The Story Behind JBoss's Boss 119
kosamae writes "Businessweek has an interesting article about Marc Fleury. It's more about the business and personal end of his life than about the technology he's helped to create." From the article: "But while Fleury, like Neo, is something of a cult figure, few people in the old or new software world want to think of him as their savior. Brash, outspoken, and frequently insulting, Fleury has clawed his way to the top of the open-source pile over the past six years. Part of the dislike arises because he's a threat. Even though JBoss brings in only $50 million a year in revenues, at most, from providing training, support, and maintenance services to its users, it has siphoned off some hundreds of millions in market value from the likes of BEA Systems and IBM by giving away free software."
Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:5, Interesting)
The idea that you can make a basic product and give it away free in order to support your ongoing labor is an idea I've grasped all my life. I started my first BBS in 87 (13 years old) and used it to build my IT consulting business. I started a 3D video production house that had the same premise: build the models for free and then work on an hourly basis to help the client utilize the models. Today I converted my print newsletters to various blogs that I post for free, which has increased my hourly rate more than enough to compensate for the time I write them.
I look at all the various cartelized industries: music, movies, software, etc. They base their future incomes on protecting the uniqueness of their software through bad laws (such as copyright and patent) rather than the free market procedure of open competition. Bands can learn from JBoss -- give your digital music away free in order to support your fan base in person. Make your money by continuing to meet your customers' needs in person, and use the previous portfolio of work to show that you're worth hiring.
Fleury may not have come to his business plan from the same political viewpoint, but I thank him openly for creating the firestorm he has. The big companies have spent years or even decades forming the law around them in order to dissuade competition from entering their markets. By taking advantage of "incumbent-protecting" patent and copyright laws, they made the barrier to entry even harder. Now they have to compete, and they have to do so in a unique manner.
When people say you can't fight big corporations, it is only because these corporations have taken the law that is supposed to protect our rights and instead made it into a preferential treatment law. Now that others understand the basis of income -- ongoing consistent work and support of your customers -- the playing field might be truly leveled so that others can come in and bring the costs down even more while increasing the quality of products and services we all use and need. That will be true, at least, if government keeps their hands off of open source and other market creations that open the door to more healthy competition. Just want until we have a bigger anti-competition board created at the federal level.
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:3, Interesting)
What parts do you disagree with? I don't necessarily mean let's open the floodgates of debate, but it helps me to get a grasp of the ideas out there. E-mail is fine, too, if you'd rather
I can't stand this ideal that "making money" or "getting rich" is wrong somehow.
Of course it isn't. Money is nothing but your time stored to redeem in the future. When people talk about "greedy people" they're just mad that someone found a way to sell their time to someone else for more time-
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:2, Interesting)
Example, in Georgia right now, we have a developer (land not software) who is in the state senate. He's introduced legislation regarding land use that basically says a land owner should be able to put whatever he wants into a waterway (of any size) because it's on
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:2)
Thanks for the answer and the insight, it is always back to the drawing board for us anarcho-capitalists
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:4, Insightful)
Just keep in mind JBoss requires copyright law (at very least) to be in place to make a large amount of their revenue. Most of their documentation, training materials, and entry level consulting and support services (read from the internal answer book and give clients those previously prepared answers) are covered by it.
Not to mention the fact that all of the opensource software JBoss distributes requires it as well. Without copyright law you are left with public domain. The GPL requires the copyright law to restrict companies from modifying and selling GPL based products.
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:2)
I understand this, but I don't think copyright necessarily does much to create JBoss's market. It seems to be almost anecdotal as there are enough ways to obfuscate open sourced code so that others don't know you've borrowed it from another project. In
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:2)
The GPL doesn't have such restrictions. In fact the GPL specifically allows anyone to distribute GPL'd code, as-is or modified or combined with any other code, as long as the modified or combined work is distributed under the GPL and the source code to the whole product is available at no extra charge.
Really, the whole purpose of GPL is to allow this kind of modification and redistribution.
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:1)
You cannot take GPL'd code and put it in a commercial product, that would be infringement on copyright and the license itself.
Copyright law is designed so that there is an incentive for people to produce original work. It is designed to protect artists, designers and programmers, etc, so that they can live and produce creative work without the worry that someone will exploit or abuse their work.
For exampl
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:2)
That's what I just said.
Yes you can. You simply need to license the commercial product to the buyers under the GPL and give them the full source code to it. For example, any commercial Linux distribution (Red Hat Enterprise Linux, Mandriva, Suse...) will include GPL'd cod
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:2)
selling a purely free (as in freely copiable/resellable) product is an extremely low margin buisness as you will immediately get undercut so i'd hardly call it commercial software in the traditional sense.
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:1)
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:1)
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:3, Insightful)
Beyond that, this business model would seem to put stress in all the wrong places. If you're charging for service, you've actually got a big financial incentive NOT to make your product straightforward and bug-free; the onl
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:2)
That's why a programmer in a vacuum is useless. All manufacturing laborers (ie, programmers) need additional people to bring their manufacturer product to market. Would a guy who spot welds auto parts be fine by himself?
If you're charging for service, you've actually got a big financial incentive NOT to make your product straightforward and bug-free; the only reason you're even MAKING a product, from a business standpoint, is so that you have something t
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:3, Interesting)
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You're not making money from the books
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:3, Insightful)
Exactly! In a competitive marketplace, two things generally occur: prices move towards zero, and quality moves upwards. I found the secret to book selling: give it away and then build up your reputation as a desired speaker or consultant.
There are plenty of writers out there who don't want to do ANY of that. I kn
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:2)
JBoss threatened to sue Apache Geronimo (Score:2, Informative)
Re:JBoss threatened to sue Apache Geronimo (Score:1)
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:2)
Essentially open source works because Open Source style companies don't play by the rules that rig the game in favour of the big company encumbant. If you try to beat Oracle by selling a proprietry database, you'll crash and burn, and on the off chance you begin to succeed, Oracle will use its embedded position
Thats all fine and dandy in fantasy land (Score:1)
Look at the industrial revolution. Children working in factories instead of attending school, people working in factories with deplorable and hazardous working conditions, employers paying people below living wages, employers hiring illegal aliens (still happening today).
Sorry that you do not want to pay for music. Tough shit. Who finances ba
Re:Thats all fine and dandy in fantasy land (Score:2)
Many people? I seriously doubt this. Most people are egotistical, which is good because it allows them to maximize their benefit to themselves, which means putting them in a competitive position that in the long run means each of us is doing what we're best at.
Look at the industrial revolution.
I'm sort of sick of this part of the debate. The industrial revolution changed EVERYTHING that humankind was able to do for thousands of years
Re:STILL fantasy land (Score:2)
They should be, the get enough of my money as well as most of my customers who need a company that actually answers the phone. They're not geeky enough for most slashdotters, but 2 out of 3 problems I've had with hosting were my own damn fault for trying to do it myself.
Without the governmental reforms, there would be no information revolution. You should have paid attention in high shool instead of running BBS's.
That's typical socialist claptrap and
Re:Thats all fine and dandy in fantasy land (Score:2)
But egotistical concerns also lead people to cheat. Some people just plain aren't "best at" a damn thing. They either have a live a pretty poor life, or turn to crime. Not everyone has the potential to be an entrepreneur or skilled p
Re:Thats all fine and dandy in fantasy land (Score:3, Insightful)
Interesting. (Score:1)
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:2)
I believe your fear of too much wealth going to fewer hands is "fixed" by anarcho-capitalism. The biggest problem with wealth today is that it is stolen in ways that MOST people don't realize. For example, 99.9% of consumer goods inflation has been caused by the Federal Reserve creating new currency -- this dev
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:1)
To what degree? I can understand converting every piece of income into gold (probably using something like http://www.e-gold.com/ [e-gold.com]) instead of depositing your money into a bank account. If some gold-based micropayment system supported Visa/MC checkcards, it would actually be very little different than a bank account to me. No problem t
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:2)
I don't use any service -- I buy bullion and coins. I usually buy them at or below the spot price since I spend a lot of time coming the obituaries to find estate sales. I don't trust e-gold nor would I ever exchange my metal for a receipt. Remember, the US dollar was once backed by gold and/or silver -- the physical notes were just IOUs from the bank for the gold you had on deposit. Those pesky bankers loved Clay/Hamilton/Lincoln's idea of a central
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:1)
Well, I don't agree with you here - IMO, without a systemic way to redistribute wealth, wealth will almost inevitably be concentrated in fewer hands for the simple common-sense reason that it is easier to gather wealth once you already have a decent amount (given that you don't screw up bigtime and lose all your wealth in one fell swoop). The kind of financial corruption that you described might make this process g
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:1)
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:1)
My assumption is that, in the situation where there is a fairly small amount of available resources per person (like when you have too many people to be sustainably supported by the planet, for instance), the rich can get richer only by taking resources from the poor - resources which the poor can't replenish which taking it from someon
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:1, Insightful)
Capitalism requires the rule of law. Otherwise, you'd just firebomb your competition's headquarters.
Well, OK, we need a police force. But, uh, make it private, because I don't like government.
Private security forces = cartels. But weren't you just complaining about cartels? Or just government-backed cartels? When it comes down to it, what's the difference?
Restraint. Good luck with that one.
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:1)
Anarcho-capitalists shouldn't believe something which presupposes the existence of money. After all money is state-issued and only a state can grant that these little sheets of printed paper get accepted when you want to exchange
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:1)
Re:Open Source -- a rebirth of true capitalism? (Score:1)
Yes, it could - if you wanted the mine-owning nations/organizations/individuals to have all the purchasing power even without producing any consumer goods or offering any services.
Apart from that individuals can not really determine the purity of precious metals in daily life, unless they come in the form of state-issued coins (Eagle, Kruegerrand, etc.) It is for a reason that
Re:What the shit is with these new ads? (Score:1, Offtopic)
Re:What the shit is with these new ads? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:What the shit is with these new ads? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:New ads causing problems (Score:2)
That's what I was seeing in Firefox, too. Annoying!!!!!
"only" $50 million a year??? (Score:4, Interesting)
Sounds like a respectable sum to me. Where are the figures that show this is costing IBM and BEA "some hundreds of millions" in market value? The TFA doesn't say.
Re:"only" $50 million a year??? (Score:2)
CNet Article from 2003 (Score:2, Informative)
I worked at GetThere as a Senior Web Developer when they moved from BEA Weblogic to JBoss. Took the core engineering group abou
I hate typos. (Score:2, Insightful)
"But while Fleury ... is something of a cult figure..."
Going certain JBoss Inc. actions (e.g. astroturfing [slashdot.org] ) this is really only one letter out.
Re:I hate typos. (Score:4, Informative)
Of course, I just pulled that data out of my arse, so you shouldn't quote me on the exact figures. But seriously...
Re:I hate typos. (Score:1)
Some of us have only vaguely heard of JBoss. Even after looking it up, and finding (to no suprise) an endless stream of buzzwords, it seems that what JBoss is in a niche market.
If you're a web developer, it's probably got something to offer.
Otherwise, it's only earned a yawn.
Re:I hate typos. (Score:2, Informative)
Only if you consider J2EE ("enterprise java") web application (EJB, Servlets, JMS) containers a niche market. It certainly has/uses its share of buzzwords, but niche it ain't: it's one of the biggest (if not the biggest) platform for "enterprise computing", ie. big-ass companies running their server-side software on.
JBoss is competitor for (and replacement of) BEA WebLogic, IBM WebSphere, or on lower end, Jakarta Tomcat.
Above is not a comment on goodness
Article Summary (Score:5, Interesting)
Criticizes others for a cynical profit motive, but appears to have one of his own. Inspired by the Matrix, but ironically, people don't like him. Plans on expanding more open source projects and furthering the cynical profit motive.
I keep hearing this about Marc Fleury... (Score:3, Informative)
Funny thing is, the one or two times I've spoken to him in person I've walked away going, "Now there's a guy with his head on straight."
To each his own, I guess.
Re:I keep hearing this about Marc Fleury... (Score:2)
Honestly, I don't know the guy. I was just writing an article summary.
I think that he might have treated you a bit better than the rest of the 'money-grubbing' world, realizing that you are not a threat to his interests.
Re:I keep hearing this about Marc Fleury... (Score:2)
Re:I keep hearing this about Marc Fleury... (Score:2)
Well, press becomes less of a threat if you treat them nicely, obviously.
Re:I keep hearing this about Marc Fleury... (Score:2)
Of course. But the standard technique for dealing with press types for whom you have contempt is to try the "baffle them with bullshit" routine -- this guy has no clue what I'm talking about so I'll just make up some big speech and then walk away while his head's still spinning. I didn't get that from Fleury. Does he make with the hard-hittin' business talk? Sure. But I really do think that's what a lot of customers are looking for,
Re:I keep hearing this about Marc Fleury... (Score:1)
Re:I keep hearing this about Marc Fleury... (Score:1)
Re:What's the value proposition (Score:2)
This is an interesting point, for several reasons.
Firstly, Spring does obsolete some of J2EE, but only some. It also integrates and works very well with other parts of it. Some people think of Spring as a replacement for J2EE. In fact, it simply makes a lot of it far easier to use.
Secondly, the huge success of Spring shows that you don't need the appalling attitude of JBoss. Spring developers seem to have a completely
Fleury's Response (Score:5, Informative)
A capitalist version of Richard Stallman (Score:4, Insightful)
At the last user group meeting where I remember Mark speaking, he managed to drop at least a half-dozen F-bombs in addition to various fecal-related 4-letter words (this was in a BUSINESS setting). He also spent half the time pointing out how cosmopolitian he is due to years in California and Paris, and hammered home the point that anyone who questions him simply "lacks vision". In short, he comes across as EVERY obnoxious, phony, three-card-shuffle, smoke-and-mirrors aspect of the entire dot-com era... ALL distilled down into one annoying and pretentious walking sterotype.
The problem with Mark is that he makes open-source SOUND like the dot-com era redux... another batch of vaguely-qualified fruity visionaries with their half-baked business plans. The focus on Mark in the money-making open source market creates the same problems as the focus on Richard Stallman's personality over on the Gnu side. It's the messenger getting in the way of the message.
no mod points... (Score:2)
Maybe that's the Neo metaphor... (Score:1)
But I hear Patty Roy is working in Redmond now that he has retired from the Av's. so Fleury isn't alone in making the jump from tending the net to coding for it...
JBoss and Marc Fleury (Score:1, Interesting)
However, the guy has created the _only_ full J2EE certified open source appserver, in approximately 1/100th the minimum disk space requirement that websphere has.
Marc also cares deeply for his users. Before we bought a contract, I called in because of a problem, and talked to Marc himself, who solved it, then we proceeded to discuss about how and when
Re:JBoss and Marc Fleury (Score:2)
No - it is not the only one.
There is also Apache Geronimo.
Re:JBoss and Marc Fleury (Score:2)
Re:JBoss and Marc Fleury (Score:2)
That is true, but irrelevant. The original post claimed that JBoss was the '_only_' certfied J2EE app server.
Re:JBoss and Marc Fleury (Score:2)
Re:JBoss and Marc Fleury (Score:5, Funny)
Marc, don't try to live up to all our expectations. Stop posting as AC.
Re:JBoss and Marc Fleury (Score:1)
Shill? (Score:2)
personal end of his life (Score:5, Funny)
Brash, outspoken, and frequently insulting, Fleury has clawed his way to the top of the open-source pile over the past six years.
He will be missed.
Re:personal end of his life (Score:2)
Fleury is an arrogant asshole. (Score:1)
From the article regarding his wife's demands (Score:2, Funny)
"Well dear. How about you get
Re:From the article regarding his wife's demands (Score:2)
One day, when you have kids and you've "watched the kid while you program" you'll understand how rediculously silly your comment was.
Pressured to code (Score:1)
BEA loses mindshare not just because JBoss is free (Score:1)
Despite what BEA's marketing and training droids will tell you, there are many situations where JBoss works better. Much, much better.
I think the space where app servers like this really live, is a pretty small town to begin with. Lots of people in the industry are quite confused by the whole idea of J2EE, see it as a solution looking for a problem
Please don't mod me down (Score:2)
Azureus (Score:4, Interesting)
I'd been running ABC bittorrent client and it sucked, my connection was turned into a snail. Then I switched to Azureus, which is written in java. It doesn't crash, it's stable, fast, and allows me to use my bandwidth however I want.
This alone erased my prejudice against java apps in Windows.
Re:Goddammit (Score:3, Insightful)
Evidence?
The computing public despises Java.
So why has it just risen above C++ on sourceforce?
So what's your reason for even existing?
Portability, ease of development... etc... etc...
Re:frist 4so7!! (Score:1)
Re:frist 4so7!! (Score:2)
Re:"about the business and personal end of his lif (Score:1)