PS2 Controller Suit Goes Badly For Sony 197
Immersion Corp, which owns the patent on 'rumble' technology, has won another round in its suit against Sony. Sony's 'dualshock' controller has used rumble technology for years, and in 2005 a judge awarded $82 Million to the patent-holder in payment. From the article: "Sony's defence was the alleged nondisclosure of some of the inventions of key employee Craig Thorner. who has been a consultant both for Immersion and subsequently for Sony. But, according to the report, U.S. District Judge Claudia Wilken was unhappy with Thorner's testimony supporting Sony, given that he had also been paid by Sony, and so dismissed this line of defence."
This is just ridiculous (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:This is just ridiculous (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:This is just ridiculous (Score:3, Informative)
But seriously, vibrators have been used for years in mining, as well as fruit picking...
http://www.clevelandvibrator.com/ [clevelandvibrator.com] (Yes, it is suitable for work- it is a company that has, since 1923, made industrial vibrators)
Re:This is just ridiculous (Score:2)
Woot. Industrial strength vibrator!!
(btw. Dude.. thanks a bunch for the popup spam (brought up the winfixer spam that somehow bypasses the firefox popup blocker, than failed to load the page so I can't even see if it's a legit site). Pick your sites more carefully in future.)
Re:This is just ridiculous (Score:2)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WinFixer [wikipedia.org]
So do *not* click the above link.
Re:This is just ridiculous (Score:2)
http://www.clevelandvibrator.com/
Is a site of a Cleveland Company.
If you don't believe me, here is a link to a website that mentions it: http://www.directindustry.com/soc/cleveland-vibra t or/pneumatic-ball-vibrator-14397-104376.html [directindustry.com]
I would not link to a malware site...
Yes,there is a product called a ball vibrator.
Here is the text from the homepage-
Cleveland Vibrator Expertise Since 1923
pneumatic vibrators for industry Industrial Vibrators
Re:This is just ridiculous (Score:5, Insightful)
NB I dont know exactly waht the patent says, the above is simply an example as to how a patent can be applied to a new usage from old techniques.
Re:This is just ridiculous (Score:2)
Re:This is just ridiculous (Score:2)
If it was so bloody obvious, why did nobody get the idea to do it before Nintendo came along with the RumblePak (which predates Immersion's patents but covers a different implementation)?
I have the idea of opening a hardware store in some small town that's hasn't had a hardware store since it was established hundreds of years ago. By your reasoning I should be able to get a patent on that idea so nobody can create a competitor without licensing from me at my price in that town. After all, I invested sig
contrary to slashdot likes to group think (Score:2)
How these particular products vibrates is the patent.
There has yet to be any prior art found on this implementation, and several controller makers have tried.
Re:This is just ridiculous (Score:2, Interesting)
For the simple reason that a cell phone or a pager uses the vibration feature as a form of display, not interaction. The patent covers force feedback, not simple vibration. This is why vibrators and pagers aren't covered in the patent. Neither of which vibrate because you're controlling an entity within a video game.
You see, patents are typically pretty darn specific. Wanna
Re:This is just ridiculous (Score:2)
Re:This is just ridiculous (Score:2)
Re:This is just ridiculous (Score:2)
Re:This is just ridiculous (Score:1)
Re:This is just ridiculous (Score:1)
Re:This is just ridiculous - not really (Score:5, Informative)
I dont think Newton had a video game system or a force-feedback controller. The scope of a patent is determined by its claims, not based on what a slashdot summary says. The claims of this patent are limited to a force-feedback controller
Sony could have licensed this patent for a few dollars several years ago (like everyone else did), but instead they relied on a frivolous legal theory (inequitable conduct) to invalidate the patent. Despite attempts by numerous big companies to invalidate this patent based on prior art, no one has ever located any meaningful prior art. The only issue in Sony's case was inequitable conduct (lying to the patent office), and the only evidence Sony presented was testimony from an "expert" they paid.
Re:This is just ridiculous - not really (Score:2)
Metal Gear Solid (Score:2)
Snake Fights Pyscho Mantis.
Psycho Mantis takes over the controller and makes it vibrate
So you're fighting against the controller.
Re:This is just ridiculous - not really (Score:2)
Sorry, but since when was a patent's validity determined soley by the existence of prior art? Non-obvious is also a requirement.
Sony don't have a "force feed-back" system as I understand it - think the steering wheel controller in the force-feedback steering wheel in Hard Drivin' in the arcades that made it hard to stear if you went of the road - what Sony have is a cont
Re:This is just ridiculous - not really - really (Score:2)
What a load of utter bollocks. Sorry to be so blunt but it's the only way to describe how utterly wrong you are. Immersion do a lot of business in medical simulation tech where realistic force feedback is absolutely critical and as far as I'm aware they are the world leaders in the field.
Re:This is just ridiculous (Score:2)
Nintendo has a rumbling implementation as well, yet they never got sued. Only a part of it was that Immersion got their patent a year or so after Nintendo made their implementation.. the other piece is that Nintendo's works much differently than what Immersion patented.
Sony (and Microsoft) however, ripped off Immersion's implementation. Microsoft knew they had no case, so settled. Sony thought they did, and put them where they are
Hmm (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Hmm (Score:2)
Re:Hmm (Score:2, Funny)
Prior Art (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Prior Art (Score:2)
PS2 Controller Suit... (Score:5, Funny)
Am I the only one who read this and instantly imagined this jump-suit that you'd wear that could maybe read your arm and leg positions to put you directly control your PS2?
Instead we get details of some bogus lawsuit about bogus stuff that we really don't care about.
Whatever happened to cool stuff?
Re:PS2 Controller Suit... (Score:4, Funny)
(If you have heard of it, then you still know why.)
Re:PS2 Controller Suit... (Score:2)
Re:PS2 Controller Suit... (Score:2)
Re:PS2 Controller Suit... (Score:1)
The lawyers petitioned the court for injunctive relief regarding the disclosure of information that may comprise in whole or part "cool stuff".
Nintendo (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Nintendo (Score:1)
Re:Nintendo (Score:1)
Re:Nintendo (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Nintendo (Score:1)
Re:Nintendo (Score:2)
That would be cool for the new Revolution controllers.
Re:Nintendo (Score:2)
Re:Nintendo (Score:2)
So ... we should run out and try to patent the three weight configuration now? Jump the gun and go straight for four? Is the single-weight version already patented?
Can I patent a new XZylophone which is just like a Xylophone but has
Re:Nintendo (Score:4, Interesting)
That's why when you write a patent, you try to make its claims as broad as possible (e.g., "...for configurations of 3 or more razor blades," or in the context of this article, "...for configurations of 2 or more unbalanced weights driven by electric motors."), and when you're trying to work around someone else's patent, you find all the loopholes and exploit them (e.g., "Oh, look, they didn't cover the case for a single unbalanced weight!").
I used to work for a material scientist who was adept at both activities. He was very good at finding corner cases where other people's patents didn't apply, and then he'd file a patent on the corner case as an improvement to the original patent he was working around. Current patent law allows you to patent improvements to someone else's patented invention or process. (Traditionally, "process" means manufacturing process, although business process patents now seem to be allowed.)
My boss was also good at making his own patents nice and broad to insure that his competitors would violate his IP. He had this fabulous patent on a method for growing a crystalline probe that would be formed on the end of a fiber optic cable. The probe had a face that was at a specific angle with respect to the long axis of the crystal, which he calculated to be the optimal angle for this face, but his patent was written to allow for a range of angles. Sure enough, some company that was using this technology to probe oil wells violated my boss' patent, and of course he went after them to defend his IP. The competitor's product, IIRC, didn't use the optimal angle for the crystal face, but it didn't matter, as they still were within the claims of the patent.
Of course, there are some modifications which are materially insignificant -- like how many legs your apparatus has to stand off the ground -- but most patent authors these days like to leave nothing to chance.
Re:Nintendo (Score:2)
See how silly that sounds? Like making a car with five wheels and then saying the four wheel patent does not apply to it.
Re:Nintendo (Score:2)
You're exactly wrong. I don't know if you're trying to be funny or if you make a point of talking about things you know nothing about.
Re:Nintendo (Score:2)
Re:Nintendo (Score:2)
So will the ps3 come with a triple-shock controller?
Re:Nintendo (Score:2)
Fortunately, an industry insider has been granted access to a beta version of this rumored "Triple Shock controller". He has generously taken a photograph of this top-secret prototype, which can be found here. [axess.com]
Re:You have got to be kidding me (Score:2)
Re:You have got to be kidding me (Score:2)
If the same rules applied to copyrights, could I claim that yes, indeed, the original game was copyrighted, but the game + crack that I downloaded is different because it's now cracked, and thus, not copyright infringement?
And how's that offtopic?
Re:Nintendo (Score:2, Insightful)
Nintendo escaped because the Rumble Pak wasn't actually built into the controller. (Same goes for the Dreamcast.) Now you know why that functionality wasn't simply built in.
Re:Nintendo (Score:2)
Could this.. (Score:5, Interesting)
This doesn't by any means overshadow the other hardware-related, possible causes for the delays, but might this be a contributing factor no one has mentioned previously?
-NIs
Re:Could this.. (Score:1)
It'd be akin to halting the rollout of a new car because the hubcaps aren't paid for.
Re:Could this.. (Score:2)
Re:Could this.. (Score:2)
Re:Could this.. (Score:2)
I wonder how long ago.... (Score:2)
Re:I wonder how long ago.... (Score:2)
The dual shock design has two motors for vibration, and IIRC they're mounted along different axes so you can have multi-dimensional vibrational feedback. I think it's a bit of a stretch to call this true "force feedback," but whatever. (To my mind, force feedback implies that you push on a control and it "pushes back," like steering wheels that simulate difficult turns and joysticks that simulate a stuck rudder or elevator on an a
In perspective (Score:5, Interesting)
We're talking about 1.37% of revenue:
FTA
In the last ruling against Sony, made in early 2005, Judge Claudia Wilken of the U.S. District Court levied an $82 million award to Immersion Corp., or 1.37% of Sony's sales of PlayStations and PlayStation-related paraphernalia. The $82 million is less than the $299 million originally sought by Immersion Corp., but the court ruled that Sony's infringement of the vibration patents was not willful and therefore not deserving of the full penalties.
Re:In perspective (Score:2)
Re:In perspective (Score:2)
NO (Score:2)
No, we're talking about $82 million. That's a huge number both in absolute terms and as a patent infringement verdict. There are only a handful of verdicts that have been larger.
It's also not clear that the relevant percentage should be total playstation sales rather than controller sales. Under the Fonar and Bose standard, to use the entire market sales as the base for royalties, the infringer must show that the market was caused by the infringing device. There are lot
Another one?! (Score:1)
Time to dust off the old tin foil hat, I guess.
prior art (Score:1)
Re:prior art (Score:2)
The technical mechanism for creating the vibration is what is patented.
No prior art has been found for this device. If I come up with a new way to make the controller vibrate, then I could patent that.
That like say a tire company can't patent it's tire technology because there is prior art on the wheel.
Bad Year (Score:5, Insightful)
Format Wars
Xbox 360 popularity
Rootkitting CD's
PS3 delays
Ipod (yes this is bad for Sony)
Lawsuits from vendors
All this bad publicity surely can't be doing the company any good. At this point in time, the CEO would be sacked at most companies i am aware of, but it's not happening here. you have to wonder if the morale within the company is any good also. I hope their lawyers get paid well.
They Still Have Japan Cornerd (Score:3, Informative)
Here's a sample of XBox360 sale data in japan
http://www.craxtion.com/content/view/133/2/ [craxtion.com]
Even the launch was horrid:
http://news.com.com/Study+Xbox+360+sales+start+slo w+in+Japan/2100-1043_3 [com.com]
Re:They Still Have Japan Cornerd (Score:3, Informative)
Re:They Still Have Japan Cornered (Score:2, Interesting)
Dreamcast (Score:2)
The one year headstart, and the "100%" marketshare on nextgen isn't that big a deal as it may seem.
Re:Dreamcast (Score:2)
I got a PlayStation when they were first $99.00 (I think right before or after the PS2 launch, but I forget), the Dreamcast was a comparable price, but it was someone else getting it fo me, they asked if I wanted a Seaga Dreamcast, and I said I don't want that POS (thinking is was a Saturn, it had been years since I had heard the name and cound't remember it, also, the most recent Sega system I had even seen was the Genisis).
It took me about a few months to realize my mistake (powerstone at an arcad
Xbox 360 what? (Score:2)
Sales have been low (restricted supply), and the games are nearly all really bad, and they're $60!
360 has been a flop so far. Although I like the hardware by and large. Enjoyable experience overall.
Wow... Sony lost twice! (Score:4, Funny)
I guess you could call that a double blow.
Or maybe even a dual shock! LOL!! :)
more prior art? (Score:5, Funny)
I had a vibraiting game controller in the late eighties. It was called a pager.
See, I'd give my secret code to some fly hunny; then it'd rumble right before I was about to score!
They even called me a player.
I think the language is similar enough to claim prior art. :)
(FYI for anyone else thinking about picking up this game: Make sure to use a shield in the final encounter or you might play out your days with a permanent chance-on-pee to self inflict fire damage.)
And Sony just doesn't have the brains to simply... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Sleazbags (Score:1, Insightful)
Wow
Re:Sleazbags (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Sleazbags (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Sleazbags (Score:2, Interesting)
If the concept of having two unbalanced motors on different axes is patentable, does someone already have a patent on three?
Also, if I go to my local electronics supply store, pick up two DC motors, some weights, a battery pack, and a project case and connect it all together, would I be in violation of the patent?
Re:Sleazbags-Corporate Condoms. (Score:2)
retard
Re:Wow, this one was tough! (Score:3, Funny)
I think two words aught to help you: "root" and "kit". Companies like Immersion arn't exactly nice, but Sony is worse.
Re:Wow, this one was tough! (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Wow, this one was tough! (Score:2)
Re:Wow, this one was tough! (Score:2)
Re:Wow, this one was tough! (Score:2)
Now, this story isn't completely off subject. You see, there was an arcade just a stones throw away from this restaurant, and after wolfing down the food, I'd beg mother dearest for a few dollars to
Re:Wow, this one was tough! (Score:2)
Hell no. Cross licensing!
How do you think they make it to the pay-stall in time?
Re:Wow, this one was tough! (Score:2, Insightful)
Explain how this is a bad patent.
Vibration has been used for feedback for ages, though not in game controllers.
This explanation is not sufficient. Where has vibration been used for feedback? Was it an intentional or incidental feature? Was it invariably caused by a condition or event, or was it arbitrarily triggered by an intentionally designed condition?
Better yet, since we're discussing a patent, was the
Re:Wow, this one was tough! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Wow, this one was tough! (Score:2)
Re:Wow, this one was tough! (Score:2)
And rootkits may be evil, but at the root of the rootkit problem are things like the DMCA and software and business process patents, and in this case Sony - as evil as they may be - may indeed be a victim.
Re:Wow, this one was tough! (Score:5, Funny)
You shouldn't think for yourself. From now on, either repost what I post, or just look for my posts and reply with "MOD PARENT UP!".
Seriously though, this company isn't *totally* unknown. They designed the crap that goes in Logitech's force feedback stuff. I have a mouse with their stuff in it, and it actually seems fairly clever. It's like you can "feel" the stuff on your screen. It's a little noisy though.
MOD PARENT UP!!! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Wow, this one was tough! (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Wow, this one was tough! (Score:3, Informative)
Just a quick caveat, in the gaming industry only Microsoft licences the patient, as Nintendo independently developed their own rumble technology that is significantly different.
Yet another brainwashed /.er (Score:2)
You must be on Apple's side, insensitive clod!
Re:Wow, this one was tough! (Score:2)
Re:Wow, this one was tough! (Score:2)
Re:Baa! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Totally offtopic, but... (Score:2)
Re:Hrm... (Score:2)
patents != copyright (Score:2)