State of the Pen and Paper Industry 153
Syberghost writes "Kenneth Hite's annual 'State of the Industry' report has been released in his online column Out of the Box for gamer news site http://www.gamingreport.com. Among other interesting bits; Margaret Weis Productions is the sixth-largest RPG maker, on the sales of their sole RPG product line, the Serenity RPG. Sales overall were down, again; the RPG industry as a whole isn't doing well." Sad but not surprising.
Gurps (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Gurps (Score:2)
Re:Gurps (Score:2)
Re:Gurps (Score:2)
Surely you must like at least one of those...
Re:Gurps (Score:2)
I'll admit that makes me a little odd. It just seems, well, repetitive and dull.
Re:Gurps (Score:2)
Re:Gurps (Score:5, Insightful)
My GURPS GM ran with all kinds of mods, and you had to remember to ask about every little bonus or mention that you did something in a certain way or you'd always fail. So the game was dumb. My D&D GM's just ran the stupid game to make sure the players had fun. Ultimately, the rules should never interfere with your ability to have fun.
Re:Gurps (Score:3, Insightful)
I highly suggest checking out the state-of-the-art in RPG design, games like Dogs in the Vineyard, Weapons of the Gods, and the Burning Wheel.
All of these get away from the fairly antiquated idea of 'The GM tells the story and we play the main characters'.
Rather, by PLAYING the main characters, the players CREATE the story, and the GM's task is more supporting than guiding. These new games handle this in several ways.
The Burning Wheel is built with the
Re:Gurps (Score:2)
Frag - Doom 2 as a board game
Hacker - Uplink as a card/board game
Munchkin - Kill the monsters, Steal the treasure, Stab your buddy. distilled Essence Of RPG as a card game
Ogre - great introduction to tile based wargaming. simple mechanics, simple units
Re:Gurps (Score:2)
Re:Gurps (Score:2)
In order to play GURPS, you cut all of the sidebars off the main book and put them in a stack. Pick up the remaining book in one hand and the stack of sidebars in the other. Throw one way, which one doesn't matter.
Actually, a well run GURPS game, which doesn't get bogged down in the optional rule minutiae is a lot of fun. This is pretty much true of any system though. If you hav
Re:Gurps (Score:2)
Re:Gurps (Score:2)
Re:Gurps (Score:2)
ot quibble (Score:2)
Re:ot quibble (Score:2)
Re:ot quibble (Score:2)
Re:ot quibble (Score:2)
Re:Gurps (Score:2)
Re:Gurps (Score:2)
Not surprising due to the price. (Score:5, Informative)
ROI is the reason (Score:4, Informative)
Re:ROI is the reason (Score:4, Insightful)
In contrast, I pick up and look at Complete Warrior, see that it costs $35, and put it right back down. There's not even any consideration. I don't just play fighters, or wizards, or clerics, so I would want all of the books, and at $175, there's no chance in hell, so why bother with even one?
Price, demand and damned pricy printing (Score:2)
Sure, Harry Potter has about 10 times the pages and costs about a tenth. Harry Potter also sells about a million times more copies.
It's akin to the price problem with computer books. It simply isn't easy reading stuff.
Re:Price, demand and damned pricy printing (Score:2)
Granted, the video game industry is far more likely to gain major popular support than RPGs, and thus isn't a great comparison, but I know 10-20 people who really en
Re:Price, demand and damned pricy printing (Score:2)
I doubt that making the books cheaper would change that. Every remotely large town has some kind of RPG club where you could easily and cheaply get a hold of some books. Still I see the numb
Download the PDFs of the books... (Score:2)
Re:Download the PDFs of the books... (Score:2)
Re:Download the PDFs of the books... (Score:2)
Re:Download the PDFs of the books... (Score:2)
Re:Download the PDFs of the books... (Score:2)
Re:Download the PDFs of the books... (Score:3, Informative)
as an aside, only one person in my group buys a book, we then pass it around.
Re:Download the PDFs of the books... (Score:3, Insightful)
It is the consumer that should dete
Re:Download the PDFs of the books... (Score:2)
Re:Download the PDFs of the books... (Score:2)
I can accept this for Tabletop Adventures, Swords & Sorcery, maybe even White Wolf, or TSR back in the day, but not Wizards. They're owned by Hasbro, they have other sales, and large cash reserves. They could be the catalyst for lowering prices and bringing in new people. Instead, they ch
There's more to it. (Score:5, Informative)
Also, there is the fact that the industry moves in cicles. If you recall, there was a significant drop-off in the market during the late 80's and 90's, which would correspond to the time between the initial frenzy over 2nd edition and the release of 3rd. I think that the same thing is happening here, and that when 4th edition comes out, we'll see a big boom in the market again (at least for a few years).
Another factor this time is the sheer glut of 3rd edition materials that were released. Everyone and their brother jumped all over the open-source nature of the d20 system, so there's even more dross to sort through and more competition in the market than ever before.
Re:There's more to it. (Score:2)
Re:There's more to it. (Score:2)
As far as the bazillion D&D source books available now, at least those are guaranteed to be optional. In the MMOG sphere, SOE is releasing an average
Re:There's more to it. (Score:2)
Having played all of the above, as well as been a PnP roleplayer for going on 2 decades, I can say:
No, no they're not.
I'm still searching for that pure, quintessential role-playing experience, but looking for it in an MMO is definitely the wrong direction.
Re:Not surprising due to the price. (Score:2)
Did you try ebooks?
Almost all books on DriveThruRPG.com are in the 0-30$ range. (30$ for core books (and I prefer my core books in paper anyway), most add-ons are in the 5-20$ range). And most books are watermarked pdfs with no additional DRM.
Well, ok, not for WotC, from which there are only 7 products, all around 30$.
But other publishers are well presented, including Fanpro (Shadowrun) & White Wolf (World of Darkness).
Re:Not surprising due to the price. (Score:4, Insightful)
Now, it's an entirely different argument whether full color artwork, hardcovers, and glossy paper are really necessary for enjoyment of RPGs. Some people have come to expect them, but some see them as unecessary window dressing. I think the relative success of the RPG PDF industry (http://www.rpgnow.com/ [rpgnow.com] http://www.drivethrurpg.com/ [drivethrurpg.com] http://e23.sjgames.com/ [sjgames.com] etc.) is an indicator of that. By cutting out the cost of printing and distributing hard copy, you can get a searchable, cut and pasteable copy for usually half the cost of a hardcopy (even from Amazon). This isn't a perfect model--there's a lot of complaints about piracy, and most people don't game with a computer at the table. And some of the larger publishers are intentionally sandbagging PDF sales by pricing them at nearly the same cost as the hard copy (Fantasy Flight Games, I'm looking at you).
But as far as the small-press hobby publishers are concerned, I think PDFs are going to be the wave of the future (Add in the rise of very low print run Print on Demand services, and you can get a decent hard copy (softcover, black and white, perfect bound) for much less than you used to).
Much like my friends in electronic music production, technology is seriously lowering the bar for entry into RPG production. There's no equivalent of GarageBand (I guess you could call MS Word an entry-level RPG production toolkit, but it's certainly not RPG-specific), but there's a lot of innovation out there.
Law of Supply and Demand (Score:2)
Price... well, sometimes, it just isn't an object. (Score:2)
1.) Video Games. New computer every two or three years. Say 400 dollars a year. New console every three years. Another hundred. 'Bargain' games, 20 each, say one a month. 200 bucks a year. New releases, say, three times a year. 150. Makes about 850 a year. True, I also surf the web, pretend to get some work done, and pay some bills / do banking online. But I'm probably underestimating what I spend on the new computer, anyway, and I'm not including interne
Re:Price... well, sometimes, it just isn't an obje (Score:4, Insightful)
As far as time constraints, how much time do you spend playing video games? How much time do you spend watching TV, surfing the internet, reading a book, twiddling your thumbs, whatever? My friends and I play once a week, from 8-Midnight. Four hours is enough time to get in some good role-playing, do some exploring, find a few clues and get into a fight. It's a nice, well-rounded, enjoyable session, one that I can almost always end on a cliffhanger, and keep everyone's interest for the duration.
Now, I'm not trying to make this personal or anything, but it's just irritating to hear "I don't have time. I don't have friends that want to play. Other people must be the same way. That's what's wrong with the industry." You've got time, you've got friends, you just don't have the interest. Loss of interest is a real problem. Loss of interest is something that might be addressed, something that can be changed.
Sorry about that. I will agree, though, that P&PRPG companies have an uphill climb ahead of them, no matter how you slice it. It's a hobby that requires that one person either be able to pull stories out of thin air, or have a lot of time and patience for prep. It requires imagination and an attention span not often found in the age of TV. It requires a hefty entrance fee, when you take into consideration the fact that an RPG book has no other reasonable use except as an RPG book, whereas a gaming PC has many many other uses. Hell, even wargame miniatures can look cool on a shelf. The PHB is worthless if you're not actually playing D&D.
It doesn't surprise me that the P&P industry is in decline. I just think that, unlike player attention span, time constraints and storytelling ability, price is one of the factors that can be changed, and might make a difference if it was.
Re:Price... well, sometimes, it just isn't an obje (Score:2)
See, if you'd just put that, I probably wouldn't be so annoyed right now. It's great that you enjoy small games - I've tried it a few times, one GM and two or three players, and, personally, it sucks. I really enjoy playing with a larger group - when I go home to
why it's dying (Score:5, Insightful)
Same holds for D&D and all the others. Hell we have trouble getting three hours together for a poker game, much less a game of Risk or Conquest of the Roman Empire. RPGs are just out.
-nB
Re:why it's dying (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:why it's dying (Score:2)
What would be nice would be some sort of computer toolset where one person can DM and a lot of players can then compete/interact using the computer. I know I've seen projects for this type of management before, but I don't believe there's a computer, client interface.
With the increasing popularity of online games, it's probably easier to get a group of ten people if you inclu
Re:why it's dying (Score:2)
Re:why it's dying (Score:2)
Re:why it's dying (Score:2)
Long board games don't have that problem -- you finish one game, and the next time, it's all new. So you can play it at an entirely different party with different people and you do
Re:why it's dying (Score:2)
On the topic of board games, although the set up does take a little while, I recommend Heroscape.
Re:why it's dying (Score:2)
In that case the obvious solution is a program that allows playing online, and preferably a matching service as well.
I've always wanted to try D&D (or GURPS or whatever), but I just don't know any people IRL who might be interested. And even if I did, I'd really not care much for hack'n-slash - I can get that from the computer easy enough. No, I'd like to play an ancient lich p
Re:why it's dying (Score:2)
It's dying because we don't need them anymore! (Score:2)
Re:It's dying because we don't need them anymore! (Score:2)
A truer statement has never existed. I have way more dice than I'll truly ever use, but I just love getting more. Heck, I even picked up a novelty set of pewter dice, which actually roll rather nicely; but, considering that we tend to game on a glass table top(it's what we have), they don't get used.
Quick show of hands, how many people here own a D100 or D30? How many actually use them, other than as projectiles?
Re:It's dying because we don't need them anymore! (Score:2)
Re:It's dying because we don't need them anymore! (Score:2)
Re:It's dying because we don't need them anymore! (Score:2)
I'm considered one of the more dice-cheap of those I game with. I only have about 92.
Re:why it's dying (Score:2)
A quality not found in many people today.
Re:why it's dying (Score:2)
. . . [T]he simple truth is that I can not get enough people together long enough to play this game. Same holds for D&D and all the others. Hell we have trouble getting three hours together for a poker game . . .
And yet golf is still very popular, which requires (generally) getting you and three of your friends / colleagues / business prospects / etc. out on the fairways for 5-6 hours, plus lunch, plus beer, plus time on the driving range, plus... :)
(Yes, I'm a geek, read /., and play golf. The
Re:why it's dying (Score:2)
Re:What are friends for? (Score:2)
Re:What are friends for? (Score:2)
We have a healthy gamer population at work
In fact we regularly play Who's the ass, Dalmuti, and our own variations at lunch.
-nB
Re:What are friends for? (Score:2)
-nB
Re:What are friends for? (Score:2)
Stunning Development (Score:3, Insightful)
I thought after the first few it was pretty much guys self-publishing their home game campaigns, unlike the good old 80's when variety [aol.com] thrived [judgesguild.com].
Burning Wheel (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, WotC also has the problem of selling a durable good: these books don't just wear out. Once they're sold, they're on the market forever. No gamer will ever buy more than one. They've tried to mitigate this with tricks like "3.5th edition," but few gamers ever bothered updating. Throw in the rampant piracy of the books and rules themselves, and there's really no way WotC can continue with D&D as it is.
(I prefered AD&D 2nd Edition anyway ^_~)
Piracy (Score:2)
I have a set of 3E hardbacks, but they're very heavy to carry to a game. I wanted to buy searchable PDF copies of 3.5E.
Guess what? WotC won't sell the 3E rules as e-books. Not for any price. So I was forced to seek out unauthorized copies, or make do with the SRD.
Re:Piracy (Score:2)
Re:Piracy (Score:2)
Re:Burning Wheel (Score:2, Funny)
Yes, because WotC didn't figure out a way to attach a collectible addicting sidecar that ties into the "core" D&D market, providing a reliable income cash cow for the D&D division, and allowing it to remain a profitable concern until they really do want to do a fourth edition.
Yes, D&D Miniatures are the saving grace of D&D.
New hotness... well, y'see...
Let's use a metap^H^H^H^H^Hsimile...
The original D&D was like the Apple II.
AD&D was like original Macintoshes.
AD&D 2e, like
Re:OGL? (Score:2)
That is, while I can't give away detailed descriptions of the cities in Ebberon, it's perfectly okay for me to use one of any number of free [wizards.com], searchable [d20srd.org] online databases.
please correct me. I assume I'm missing somethi
Re:wha? (Score:2)
If the OS code were forced to be open, I wonder how long before things like IE, the standard shell, the window manager, explorer, and more and more and everything that is "windows" and "is so ingrained into the operating system that it cannot possibly be seperated" [p.s.: anyone who though MS should be forced to not distribute IE with windows is an ass-weilding asstard w
Re:wha? (Score:2)
Re:Burning Wheel (Score:2)
Genre can't support an industry (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Genre can't support an industry (Score:2)
Wow. I guess the age before collecting card games is prehistory, now.
Re:Genre can't support an industry (Score:2)
Sure, there was a decade or so of some success, but it wasn't sustainable. At least, it wasn't sustainable from a growth standp
Re:Genre can't support an industry (Score:2)
MTG arrives and bang, there goes the neighborhood. Wave of companies folding.
I wasn't a major player by an
Re:Genre can't support an industry (Score:2)
MTG's effects were clear and openly known and discussed in the game industry. Game store owners loved it: Sales went up 50% or more. Except that what really happened was that game store sales of Magic and competitors went up to about 75-100% of prior sales levels, and the sales of miniatures and paper/dice roleplaying games dropped 25% to
Re:Genre can't support an industry (Score:2)
Similarly, if you want to look at RPGs, you have to INCLUDE all the fiction books, online tie-ins, and other related marketing stuff that is derived from the paper-and-pencil games.
Once you do that, you have a viable industry, not a niche.
Oh man (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Oh man (Score:2)
That would probably be White Wolf. Something like "OMG: the Ponies".
However, it might possibly end up like this [somethingpositive.net]... No, you can't be Skullfucker Bear.
Meh (Score:4, Interesting)
What TFA mostly failed to mention was the extraordinary progress in indie RPG design over the last few years. The indies may not be raking in money hand over fist, but that hasn't stopped them creating some very good games (Vincent Baker's Dogs in the Vineyard [lumpley.com] and Matt Wilson's Primetime Adventures [dog-eared-designs.com], f'rinstance) and, more importantly, getting a solid theoretical handle on what RPGs are about and how they work. What Lajos Egri did for playwriting and Robert McKee did for screenwriting, these guys are doing for RPGs. I've been following the industry since the early 1980s, and the last few years have been a real eyeopener. No, the GM is not God. Yes, system does matter. No, throwing together a huge heap of rules and expecting fun to magically fall out is not going to cut it.
Cool, a Firefly/Serenity RPG! (Score:2)
I think it's no accident that the Firefly party consists of three fighters (each with a different specialization), a healer, a priest, an empath, a mechanic and an "a
Re:Cool, a Firefly/Serenity RPG! (Score:2)
Not quite the first time, I don't think. The main crew in Farscape was pretty much a classic AD&D party - at least, during the first couple seasons.
Re:Cool, a Firefly/Serenity RPG! (Score:2)
Zhaan - Priest
Chiana - Rogue
Aeryn - Warrior/Bruiser
John - ??? (Warrior? Wormhole Wizard?)
Rigel - ??? (Rogue?)
Those last two are giving me trouble.
Re:Cool, a Firefly/Serenity RPG! (Score:2)
It's a good party, but... a bit crowded, unless you've got a lot of meatspace geek friends.
If you're doing the space cowboy thing with a lower headcount, you might reconfigure that to two fighters (one quite a brawler, the other all about finesse), one hacker, one femme fatale...
Hero Games (Score:2)
It doesn't mean role playing is dying (Score:3, Insightful)
One factor might be supply and demand. There are a million and one zero cost systems out there, not to mention the wealth of OGL suppliments and modifications. Why spend $90 on the Core Three Books when you can get what you need for a third of the cost or less with a similar, lesser known system?
Another factor might be the shift toward more collaborative storytelling with less mechanics, like FUDGE, FATE, or RISUS. These games are *fun* and involve significantly less algebra to play than any D&D edition I can think of. They're also much faster to learn, in part because they require a creative--rather than encyclopedic--understanding of how the game works.
<plug>
Anyone interested in pen and paper role playing might also enjoy my podcast, Dice Make Bonk.
</plug>
Re:status of... (Score:2)
Re:status of... (Score:2)
Got your own ideas for "OMG PONIES!" signs?
Re:status of... (Score:2)
Re:Pilot felt-tip pens... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Pilot felt-tip pens... (Score:2)
Re:Pilot felt-tip pens... (Score:2)
Re:Pilot felt-tip pens... (Score:2)
Re:Pen and paper? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Pen and paper? (Score:2)