Sony DRM and the New Digital Hole 184
expro writes "If the root kit scandal was not enough for Sony, Time Magazine reports that it is a delay in 'the release of copy-protection software required for the PS3's game and high-definition movie discs' giving Microsoft a serious advantage in the market place. Is there something Sony should be learning here about preoccupation copy control? With high definition writable media appearing already, will the price drop soon enough to help me overcome the real obstacle to backing up my exsisting commercial DVDs, cost of single media large enough to hold them that is playable in a player? Will the resulting new digital hole in copying existing DVD schemes to higher-density media replace the analog hole of VCRs in copying movies?"
Microsoft? Who knew! (Score:5, Insightful)
Is there something Sony should be learning? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not saying corporations are always right or always do the right thing, but when it comes to making money, Sony usually gets it right, and I don't think one self-important slashdotter speculating otherwise carries much weight compared to a financial beast that's been generating astoundingly large piles of cash for the past long while.
Re:Is there something Sony should be learning? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Is there something Sony should be learning? (Score:5, Insightful)
The negative PR Sony gets in geekland is outweighed by the average consumer's perception of the quality of Sony products. Sony's rootkit was absolutely unacceptable, but don't think Sony didn't already know that.
You'll never know what your boundaries are unless you surpass them. This way, when they slowly reintroduce the same technology years later when DRM and consumer hard-drive snooping has become largely perfunctory, they can measure how far they've come.
Re:Maybe it is just me waking up (Score:2, Insightful)
HINT, PEOPLE (Score:1, Insightful)
After all, they did much better than MS last time and MS had the more powerful machine. Even with the major power gap between the PS2 and the 360 they're still a player, they don't need to bring out PS3 at the moment. Also they're a Japan-centric company, in Japan (where I currently am, this isn't just forum bullshit) the PS2 is still king console and the 360 isn't doing well at all. Final Fantasy 12 is the game here.
(p.s. Nintendo fanboy, = neutrality
Devkits in June! Truth is Cell and tools are late. (Score:5, Insightful)
Sony is late with everything most likely the Cell processors and the programming tools for it. DRM is just a smokescreen, handy because really did have issues with both HD/BD getting it finalized, but it is now.
But in Sonys case it is a very stupid excuse, give the rootkit problems. Many people will percieve this is Sony being late so they can figure out new ways to screw us over with DRM. They really need new marketing droids before they release lame excuses like this.
This isn't the first time... (Score:3, Insightful)
There were many times before the arrival of the Ipod that Sony had the best looking Mp3 players, and they always seemed to have the features I wanted. However, they made the idiotic move of making a user convert all of his songs to the ATRAC3 format. Seriously, who wants to deal with that crap? So what happens? Smaller players move in and dominate.
Betamax Revisited (Score:5, Insightful)
Now lets got to the real issue here. Which will consumers prefer? An expensive, poorly designed piece of technology, or something that is no more difficult to adopt than what they currently have. Most computers have issues playing non-DRM protected HDTV content let alone one that is. I bought the new special edition Terminator II that had the metal case and the high-def version. My computer was brand new at the time and it wouldn't even play it because of the DRM.
So what new format will we choose to distribute the next generation of media? Will it be Bluray or HD-DVD? Maybe neither! There are competing technologies out there that are capable of high-def right now without the need of clunky, ill-deigned DRM software. There's Xvid, DivX, etc, why PAY for proprietary forms of media you can't even bring to your SO's apartment to watch? That was the beauty of VHS, you could record stuff off of tv CHEAPLY, there was ONE format in video stores.
All of this just leads to confusion for the consumer. The new DVD format should piggyback on the old technology and be founded on OPEN standards. History will repeat itself with Sony's proprietary formats. Early adopters of Bluray will be throwing out their money. It will be at least 5 years before HD is fully mainstream. The majority of the movies out there will not benefit from being in HD.
Do you honestly think seeing Gone With the Wind will be better in HD?
Re:Sony has lost it's edge (Score:5, Insightful)
Sony... the guys who brought us very expensive DVD players that wouldn't read CD-R/DVD+-R media (on purpose of course). This one really upset me. I couldn't play my DVD's slideshows and movies that I made on my computer on my Sony player.
Sony, the guys who brought us the Sony Memory Stick and Magic Gate copy protection aka "Slow and Lame."
Sony, the guys who just released the "iPOD Killer" that can't even play MP3's and requires converting them to Sony's proprietary format (because it's better right?).
Sony, the guys who make TV's that enforce macrovision so strictly that they sometimes don't work with DVD players and legal DVDs. Can anyone say, RF adaptor? Should one really need to purchase an RF adaptor just to get the Sony DVD player and Sony TV to work together? Jeez....
First and second generation HDTVs which won't play at full resolution with new devices because of what they call the "ANALOG HOLE".
Sony the guys who make video cameras that shutoff if accidentally pointed towards a TV screen playing a DVD (say during your child's birthday party).
Sony is capable of making a good product, but don't expect it to be flexible. If you use your Sony product as they deem you should use it (strictly buying their content), then you're fine. Stray outside the lines slightly and it will become a source of aggravation. I realize Sony has become more flexible lately because their electronics division has been suffering, but I will not forgive the sins of the past 4-5 years so easily due to the amount of hard earned cash that I feel was wasted. I will never buy into another proprietary Sony standard just because they want CONTROL nor will I buy another Sony device that doesn't allow what I consider "fair use". I really feel sorry for the people who have been buying with the Sony credit cards and now have accumulated Sony points.
Re:Sony has lost it's edge (Score:2, Insightful)
MiniDisc would be one. Sony's idea of an "MP3 Player" was software that transcodes Atrac to MP3 in realtime for an MD player. In its time MiniDisc was a nicely engineered format. The physical media could hold quite a lot and the Atrac codecs weren't bad at all. But Sony was so petrified of piracy that they stymied the obvious PC applications. MD never succeeded in being more than a niche technology.
"MD drives" should have been out in the mid nineties. If Sony weren't totally myopic on the subject of piracy there never would have been SD and Zip disks, at least not successful ones. They also could have gotten one hell of a lot of the money that went to CD burners and blanks. Of course flash tech would have supplanted it too but it would have been a hell of a run. As it is, the market chose more flexible technologies.
I only knew one person who owned an MD player. He liked it but when technology moved on he did too.
Re:The underlying problem is still piracy. (Score:5, Insightful)
I have a two year old daughter. She's fond of Monster's Inc., Yellow Submarine and those damned Baby Einstein DVDs. She's also fond of touching the disks themselves. I own legally purchased store-bought copies of all the aforementioned titles. You think my desire to back them up is nonsense? Now THAT's nonsense!
SONY is a hydra (Score:5, Insightful)
Let me illustrate with an example: Sony regularly names Sony as a defendant in copyright lawsuits.
Sony Corporation is: several mini-divisions of Sony Electronics (Walkmans, stereo gear, camcorders, TVs, phones, not to mention an entire division dedicated to pro-level broadcast hardware and Betacam SP); a large media arm in Sony-BMG Music Group which has its own problems, Sony's movie studio - again, schizo in performance but huge and sprawling; Sony's various software divisions (SCE*), in NA, Japan, and Europe; 'online' or SonyConnect verisons for each of those again...not to mention weirdo initiatives like Sony Ericsson (very successful)...
You see where I'm going with this. Here's an article [post-gazette.com] that does a good job summing it up.
It is pointless to discuss an entity called SONY as if it were a coherent entity. It is more like the EU. Very competitive, aligned loosely, but basically all fighting each other tooth and nail for internal dominance, which usually translates to external dominance. This has been Sony's culture for a long time, only recently changing under their new CEO (a Welsh guy, another first for the corporation).
If you ask Sony's hardware guys about the iPod, most of them will readily concede that they were soundly thrashed by Apple. iPod is the new Walkman, no doubt. Sony could have competed with Apple if they didn't have the content arms sniping at them throughout the development process (and also if they had let go of certain insane engineers who loved minidisc a little too much).
So when you guys are boycotting Sony products - a principal I do not disagree with - I do have to wonder a little if you know exactly what you are boycotting. Sony-BMG are bastards, I deal with them all the time and they really just are the epitome of the 'evil record label'. Sony hardware is a completely different entity, and they more or less hate Sony-BMG as well. When you stop buying Sony TVs and whatnot, you are actually punishing the guys who are (now somewhat successfully) pushing against the DRM in the hardware. They hate this shit, and they know what consumers want (mostly...). DRM comes from the media arms, and its dictating product design inside Sony, and that is the battle.
What I am saying is, you need the carrot and the stick. Don't buy Sony-BMG music, they cam eup with the rootkit. DO buy those Sony products that are free of DRM. The message will be clear. I have a Sony Ericsson phone (W600i) and it does not have any DRM for loading and playing music, short of the veil necessary to keep you from beaming pre-canned content into other phones. it actually is the iTunes phone that everyone wanted, and no one shipped, including Motorola/Apple. My iTunes collection, all uninfected MP3 and AAC, loads (both directions) and plays beautifully.
Sony Electronics has typically kept the underperforming divisions from showing up more drastically on the balance sheet (PS2) but they are suffering now as well. Let's hope the hardware guys win over the media guys.
Re:The underlying problem is still piracy. (Score:5, Insightful)
Nobody WANTS DRM.
Nonsense. The media companies love DRM because of the market control it gives them.
willingness of ordinary people to engage in acts of willful copyright infringement
Gosh, when the vast majority of people disagree with your view of the world then maybe it's your view which is at fault?
People have been sharing with friends and acquaintances since the dawn of time.
the underlying problem is still the willingness of ordinary people to engage in acts of willful copyright infringement simply on the basis of the belief that their chances of being caught are low.
No, the underlying problem is IP companies who feel they have a right to unlimited profits for the one piece of work at the expense of the general population. And due to broken IP law are currently getting away with it.
There is also a problem with lying astroturfers [wikipedia.org] who fraudulently misrepresent company propaganda as a personal opinion and also repeatedly spam discussion groups with their propaganda but that's another story.
---
It's wrong that an intellectual property creator should not be rewarded for their work.
It's equally wrong that an IP creator should be rewarded too many times for the one piece of work, for exactly the same reasons.
Reform IP law and stop the M$/RIAA abuse.
Re:The underlying problem is still piracy. (Score:3, Insightful)
The fact of the matter is that, whatever pseudophilosophical bullshit exceptions people give here
You do realize that copyright itself counts as a "pseudophilosophical bullshit exception" to physical reality, right? You don't have a natural "right" to control copying and distribution of something just because you happened to put a particular combination of words/notes together, of which 99.99% of your "creation" already existed just under the surface of the culture that spawned you? You only have some protection because society as a whole values your work in entertaining us and, however little, for enriching our culture as a whole. Shift the balance just the teensiest bit, and the only justification of your copy-"right" vanishes like the fiction on which we've based it.
(such as the "wink wink" 'backing up my DVDs' nonsense of the submitter)
Some people will pirate movies. Some people really just want to back them up . Most of us fall somewhere between those two, wanting backups of our own movies, and not really caring if we have a few copied movies or CDs for which we don't own the original. Almost all of us prefer to reward the creator, however, thus the delicate balance we have between copy rights and fair-use rights. To repeat, don't mistake a copy-right as a natural right; it exists only at the whim of society as a whole.
It doesn't matter if you think 70 years is too long for copyright.
True, it doesn't - Nor does it matter if you think it too short, or just right. My previous point will hold whether you make copyright last forever, or for a week. Deal.
mindless overcommercialized shite and that somehow justifies your piracy.
Who needs justification? You seem to have missed the point. We. Don't. Care. "They" have failed to act in good faith in upholding their end of the social contract implicit in copyrights. "We" have started responding in kind. "They" will lose.
You are not engaging in meaningful rebellion against 'the corporate overlords' by engaging in software piracy. you are not gandhi.
"meaning" exists after-the-fact, and the victors get to define it. Ghandi promoted passive terrorism, tax evasion, and open sedition. But he won, so we think of him as some sort of frickin' saint.
You help no artist with your piracy, period.
Heard of Galactic Civilizations II? You might have, it made it to the Slashdot FP recently. Or LsL:LotLL? Or for a more blunt example, heard of Microsoft Windows, probably the single most pirated yet best-selling product line in the history of computers? Not that I really care, though - Just because you have that particular point wrong doesn't mean its truth has any influence on this topic.
It is not possible to successfully find some 'loophole' in the concept of fair use. There's simply no such thing because fair use by definition is a fungible thing
I would like to see your definition of "fungible". However, I will agree that you can't find loopholes in fair-use, because fair-use itself exists as nothing more than the holes in copyright law. But to repeat myself yet again, what you consider "fair" use really doesn't matter, because we define collectively which fictions we allow to remain codified as law, and individually which ones we adhere to.
Yes, companies occasionally trip over themselves and make mistakes while trying to protect their goods. but making that the central issue (as slashdot always does) as opposed to addressing the fundamental problem is just wrong.
I agree completely. The "fundamental problem" here involves the idea that we grant corporeal status and human rights to non-human groups assembled for the solue purpose of extracting profit from society. Yet the same penalties we can apply to humans cannot, in practice, apply to corporations. Thus we have a problem.
Re:The underlying problem is still piracy. (Score:3, Insightful)
It is not possible to successfully find some 'loophole' in the concept of fair use. There's simply no such thing because fair use by definition is a fungible thing that relies on reasonable human judgment to decide when too much is too much. Therefore, the very fact that you attempt to use some loophole pretty much in itself no longer makes your actions fair use.
What on earth do you think you are talking about. No one in their right mind would go looking for a loophole in a concept. The idea of a loophole is that a badly drafted law may allow for it to be interpreted in a way that it wasn't intended, thus allowing an action which would otherwise be prohibited. Surely you can tell the difference between the concept of fair use and a legal definition of fair use. To argue something is falls under the concept of fair use is not looking for a loophole it is just giving an example of an action which a person considers a definition of fair use should cover. To look for a loophole in a legal definition of fair use in order to cover an action that falls under the concept of fair use is a legitimate thing to do. It does not make that action non fair use, it merely extends the legal definition of fair use such that it falls more into line with how a reasonable person might define fair use.
Secondly, you use the word fungible but it does not mean what you think it means. Nothing in and of itself is fungible, you need at least two things for them to be fungible. These two things must be interchangeable in regard to a legal obligation. For example say I go into a store and ask for a copy of a particular CD, and the shop has three copies of that CD in stock. These three CD's are fungible because any one of the three will satisfy my order. Similarly I may pay by cash or credit card, these are fungibles because either is sufficient to satisfy my debt for the CD. What exactly are you saying fair use is fungible with, or were you just using a big word in order to sound impressive.
Re:The underlying problem is still piracy. (Score:2, Insightful)
Though, I really love your touching heartfelt story of your daughter, her love for monsters inc, and her coiincidental love of touching the disks themselves. how convenient!
Re:Microsoft? Who knew! (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Microsoft? Who knew! (Score:4, Insightful)
There's already a solution... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Microsoft? Who knew! (Score:4, Insightful)