Dell Opens Up About Desktop Linux 517
An anonymous reader writes "Michael Dell explains his company's Linux desktop strategy in an interview at DesktopLinux.com. He says that it's not practical for Dell (the company) to support numerous distributions due to their incompatibilities, but that he doesn't want alienate large segements of the Linux community by selecting a favorite Linux distro to standardize on (Ubuntu appears to be his favorite, at the moment, by the way.) What he'd really like to see, is for the popular Linux distros to converge on a common core platform, according to the article."
Funny (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Funny (Score:5, Insightful)
No they don't - they want hardware that works out of the box on the distro they chose.
I'd be happy if Dell supported one distro (or hell, even netBSD). It would mean that other distro's could look at the drivers used & have an easy time supporting Dell.
Its not rocket science Michael, don't try to make it harder then it really is. Support one distro (my suggestion is Debian, as you get a nice slow moving target, or Ubuntu, for predictable release cycles) but it doesn't really matter which one you support
Re:Funny (Score:5, Interesting)
Besides; it'll be a cold day in hell when the Linux community converges on a single distribution. Distributions like Gentoo will always be popular with people like me who are sick of the dependency hell of Redhat, the crippled nature of Debian (which doesn't ship with mplayer or mp3 support, fer christsake), or whatever. And there are a ton of people who think compiling everything from scratch is obsessive and takes too long.
In GoboLinux, binary and source packages are both first-class citizens, which is nice, but talk about diverging from the norm -- geez. *I* like Gobo, but there's about as much chance of it becoming The Linux Distribution as... well, as G.W. Bush has of being accepted by MENSA.
I'm not surprised that Dell doesn't grok the Linux community; if he did, he'd understand the parent poster's point, but you have to understand the fact that the Linux community is largely comprised of DIYers.
--- SER
Re:Funny (Score:4, Insightful)
Dell has to pander to the kind of custoemr he already has - businesses who don't mind paying for something as long as it works, and works well. So if he picked RedHat (for instance), shipped a support contract with each box, they'd be very happy and he'd sell loads of Linux boxes. The Linux community would probably complain that it wasn't Debian though and wouldn't buy the boxes anyway, so maybe he has grokked the community correctly.
I agree that have any distro would be a good thing (and I think RedHat EL4 woudl be a good choice given the demographic of Dell's target audience - they mosty run CentOS for their web-connected servers anyway).
Re:Funny (Score:3, Insightful)
It's a mistake to think that all Linux users are hobbiests who want everything for free. Some of us spend big money on hardware.
Re:Funny (Score:3, Insightful)
Dell sells much more to businesses than home users, so the idea of Dell selling preinstalled/fully supported Linux desktops to Joe Average users is a red herring.
Re:Funny (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Funny (Score:3, Funny)
First off, you're saying you don't live in a country where it's legal to download an mp3 decoder (without paying for it I'm assuming). Then you're listening to mp3's with Gentoo... so uhh, did you pay the patent royalties? Isn't that the problem?!
It wasn't obvious to you where the 'well-advertised' repository is. How in the hell did you install Gentoo without being able to look stuff up on teh internets?
But what confounds me most of all is that you found it
Re:Funny (Score:3, Informative)
FWIW, Debian does include mp3 decoder software (i.e., software that can decode mp3 files to listen to) by default. It takes ca. 5 seconds to know this by googling for debian AND mp3 AND patent AND policy, which brings up this thread [debian.org] as the first link.
This might be too much f
Re:Funny (Score:4, Insightful)
It's called listening, folks. Maybe if the Linux community started listening to what users are SAYING they want, instead of dictating it to them, Linux would see wider adoption.
Re:Funny (Score:4, Informative)
Maybe is IS wrong (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem is, when you put companies in the driving seat for a push to a single Linux distribution, you get crap like RPM being made part of the standard. Personally, I'm glad UnitedLinux failed to gain overwhelming momentum, because life's too short to have to deal with RPM.
Re:Maybe is IS wrong (Score:3, Insightful)
Its this kind of b*ll*cks that has stopped Dell from supporting Linux, read what the he said about the community complaining if he picked a distro, and you have exactly demonstrated why he's right.
Re:Maybe is IS wrong (Score:4, Insightful)
RedHat also originated ntsysv, and that beats the pants off Debian's craptastic update-rc.d.
The point is that because of the freedom associated with Linux, people are free to make decisions based on technical merit rather than marketing. Michael Dell's request is a marketing request: Linux would be easier to sell if it was unified.
As a user of Linux, I don't care how easy it is to sell--I'm much more interested in how easy it is to use, how reliable it is, and so on. Those things would be damaged by (for example) making RPM ubiquitous, making sendmail ubiquitous, making GNOME the standard desktop, making MySQL the only relational DB, and so on--even though those same changes would likely make Linux sell better.
In other words, what's good for marketing Linux to new users is often bad for those who are already Linux users. And absent the ability to force distributions to standardize, there will always be a market for distributions that do what's best for the users, rather than what's best for companies.
Re:Maybe is IS wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
APT is a program which was originally designed to handle the Debian packaging format.
RPM is a packaging format.
There is APT-RPM out there, which lets you use APT to handle RPM files.
Re:Maybe is IS wrong (Score:3, Informative)
Ultimately, ALL these distros suffer from the effects of a centralized database that gridlocks users into choices made within the central repository. We must use this hideous kludge called "package manager" because there is no standard definition for desktop Linux where the OS stops and where appli
Re:Funny (Score:4, Insightful)
How can you get any "wider adoption" than that?
You too can listen as well as anyone else. This is not an issue of the linux community not listening to somebody. This is not Windows. It's a different environment, and it doesn't work the way you think it should. That doesn't mean it can't work.
Practice what you preach and listen
"I'd be happy if Dell supported one distro (or hell, even netBSD). It would mean that other distro's could look at the drivers used & have an easy time supporting Dell."
As soon as that happened the rest of the linux community could more easily get their distro of choice working on Dell machines as well. Why is that so hard to understand? That's how the linux community works.
- Kevin
Re:Funny (Score:5, Insightful)
The key to Linux is diversity and who cares if we alienate Mr AOL etc. Everyone everywhere seems to be trying to tell the community what to do atm yet we are still here plodding on in our own directions some totally contrary to others and yet still making great things happen our own ways.
Thats what made Linux and OSS what it is in the first place by not conforming to someone in a suit who probably types with one finger and assumes to know what is best for us.
Re:Funny (Score:3, Insightful)
There seem to be two competing factions among Linux users. One wants to keep Linux diverse, flexible, and (admit it) fragmented. The other wants to see Linux gain market share (especially at the expense of Microsoft) and see consolidation and standardization as the means to accomplish it.
You sound like the former. Michael Dell is backing the latter.
Re:Funny (Score:4, Insightful)
YES !!
An industry powerhouse like Michael Dell tells the Linux community what he wants
Said in another way, the VENDOR is telling us CLIENTS what he wants. This is BS of course, and not at all the way it works.
Let's see what your conclusions are
and how does the Linux community respond? By insisting that he's wrong and telling him what he actually wants
What ? You mean us CLIENTS are asking the VENDOR what we want ? We tell him he's wrong and tell him what we want.
That looks like a very good thing to me. Now, does he listen ?
It's called listening, folks
Exactly, Dell has to listen.
Maybe if the Linux community started listening to what users are SAYING they want, instead of dictating it to them, Linux would see wider adoption
And there you lost me. The Linux community is the users you talk about here, so your sentence does not make any sense. Dell sure enough is not the user here.
And basically, the GP is saying to Dell to stop assuming things about us USERS, especially because these things are BS, and that supporting any distro will do the job.
Re:Funny (Score:3, Insightful)
The nature of Open Source means that the Linux "community" is both the users and the distro maintainers. Poor Dell* is stuck in the middle.
*: I can't believe I just used "poor Dell" in a sentence.
Re:Funny (Score:5, Interesting)
The PARENT is right.
The Linux Community needs to listen to Dell, not the other way around.
Are we "clients" of Dell? Yeah, sort of, but let's face it, if Linux disappeared overnight it would not make a bit of difference to Dell's bottom line. There is simply no profit motive for them to listen to a bunch of whiny, "gimmie gimmie gimme Micro$oft SUXORS!" idiots who can't even agree on a common desktop environment.
On the other hand, if the Linux community listens to Dell - who, personally, is obvious sympathetic to Linux - and agrees on certain standards that would make it possible for Dell to ship a "generic" Linux distro and basic RPM &
I've used Dell support for Linux Servers. They want RedHat Enterprise, and I can understand it, because from a support perspective, it is predictable. I called 'em up and said, "Hey, I'm running CentOS, a RHEL clonse, just treat me like I'm running RedHat, ok?" and the techs say "sure!" and eagerly get to helping me with my problems. The Dell Techs are smart enought (well, the business ones based in the US, the Indians have to stick to their scripts) to support a "baseline" linux. However, it would be an UNPROFITABLE support nightmare to support every - or even the 5 biggest - distros out there.
Go ahead. Whine about how "Dell doesn't listen to the Linux community". You'll score points with the Linux zealots who find it easier to badmouth the 90% of the world that doesn't use Linux. But, if you want to make true Linux desktop adaption a reality - if you want to see Linux develop a true installed base that would prevent Microsoft from doing something wacky like develop proprietary extensions that "everyone must have" or enough of an installed base so that some big, coroporate lobbyists will DEFEND Linux when our braindead politicians are bought off by other big corporate lobbyists try to ban Linux form some ridiculous reason - and don't laugh, it's on the horizon, there are powerful interests - both corporate and governmental (RIAA, anyone) that think the idea of people being able to actually work their own computer hardware & software is a Bad Thing(tm) - well, if you want to see Linux groow, then listen to what people like Michael Dell say, and figure out wheat we can do to make their lives easier.
Our numbers are not enough for Dell to listen. Be nice, and they will work with us on hardware, and slowly, we will gain more influence. Be rude and insulting, and they'll tune us out.
Follow the money (Score:4, Insightful)
So the GP's points are not moot whatsoever; they are spot-on.
The basic problem here is that much of modern Corporate America doesn't see their customers as anything but an ends to a means. Not a partner, not someone to serve; simply an ends to the next bonus. Dell is an excellent example of this; and if they truly wanted to serve their customers, they'd be providing what their customers wanted - not what Dell says they want.
I don't think we're trying to sell him, honestly.. (Score:4, Insightful)
They have had opportunities in the past to support Linux properly and they've discarded them for working with Microsoft- which is their right as a company. This whole sorta love it, sorta not affair with Dell has been ongoing for nearly 10 years now. I know about it because I was in the wings on parts of it all throughout.
The bulk of the argument Michael Dell's making is specious as it doesn't apply for Dell Computers as they're only really concerned about kernel support of the device buildup on a given machine- for all they care, they need only drop Debian, Ubuntu, or, god forbid, even Linspire on their product lines to "ensure that they work on delivery". If the kernel has support for the devices they ship on a given desktop and laptop, this will simply work and people can choose other distributions as they see fit for them- so long as any of their custom apps use something like the Loki Games installer or Autopackage (I'm for using Autopackage myself...).
This is all nice, but in the end, he's asking for Linux to be more like Windows (which it's not...) when he really ought to be less concerned about all of that and pick a default distribution they can comfortably support and support the devices in the Kernel however they can. It's not at all hard Michael- happens every day of the week. I've got a laptop from one of your competitors, any distribution will install on it, and the bulk of the devices (with the notable exception of the Broadcom WiFi (which there's a usable workaround, though I'd rather they didn't use that chipset...) and the silly on-board flash reader (which TI's preventing a version to be made- nifty device really, too bad TI's being stupid about it...), it all just went on and worked- with each and every distribution I put on it in 32-bit mode (64 bit modes work, but since the ATI chipset's...twitchy...it is more difficult to get 64-bit modes going. And it's nothing to do with the distributions per se, it's ATI's doing...).
Uh, no. (Score:3, Insightful)
Last I checked, I still had to pay for a Dell box myself. That makes me their client; and them a vendor.
I could care less what Dell wanted. I know what I want, and Dell doesn't provide it.
Re:Funny (Score:5, Interesting)
Do you honestly believe that's what Dell was saying? Personally, I think that's total horse crap! Allow me to run this through the BS filter for you. The BS-less version goes something like this:
How does a plethora of distributions affect Dell choosing and supporting one of them? It doesn't. What keeps them from getting inundated with tech support calls regarding fifty different distros right now? Nothing. It's just "Sorry, we don't support that." How would selling and supporting a machine with distro-X on it change that? It wouldn't. Tech support calls for distro-Y just get "Sorry, we don't support that."
It's Dell's mouth moving, but it's Gates doing the talking.
Re:Funny (Score:4, Interesting)
Linux has far more at stake in getting a Dell/Linux deal than does Dell.
Re:Funny (Score:4, Informative)
Because customers are fucking stupid. I don't mean your average dumbass stupid, I mean belly crawling gutter shit stupid. All the customer is going to know is that they have linux on their computer. As soon as they call in and here "sorry we don't support that distribution" they're going to be pissed because to the customer is Linux. It's not RedHat Linux, it's not Ubuntu Linux, it's not SuSE linux. The customer doesn't give a shit who made the distribution all they know is that it's Linux and dell sells boxes with linux and they want support.
Ask anyone who works in tech support how suprisingly common it is for people to not understand such simple concepts.
Re:Funny (Score:5, Insightful)
A company the size of Dell doesn't ask us what version of Linux is going to be on a Dell, it tells us.
All he has to do is partner up with Red Hat. Dell supports the hardware, Red Hat supports the software. Done.
Re:Funny (Score:2)
Granted, it didn't work quite out of the box. But the hacking required was so minimal I'd expect anyone with a reasonable understanding of Linux to manage it.
Re:Funny (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Funny (Score:5, Informative)
That doesn't work if the procedures aren't there for the helpdesk in the first place.
eg. Two weeks ago I found a problem which eventually I solved myself. Now, I could ring my ISP and say "Don't know if you're aware of this, but a computer with a fluxquox network card nailed to 10Mbps will, if connected to the internet directly through the cable modem you supply, be damn slow for no apparent reason - even though the Internet connection is significantly slower than 10Mbps so you wouldn't expect it to matter".
They would say "You're having problems connecting to the Internet? Can you reset your PC for me please?"
I'd spend 10 minutes trying to explain to the person on the end of the phone that I'd had problems, I'd figured out what they were and how to solve them, and that this information could be useful to them. Eventually they'd just agree to get me off the phone, but there's no knowledgebase for them to update because all they do is follow the script.
Re:Funny (Score:4, Informative)
This is usually where I usually try to post to a newsgroup, forum, or blog related to this topic. At least if the information is made available, someone might be able to Google it. If I can't resolve something myself, that's usually the first place I look.
I suspect most slashdotters are in the same boat, where if you've reached the stage of needing someone else's help, you're already beyond the first or second stages of triage that consumer-facing vendor support lines provide.
Re:Funny (Score:3, Interesting)
someone might be able to Google it
is overassumptive (yes, I like to create my own words). Pulling from my experience with students I lived with in the college dorm and the general userbase I have to support now, no one even knows that you can get tech information from Google. I know, it sounds ridiculous. But most people think Google is just a way to find recipes or driving directions. When a computer breaks, no one (other than us tec
Re:Funny (Score:3, Funny)
That's funny.... (Score:2)
Hell in Gentoo you just have to 'emerge VMWareWorkstation' or something as such.
I agree with Mr Dell (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:I agree with Mr Dell (Score:5, Funny)
Chicken or the Egg? (Score:3, Insightful)
Think if Dell offered Linux to the average consumer and worked with the Vendor to provide support it'd give them the market share? Of course. Dell would make colourful foldout instructions for whatever Distro they choose. Dell would make drivers specificly for the distro they choose. Just like they did with RedHat on the server OSs (try getting OpenManage to run on other distros... hell in a handbasket).
So I'd say this again- if Dell were to pic
Re:I agree with Mr Dell (Score:5, Insightful)
As long as all the hardware in a computer has linux drivers (preferably open source, but
I'll live with things like Nvidia's drivers), then any version of linux with a suitably
recent kernel (i.e any current distro) will work with the hardware.
Any incompatibility between the distros is a result of different file structure etc.,
this isn't a Linux (i.e. kernel) issue.
When I buy a budget computer from Dell I feel that I am gambing on the hardware being
operable under Linux (and I've lucked out so far).
Re:I agree with Mr Dell (Score:2, Insightful)
Dubuntu anyone?
Re:I agree with Mr Dell (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I agree with Mr Dell (Score:3, Insightful)
Do they also sell PCs without hard disks, to avoid alienating certain hard disk manufacturers?
Re:I agree with Mr Dell (Score:3, Insightful)
The strength of Linux is that it's not a monopoly system like Microsoft. There are lots of options depending on what exactly you're looking to do. Dell should figure out what most users of their desktop systems want out of their computers (Corp/Govt vs Home Office vs Gamers) and choose (K)Ubuntu^H^H^H^H^H^Ha distro or three that best support those needs, in a way not dissimilar to Windows product lines,
Well, he may be right, but it's still a ruse (Score:3, Insightful)
In fact, it's hard to believe that Dell cares what Linux partisans of various stripes think at all. While they probably do sell the odd machine to evangelists and hobbyists, those people can be counted on to customi
The guy makes sense (Score:5, Interesting)
Mod parent up: LSB is the current best answer (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't see what would be so bad if Dell started doing what a lot of software companies do--support the biggest few (Red Hat and/or SUSE). Hobbyists will be happy knowing the hardware works with SOME distro. If Dell finds it economically feasible, they can add support for other distros (possibly even as some
What I'd like from Dell (Score:5, Insightful)
All I want from Dell is a commmittment to ship hardware for which open source drivers are available -- for them to say, for example, we need open source audio drivers or we won't ue your soundcard/integrated chipset, or your graphics chipset, or whatever. If Dell leaned on vendors, they'd give open source developers the info they need to support their products.
The not having to pay for windows thing is tricky, and I know it bugs a lot of people. I understand why. But for me the bottom line is that I just want stuff to work, and a Dell with a windows license is still a good machine at a good price, even if you don't use the license.
It would be cool if Dell could make sure that dual boot people could reinstall windows in a differently sized partition, though -- if they could make sure that you get the installation CDs or whatever else you need to do that. I haven't really been following things, but I hear that some people get machines with ghost backups of windows instead of a real install CD. That sort of thing is a problem from a practical point of view for a linux guy who wants the ability to dual boot.
Good for you (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Good for you (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Good for you (Score:3, Insightful)
Since Dell seems more or less happy with the state of affairs now, and you're compla
Right on the money (Score:5, Interesting)
And you have heard correctly - most new systems don't come with a full install CD anymore (I buy for a medical practice). Now, you get either a "recovery" CD (most of which wipe your partitioning) or the aforementioned ghost partition (usually with an option to burn a CD backup).
It was one of the things which helped me sell Linux to the practice, when we had to buy an off-the-shelf copy of Win XP for a machine (which came with Win XP) that took an unexplained OS crap and couldn't be retored from the partition.
Re:What I'd like from Dell (Score:5, Insightful)
All I want is drivers period. Proprietary is fine with me.
Re:What I'd like from Dell (Score:3, Interesting)
ANY linux distro. It is not just the Average Joe User who buys his shiny new
Dell on-line (consumer grade machine) that is a Dell Computer support issue.
As someone who has deployed Dell servers and (corporate) workstations for
a large defense contractor, I can tell you that OEM's (not just Dell) have a huge
problem delivering a single shipment of computers with the same hardware.
Unlike the good old days, motherboards, video cards,
Re:What I'd like from Dell (Score:3, Informative)
I am writing this running Ge
Why don't they...? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Why don't they...? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why don't they...? (Score:2)
What Dell is saying is true though, There needs to be a convergence of sorts. Some sort of standard business installation that all distros have as an install option. This Installation would need to be Standardized and Certified by some non-profit board to ensure that no distro deviates from this
It is soooo simple (Score:3)
Common-core platform as a Monopoly? (Score:2)
Does this mean that if they released this common core platform, will it be labeled as a 'monopoly'? Or, rather the most functional and easy to use of the Linux distros?
Decisions, decisions. (Score:2, Insightful)
He is absolutely right. (Score:5, Insightful)
Ultimately, all mainstream Linux distributions could derive from the same basic base (with the exception of those which try to fit Linux in tight places, for example). There is no reason that RedHat, SuSE, Debian, et al have to have so many differences beneath user-space software. (Consider the wildly different boot-time initialization scripts in each of those distributions. Ironically, there is a modular system in place.) Consolidate the similarities and expand by extensions which do not eliminate cross “distro” compatibility. There are already efforts [autopackage.org] to this effect. This is no magic bullet for any particular problem, but it will help eliminate the throat-cutting within the community and encourage computer manufacturers like Dell to offer Linux solutions.
Re:He is absolutely right. (?!) (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:He is absolutely right. (?!) (Score:3)
Oh come off this nonsense. This is not about elimating choice, this is about practical reality. It does not make sense to try to support a product across so many distributions that are fundamentally the same operating system. All features that users are interested in exist in, quite intuitively, user space. They do not care what the init scripts are doing or what kernel they are running. Not a single user noticed Apple's transition from BSDi to FreeBSD 5 when they released Panther and that is prec
Talk out of both sides of the mouth (Score:4, Interesting)
From the article: "People are always asking us to support Linux on the desktop, but the question is: 'Which Linux are you talking about?'"
Dell does a pretty good job of supporting different versions of Windows (at least 98, NT, ME, 2K, XP). "Support" really means "drivers that work with our hardware" -- they could easily sell Linux without providing software support. I'm sure one of the bigger Linux distros (Red Hat if nobody else) would be happy to team up with them for a co-branded/co-marketed PC.
Re:Talk out of both sides of the mouth (Score:5, Insightful)
Err, duh. RTFA instead of just the opening. Where Dell does offer a desktop computer with Linux is in its Dell Precision nSeries low-end workstation line. These come with RHEL WS 4 (Red Hat Enterprise Linux workstation 4) preinstalled.
...and...
However, he also said, "We've had number of communications with Ubuntu. Most of those have been about giving Ubuntu better driver support, but we're open to all those things."
So apologies for the KJR (knee jerk reaction), but still: the question is hardware driver support.
I don't buy it (Score:5, Interesting)
The fact is, Dell is the one company that could make Linux on the desktop happen, if they wanted to.
Re:I don't buy it (Score:3)
Compromise (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Compromise (Score:5, Insightful)
Inspiron runs FC4 fine (Score:2, Informative)
Having said that it seems perfectly Dell compatable... would just be nice if
Re:Inspiron runs FC4 fine (Score:4, Insightful)
And that's the core of the problem. 99% of users don't care enough to spend a "few months" just to get digital sound and wireless access. I just bought a mac Mini, and I had my wireless and digital sound working right out of the box (it might not be a fair comparison driver-wise but it at least shows that Unix can be an excellent desktop OS). It's those 99% of users you are targeting when you go after the desktop market. When I got FC1, (I know it's been a while), it took me 8 hours to get my wireless card working and I learned 20 different things in the process. I didn't mind it, but most users shouldn't have to care about such things. And just based on that, I don't think i'd be able to recommend Linux to anyone non-geeky for a while. (I've used Ubuntu as recently as last year and was pretty impressed, but still is nowhere near where it has to be.)
I've had one harddrive completely die (replaced next day), but now I have bad sectors and htey won't help me because I'm running an unsupported OS.
And that is perfectly acceptable. Why should they have to waste their time diagnosing something unless they are absolutely 100% sure that some driver in some Linux distro that they don't know about could've caused your hard drive to overwork itself and get corrupted... (it's a possibility.) It would be unfair to other users who are running "supported" software. That's why you're a Linux geek, you are probably fine with spending 20 hours diagnosing hard drive sectors.
Re:Inspiron runs FC4 fine (Score:3, Insightful)
That's weird, we buy Dell all the time for desktops. A fair number of the "os-less" ones, too, for Linux and OpenBSD. Have had a few die over the past while with bad caps on the board (whole different story) and Dell has never refused a claim.
If dell would... (Score:2)
Common core platform ? Which one ? (Score:2)
UnitedLinux ? (*)
Linux Core Consortium ?
Progeny ?
Can you find more ?
(*) Dead, I know.
Hey thats a good new idea! (Score:5, Funny)
We could call it the Linux Standards Base or something like that.
A Question to Spark Wars - The Best Distro Is??? (Score:2)
Now here is the restrictions:
Must be the easiest to install and use, based on someone who has ZERO experience with Linux, but has experience with Windows. So this probably means it has to be GUI based. Then work with the most amount of applications out there.
Re:A Question to Spark Wars - The Best Distro Is?? (Score:3, Interesting)
drivers (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:drivers (Score:3, Insightful)
Release early, release often. (Score:4, Insightful)
This question of "which distro" is a misleading one. Pick one that you think will meet the needs of your customers. Ubuntu is a nice fit for home machines and laptops. Dell already has some enterprise Linux machines out there so they could easily offer a choice of Ubuntu or Enterprise on workstations and servers. Once one distro works on a Dell machine, the likelihood is that any other distro of choice will also work. All this talk of fragmentation in the Linux distros misses the important point that open source is more about source-level compatibility than binary compatibility. As long as software can be compiled successfully on a Linux distro, it can be used.
It is also important to track the latest stable release. If Dell produced Ubuntu-configured machines, it should attempt to make sure that the version is current with the latest stable release. This would also encourage hardware manufacturers to provide Dell with Linux-supported hardware and that might in turn help increase the number of devices that have linux support. Wireless networking is a key area where support is tricky.
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
It will never happen (Score:4, Insightful)
Freedom is a messy thing (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm starting to think that most people are into bondage.
Freedom is a messy, messy thing. It's not clean, or easy, or cheap. It's not a delicate giver-goddess fashion-plate saint; it's a rough player, dirty and sometimes mean. It takes dedication to maintain, intelligence to master, and a willingness to honor others' freedoms.
I don't think most people are up to the task. Or, at least, there's a large portion of society that isn't up to the task. Leading the way are corporations, as Freedom is anathema to business. Corporations work hard to limit choice, or better, to dictate choice ("You can have any color, as long as it's black"). Second is the government, as Freedom is difficult to govern. ("You can have any choice, as long as it's mine.")
And I think most people allow that to happen, because they don't want to have to excersize Freedom. (Citizens in the US are notoriously averse to excersize.) They would rather be stupid followers instead of intelligent independents.
My evidence?
McDonalds. Budweiser. Wal*Mart. MS-Windows. G. W. Bush. Ribbon magnets on vehicles. Star Wars I, II, III. Etc.
Each of those are demonstrably crappy products, yet each is a "leader," in some definition of the word. Each is patronized by more people than competing products (well, except G.W. Bush, but he's patrionized to by more people).
I don't know what this says about society, but it keeps me up at night sometimes. I hope someone figures out how to fix it.
Don't wait up for Linux to become Windows (Score:5, Insightful)
Linux and most open-source software are by nature a federated, bottom-up form of software development where multiple versions abound. This is because there is no one single entity(person or corporation) who knows which features are best for users, *and* the best way for those to be implemented. Hence forks abound which allows users, aka the free market, to decide which versions/software suit their own requirement. Compare this to proprietary software where the corporation decides which features you want, when you want them and in what form you want them.
Waiting for Linux to converge into a single platform with a market share >80% would imply that other versions have failed to see what users desire, and one company(or group of individuals) has been able to capitalize on that and advance its market share.
Now Ubuntu(I use that myself) has to an extent been reading what lay users desire from a distro and implementing many of their needs well. But as Ubuntu becomes more popular are other distros going to sit still watching it reap all the laurels? I don't think so. They will evolve too. If you think that isn't possible then ask yourself how the hell Ubuntu managed to gain so much in the last couple of years? Do you think such innovation will stop after Ubuntu?
Finally, imho lay-users are not going to want to switch to Linux in the near-term. Because switching an OS for them represents a huge task which they will undertake only if:
1. They are thouroughly dissatisfied with Windows, or
2. They are thouroughly enamoured by the benefits that Linux offers
Unlike what we may all think, on the whole most people are not thouroughly dissatisfied with Windows. Sure they may have to deal with patchy security and those occasional crashes but hey, who says Linux doesn't have issues? I've had Ubuntu lock up on me more than a few times. I've spent a better part of the first month trying to get streaming videos to play on Firefox. Did I quit? No...so why would a Windows user?
To sum up, expecting Linux to converge into a super-distro isn't going to happen. Simply because open-source by nature is designed against the formation of monopolies. Since code upto a certain point is freely available to all, a new fork can be established by a brighter, more innovative, more responsive group in much lesser time than in the prop. s/w market. So an 80%+ distro would mean that nobody else read the market and changed course.
United we stand, divided we fall. (Score:3, Interesting)
Michael Dell with a bit naive view (Score:4, Insightful)
For a company which has been supplying $300 low end machines with scrap hardware and shady driver, this doesn't make much sense to me. Even with failed venture in Linux market with Red Hat back in 2001, I don't ever recall Dell ever putting any effort in supporting customers half way decent.
Sure, they had "support Red Hat and SuSE or United Linux" logo. And because of that, Dell's association with so called "leading or highly preferred version", it treated Linux as an OS, not a kernel. and when someone states "I support Linux" normally you don't convertly support only "some portion" of GNU/Linux distro, but work with Linux kernel developers with half way decent driver support so that EVERY distro can benefit from it.
Even today, Michael Dell either can't see it or is too naive. One would think, Dell had learned their lesson and support Linux kernel developement and community and not "leading or highly preferred version" distros. However this goes to show, Dell didn't.
He's got the right idea. (Score:5, Insightful)
Companies do not want to invest money retraining their staff. It was hard enough getting them to learn MS Office or WordPerfect the first time. There are a few things that need to happen before Linux makes a big push for the corporate desktop:
-- Make it "just work." Windows' big strength is that I can go to CompUSA, buy any old crappy piece of hardware, plug it in, and have it work without having to load kernel modules, edit config files, etc.
-- Standardize it. Pick an office suite. Pick a window manager. Pick _a few_ of the hundreds of obscure GNU applications and bundle them as a standard tool set. Wrap in some administration and deployment tools that are brain-dead simple to use. No normal user wants three office suites, four window managers, etc.
-- Completely hide the guts from the end user unless they want to see it. Mac OS does a great job of this. I have the command line and access to the config files if I want it, but the GUI is more than adequate to tweak most items.
Dell's other big market is home users. The same rules apply, just more so. Home users do not have the patience to learn Linux internals. My advice would be to start with an Ubuntu-like base, and go to work making the OS just work for normal users.
Self-fulfilling (Score:5, Insightful)
If Dell starts shipping every box with some Linux distro, that distro will immediately become the "common core platform".
Re:Self-fulfilling (Score:3, Insightful)
How many Linux boxes do you really think are going to sell? I don't see why slashdotters are even concerned...
Practically every one of you scoff at the "off the shelf" system and don't currently support the prebuilt system. Are you telling me that if Dell offers some random Linux distro you're really going to buy it to put your own favorite distro on it?
I don't think dell can win this
Re:Self-fulfilling (Score:3, Insightful)
Major Mountain of Mikey BS (Score:4, Insightful)
Your service hasn't been worth much since about 2001, so it's no big loss for the user. Then you can stop making bad excuses for not wanting to offer Linux because MSFT will find a way to raise your OEM license costs if you do.
Dell's misunderstanding (Score:4, Insightful)
So, what Linux operating system to pick? It doesn't matter! Choose whatever distro you think you can support the best. Preinstall Weezix (distro maintained by George Jefferson's wife) for all I care. If you can show me Weezix running, drivers and all, that means that I can copy the config to my distro of choice. Yes, that takes some expertise. But there are tons of people with that sort of expertise nowadays.
And here's the kicker: within two months, step-by-step instructions will appear on the forums and wikis of the major distros. Within six months, most distros will automatically support that machine out-of-the-box.
It doesn't matter which one you choose, it only matters that you choose! Though you can make everybody's lives a lot easier by selecting hardware with open source drivers. Too bad about the graphics card situation...
What a bunch of BS! (Score:4, Interesting)
We love Linux, and we're doing our best to support the Linux community.
Mr. Dell,
Please put your products where your mouth is. If you are so supportive of Linux, please put your suppliers on notice that you will not buy from them without Linux drivers, please design and promote your full line of PCs as "Linux ready", provide strong customer support for 3 or 4 distros (they really aren't that different under the hood) and please, oh please, sell them at a price that doesn't include an M$ tax.
Still waiting after all these years.
their own DelLinux (Score:3, Interesting)
I know, I know, to start such a thing is easy, but to keep it updated is going to cost _real_ money. But they can outsource that to their folks in India, or wherever.
"Our competitors are smarter than us" (Score:3, Insightful)
I can tell you right now that the Debian folks aren't going to suddenly drop everything they're doing any time soon. Ubuntu might get folded back into Debian, but that's a long way away, and I wouldn't bet on it. The same thing goes for Knoppix. It's even less likely for Linspire, because it's sold by a for-profit company.
And those are just the Debian-based distros, for whom it would probably be technically easiest to merge. What about SuSE (Novell), Fedora/Red Hat, Gentoo? Do you think they will merge with each other?
News flash: If Michael Dell doesn't want to serve the *actual* market, instead of some fantasy market in his head, I'm sure his competitors will be glad!
Already happened (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Common core platform? (Score:2)
Re:Agreements with MS (Score:4, Informative)
You will save money if you order a Dell with no OS (well, FreeDOS is usually shipped with the system) versus one shipped with XP. You just can't order every system that way.
Re:Conditionals can deal with it (Score:3, Funny)
Umm, you must be kind of clueless yourself (Score:3, Insightful)
The truth of the matter is, I t