in last place as it is now. Also practically, the file chooser program could lauch and keep a process running, allowing all the read directories and all the icons and thumbnails and user preferences to be already loaded and cached and shared between every file chooser, rather than the obscene overhead that exists now. It would allow all programs to instantly integrate into KDE/Gnome/XFCE because they all call the same file chooser and other popup panels.
Even today there is a lot of precedence. After a long line of crap, it is becoming accepted to display a web resource by running "firefox ", rather than running the toolkit's html preview widget. There is already a program called "dialog" or "kdialog" that does a very limited version, though people seem to think this is only for shell scripts, but nothing keeps programs with no tookit from exec'ing it.
I would like to see some sign that the freedesktop.org guys are considering this, but have not seen anything. Really sad and scary, as they are killing the biggest advantage Linux has or could have over other systems.
How about just agreeing on dialogs, OK/Cancel? (Score:3, Insightful)
Personally, I prefer the KDE style because I use Windows at work and dual boot at home. Ok/Cancel is what I'm used to, and it makes more sense to me. If Gnome users prefer the Mac way of doing things, hey - that's great. But no matter what *desktop* a Linux user is using, they are going to be using a mix KDE *apps* AND Gnome *apps*. Can we *please* just have a configuration option that switches button order, file browser dialog style, etc. based on what the *user* wants?
Thanks
Re:Gnome user Converted to KDE Here (Score:3, Insightful)
Gnome has realized that 99% of users NEVER CHANGE THE DEFAULTS. Slashdotters included; why do you think so many people complain about the paperclip and auto-format in Word instead of just spending 5 seconds turning those features off? Because they don't change the defaults; very few do.
So the key, the number one most important thing is that you must have everything working and looking good by default.
Everyone who loves KDE always mentions that they love it after spending an hour twiddling with options to get it to look and behave how they like. They are a minority, a very very small minority.
Re:Gnome Logo on Slashdot (Score:1, Insightful)
"Nooo, our logo is a black foot! We haven't used a marble foot in a long time, this is a travesty!"
And you wonder why Linus recommends KDE.
Re:But... (Score:3, Insightful)
How often do you deal with the computer illiterate and have to explain to them how to work their desktop correctly? Not often I'd wager because you'd realize that simplicity is the way to go, and power is being added onto the GNOME/GTK+ platform again as time goes on. The power is simply being placed where it should, within the confines of gconf where power users are free to alter the default behaviors at will, nevermind the options already present in the menus. KDE is overwhelming for the majority of users who simply want to use the computer, not play with their new toy. This is not to say KDE is not right for those people, it's just that KDE can present a significant learning curve. They've got a great toolkit, they've got excellent ideas on how to design user interfaces, and they've got plenty of options -- The problem is that the KDE crew has always had a problem with cramming way too much into way too little space, the KDE Control Center and Application Menu being the greatest offenders throughout the desktop environment's career.
Seriously, when people don't even have a concept of what the toolbar is, simplicity in design and a logical flow is greatly desired. And people wonder why GNOME is making inroads in the business world. Could we please stop acting like there has to be only one?
Re:Gnome user Converted to KDE Here (Score:3, Insightful)
I used to do that too (indeed, my layout looked almost exactly like that). Then I realized I had to do it over for every app. Or every time I tried a new distribution. Or whenever I had to wipe my
I really like the customisability of KDE applications, one of the reason why I use KDE in particular. I like having access to advanced tools if I need it. I'd rather not have a dumbed down UI.
The thing about customizability is this: its usually a bad thing. The way people want to work is usually not the way they should be working. This is a fact in many facets of life --- that's precisely why every industry you'll encounter has "best practices" to teach you how you should be doing things. There has been enough research into user interfaces that a interface based on these principles, like GNOME, can be objectively very efficient.
As for dumbing down, its a red-herring. There isn't really much you cannot do in GNOME (aside from customization --- which isn't an end in itself) that you can do in KDE. GNOME's features aren't that sparse, they're just not in your face at every turn. GNOME depends more heavily on the user taking advantage of the full range of his/her interaction capabilities. So in the GTK+ file dialog, you have to hit CTRL-L to get the path bar, but in the common case of when you're already in the directory you want and the file is staring right at you, you don't have to deal with the mental baggage of having to look at the path bar.
The whole idea of "dumb" interfaces is idiotic. GNOME isn't a "dumb" interface, it's an interfaced that's actually designed according to UI principles. This does not mean designing to dumb users or new users, but designing to accomodate the inherent limitations of the human mind. The same things that make the UI discoverable for new users (minimal clutter, proper layout, etc), also make it more efficient for experienced users. Some of the things KDE apps do (like Konqueror's enormous right-click menus), are just objectively wrong. Human have the ability to memorize lists of 5-7 items. A context menu with a dozen items means the person has to read it instead of just invoking muscle memory. That's not preference, that's fact. The spacing stuff is unforgiveable too. It goes against everything people are taught about page layout. Lots of other things as asthetically egregious. That's not a "smart" interface, its a bad one.
Re:But... (Score:3, Insightful)
That could be the case because up until 2.14, Gedit could open, but not save over VFS. This shortcoming has been fixed in the latest release [gnome.org].