Deleting Files is a Crime? 510
cemaco writes "A former employee of International Airport Centers, who is currently embroiled in a legal dispute with them, returned his company laptop as required. Hoping to find incriminating evidence, I.A.C. attempted to retrieve deleted information from the laptop in question with no success. This employee had beaten them to the punch. He had used 'secure delete' software, in order to make sure nothing could be recovered. He is now being charged with a violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act."
It's a *company* laptop... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Whoa! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:It's a *company* laptop... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Some people don't get it (Score:5, Informative)
So, this is on the assumption that he SELECTIVELY deleted files and didn't delete day-to-day financials, IT-installed AV software, IT-installed firewall and logger software..
But, since he used a secure delete:
-- HOW does IAC know WHAT he deleted?
-- WHY be such specious pieces of shit and sue him for something they cannot prove/trying to prove the unknowable?
If he once had a company proposal, but then had his own ideas and prototyped them, but left the company-bound original in place then the stuff he made for himself is HIS HIS HIS! Not the company's "just because he put it there".
If he put a pic of his family, they'd deleted it without a second thought. But, because it may be or they FEEL it's in their "sphere of interest", of course they'll want a copy. But, too bad. If they had a plan to expand and didn't include him, and liked his ideas but said, "See ya, we don't need ya", and he felt they we're using HIS ideas (which, if he's smart, can be reconstructed by any MBA observing the business potential, studying the companies and entities involved, and using some wit and imagination...), then if they didn't have them in their meetings minutes, they're stupid.
Now, IF he produced the stuff on COMPANY time FOR the company and it was stuff they TOLD him to make as an in-process and end-product set of information, then he shouldn't have deleted it. But, if he, for instance, installed (say, with their permission) his own licensed software and produced data for them, but say, deleted their data, then they have NO damn business expecting to keep "evidence of his Corel (or whatever) copy". He could have had Maya, Alias, ACAD, who knows. And, if they had ACAD, but he drew floorplans of an office he intends to have fitted out, THAT, TOO is none of their goddam business.
Sour grapes. Sometimes, some COMPANIES just don't get it. Same goes for those companies whic hire programmers and and then "compensate" them to intentionally embed, encrypt and then claim as "their own intellectual property" some GPL/GNU software they goddam didn't create, and then adamantly pass off and defend as their own and expect smarter employees to sign NDAs and Non-Competes over stuff the company didn't create.
I hope that guy is smart, has a smart lawyer and that he actually IS in the right. But, unless we actually see the court transcripts, get our own forensics team on the hard drive (assuming the company didn't distrub the 1s and 0s any more than the ex-employee did), then it's going to be hard for any geek/nerd on this site to say much of anything meaningful without laying out some reasonable scenarios. I guess....
Re:Wrong law (Score:2, Informative)
No.
He quit and returned the item.
THEN they began digging for dirt.
That makes all the difference in the world.
Re:What's "to get"??? (Score:4, Informative)
From what I understand of the courts opinion - his fault is NOT in deleting files on laptop in itself, but in deleting the files AFTER he terminated his contract. Termination of the contract made his access of laptop unauthorized and destroying data on machine you are not authorized to access is a crime, leading me to think that he would have been ok if he deleted the files PRIOR to terminating his contract. They are treating it as if he, after quitting his job, connected to his former employer's network and deleted files on their servers.
-Em
Document Retention Laws (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Two-way crime (Score:5, Informative)
That is bullshit. If that were true: a company could argue that the government can't look at their financial records because it would incriminate them; a murderer could deny police access to their premises because they would find a body in her freezer that would incriminate her.
Self incrimination is when you are used directly as a source of evidence such as through a confession, or affidavit, and only applies to a criminal case.
Re:The problem with this law (Score:3, Informative)
The main thing that bothers me is, what if I delete some JPGs that were stored on the computer? I may have a good reason for not wanting anyone to see them, and since they were mine, there should be nothing wrong with deleting them.
Don't store stuff you don't want people to see on any computer but your own. Why would you store something on your employer's computer if you didn't want to them to see it?
Re:What Rights? (Score:3, Informative)
CVS (Score:3, Informative)
This also means that the company probably should use a different tactic - they should simply sue the former employee for breach of contract and not play these silly games with the deleted files.
Re:WTF... (Score:3, Informative)
This means if you have information that says you did something wrong, you can screw yourself further if you get rid of it. Finding a "secure delete" program on a computer is pretty much clear-cut evidence that you were trying to hide something. What, exactly, might you have had that warranted such behavior? Well, since they can't find that you better hope there isn't anything at all that is even remotely incriminating. Because if there is even a hint that you did actually destroy evidence, the judge is going to make your life hell.
The instructions to the jury can go something like "Since we don't actually know what happened to the evidence, or if the evidence would have proven the defendent is guilty, but we do know there was such evidence and that it disappeared, it is your duty to consider that this evidence did exist and was intentionally destroyed by the defendent. This may be taken as further evidence of guilt."
Spoilation of evidence is what it is called in both criminal and civil matters. You do not want to run afoul of this.
Context: Quit, then Deleted? (Score:5, Informative)
Having RTFA, it looks like Mr. Citrin's problem was that he resigned first, THEN handed back the laptop. The judge ruled that Citrin's right to issue commands of any sort on the system ended upon resignation. If I'm reading that correctly, the solution for other soon-to-be-former employees or contractors seems simple: delete, then quit.
More than anything, use head main ting when separating from a company. 1) get your personal gear out of the office; 2) delete email and files relating to personal business (or that might reflect especially poorly on you); 4) clear your browser history and cache; 5) securely overwrite all free sectors on disk; 6) log out and power down; 7) resign. It looks like Mr. Citrin may have gone overboard and nuked all of the company data on the laptop, which is of value and use to the company and their next person to fill his position, and made it look like he had something to hide.
Re:Two-way crime (Score:5, Informative)
Similarly, if the police EVER pull you over and ask you if they can search your trunk or vehicle during a routine stop, you can refuse. I have done so, with no recriminations. I didn't have anything to hide but I take exception to the police searching without what I call a valid reason. I was stopped for expired tags, and after a 12-hour shift and 1 hour commute each way I was fully exhausted. Bloodshot eyes and the whole bit. Refused IMMEDIATELY and asked why they asked me. They told me that it was due to the bloodshot eyes and how I was obviously tired. I asked if they wanted me to pull over to sleep, they said no. I asked if they had any further reason for detaining me and again, they had to answer no, so I stated I would leave then. I already had the ticket in my hand - bing bang boom gone.
You don't have to incriminate yourself, and this guy will easily get out of it on appeal.
A better solution would be to ghost the hard drive when you get the laptop at your new job. Returning the computer to them in EXACTLY the same condition that it was given to you (data-wise) would then be trivial. How can they punish you for that? They can't. In fact, you can even prove that it IS in the same condition!
Re:The Law is Seriously Bent... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Deleting is deleting, period...judge should get (Score:1, Informative)
You're probably talking about Judge James M. Rosenbaum (United States District Court for the District of Minnesota). "In Defence of the Delete Key", The Green Bag, 2D Series, Vol3, No4, Summer 2000.
Here's the HTML Introduction [greenbag.org] and here's the actual PDF [greenbag.org].
Re:Two-way crime (Score:3, Informative)
Company time, company computer - their property! (Score:2, Informative)
That's in California. In some other states and countries, it's quite possible that any work done by you in the general field of commerce engaged by your employer belongs to them, regardless of when, where and how you did it.
Thus, they certainly have a right to be looking for evidence on the computer that he'd done competitive work on it - that would belong to them. They looked, closely, and found.... nothing at all. Probably, just a clean, sanitized system (just like I always leave at the end of a job :]). So what? Sure, it's suspicious, but I'd say "too bad"; they certainly can't prove that he threw away anything useful.
I'm sure that any lawyer worth his salt can call any number of expert witnesses who can show that secure-deletes are not hacking, and are absolutely required in many instances.
He'll get off, but sure it's a pain.
There are ways (Score:3, Informative)