Java Virtualization for Server Consolidation 97
Steve Wilson writes "Cassatt Corporation has released new software that enables administrators with large J2EE farms to much more efficiently use their resources. In order to do this, it leverages the virtualization capabilities inherent in the JVM to create a single shared pool of hardware resources which which all J2EE applications can draw."
Re:TBH (Score:2, Insightful)
The article, or the link from it, says question is about offering cheaper alternative to server virtualiazation. And refers to linux and Windows, which leaves unix as 'expensive'.
My understanding unix rocks with clusters and similar , linux and windows far less.
So the logic must be that it's cheaper to build linux or Windows virtualization system that scales than one from unixe
Re:TBH (Score:3, Funny)
This list [top500.org] says you should apt-get upgrade your understanding.
Re:TBH (Score:1)
http://www.top500.org/lists/2005/11/l/Operating_S
Shows linux vs the rest. Note on perf that linux+CNK/linux have 72.9% of total performance.
Re:TBH (Score:2, Interesting)
Back on topic, I suppose this might be useful for companies with peak loads in various applications
Sweet (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Sweet (Score:4, Interesting)
In theory, it would work across OS platforms. Considering that the guy hired a bunch of N1 [sun.com] engineers to do this, I don't see why they'd change the design.
Of course, practically it depends on how this software works. It's possible to write software that's tied to a given OS, even in Java.
Re:Sweet (Score:5, Informative)
Steve Wilson
Cassatt Corporation
Re:Sweet (Score:5, Interesting)
Now on to my own question.
Steve, the one thing I'm not getting from the article, nor from the website [cassatt.com] (at least, I haven't seen it yet) is as follows: Is this just another DRMAA [wikipedia.org] implementation, or is it more than that? If it is, could you give us a good overview of why it's better than N1? If not, can you explain what exactly this software does for a company? It somewhat sounds like it makes a single JVM run across multiple machines as if they were one, but if that's the case, how does it work? Is it a customized JVM based on Sun source code?
Thanks in advance!
Re:Sweet (Score:3, Interesting)
This question, far more than one about the absolute cost of Cassatt's solution, is the one that will decide whether I choose Sun N1, Cassatt, or whether I choose to build out my data centers so that each app has dedicated hardware. After all, the $5k per serv
VMWare rocks (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:VMWare rocks (Score:1, Flamebait)
Re:VMWare rocks (Score:5, Insightful)
So, back to the VMWare thing, yes I suppose you could hack a cluster of ESX servers up to do this. Of course you would have all of the overhead that VMWare needs to introduce. This includes the host OS, world switch and priveleged instruction emulation overhead, guest os, and application image. On top of that, you would have to shovel images around your cluster to make it work so bandwidth would be a nuisance. You would also be severely limited in how dynamically you could reassign resources, given the requirements of the guest OS. And you would of course be restricted to x86 architectures, which may or may not be an issue.
So you could do it, but boy would it be dumb.
Re:VMWare rocks (Score:2)
Or, you could even call it VMotion [vmware.com] and ship it three years ago. Hmm...
Re:VMWare rocks (Score:2)
Re:VMWare rocks (Score:2)
Ever heard of a SAN? It's not as if whole vmdk's are flying across the wire. We use paging techniques to reduce the latency for transferring the running guest's memory, so typical server "snoozes" during a VMotion over 1G ethernet are measured in milliseconds. And yes, customers do need to plan for the bandwidth needs of VMotion. Many run a separate network; they're willing
Re:VMWare rocks (Score:2)
It appears that you've run down a rabit hole and missed the main point, so I will restate it for clarity. VMWare is meant for x86 virtualization and would be an extremely poor choice as the basis for a distributed computing environment. I'm harping on this point because I keep running into people who try to use VMWare for problems that it can't really handle. Actually, even VMWare tried to do this when they marketted ACE as capable of protecting a guest OS from a malicious host system (which is a simple fa
Re:VMWare rocks (Score:2)
Actually, VMWare Server ESX can be installed directly on the machine, no host OS required.
(That doesn't make it any less inappropriate, of course)
Re:VMWare rocks (Score:2)
Re:VMWare rocks (Score:1)
Re:wow! so java is almos as cool as ruby now! (Score:2)
100k (Score:4, Insightful)
An Actual Case Study (link) (Score:5, Informative)
Steve Wilson
Cassatt Corporation
Quoi? (Score:2)
Whoopeeee. Color me underwhelmed with sticker yawn.
Using Java's Built in VM Functionality == $$$ (Score:5, Insightful)
Ok, so I can run java apps that save me lots of money on server hardware... for $100,000. unless I want to spend an extra $5,000 per server (bringing the total up to $300,000). So how is this going to save me money? I mean, I could by a whole bunch of 1U Dell P4 servers each valued at about $2k a piece. 40 of those would be only 80 grand. Now, I'm pretty sure that I pay my adminstrators so they can make an informed decision on grouping two or three services on a machine where it makes sense (like dns resolution and dhcp serving) and instantly save me a few machines there. And how many of my mission critical resource poor services are executed in Java? This seems like a huge waste of money to me. Besides how hard could this have been to come up with.. I mean, Java is running IN A VM in the first place. run an identical VM on another machine, add a little code to allow transfering of processes between VMs and you've got it. I'm sure it's got some tricky aspects, but is it that hard that it'll cost $300,000 to do? Something's fishy here...
Re:Using Java's Built in VM Functionality == $$$ (Score:1)
Re:Using Java's Built in VM Functionality == $$$ (Score:1)
What if your data center is full? (Score:4, Interesting)
In that case it's smarter to spend $100k on a product that can reportedly reduce server use by a factor of five, and make room for new applications to run on the same boxes you already have.
There are a number of complexities to this which mean it's not something you'd want to roll on your own, not if you wanted it to be stable anyway. And from the sounds of it since it's targeted at specific application servers (just Weblogic for now) it also has hooks into that system as well. To me the price seemed about right for a large company.
Can last much longer (Score:2)
Software has the tendancy to linger on long after hardware would have died. People are much more reluctant to decomission software.
Cheap hardware ain't cheap (Score:3, Insightful)
Power (which Google now says costs them more than hardware)
A/C
Administration
Maintainance
Support
Software licenses (and J2EE servers like BEA aren't cheap)
We did an analysis with one of our customers on their costs. Each box (for a 2 CPU linux box) costs over $100,000 during it's three-year lifetime.
Steve Wilson
Cassatt Corporation
Re:Cheap hardware ain't cheap (Score:2)
I also wonder if some of the c
Re:Cheap hardware ain't cheap (Score:1)
WAM (the thing the article talks about) is an add-on for our core product, Collage. Collage handles more of the administration/maintenance/support side.
As a basic overview, say you have an app (or apps) you need to run on a bunch of servers, but how many is variable (say, 2 under light load, 10 under heavy). You configure a server once, then use Collage to capture an image of that server. You can tell it which parts of the image are static, and which will
Re:Cheap hardware ain't cheap (Score:1)
~ Wizardry Dragon
Re:Using Java's Built in VM Functionality == $$$ (Score:1)
The point is that you need *less* servers, and *less* hyper-expensive Oracle and BEA licenses.
If you have a big enough server pool, the numbers start to make sense.
Just a management tool... (Score:1)
cJVM (Score:4, Interesting)
Sounds awefully like clustering JVM. One thing I am not sure is that;
1. failover is done by manager node?
2. application distribution over what stack? shared pool doesn't necessarily mean shared memory space.
3. parrallel or distributed processing or session clustering?
The more I think about it, this company sounds like a hype. $100,000 for 40 node pool and $5K per node is a bit of stretch in anyone's pocket in my opinion.
Re:cJVM (Score:2)
Re:cJVM (Score:2)
Re:cJVM (Score:2)
Re:cJVM (Score:2)
Re:cJVM (Score:2)
Re:cJVM (Score:2)
Alcatel is mostly big choice for telco in Europe. Couple of years ago, Alcatel was trying to push their product lines and pretty much failed miserably in US. Call it
Re:cJVM (Score:1)
ARGH LEVERAGES (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:ARGH LEVERAGES (Score:2)
Actually (Score:1, Insightful)
That's because it's so common now it's not news. News is when they use something other than Java.
Hence the need for virtualization as every large company has thousands of Java applications, many of which could easily be combined onto a server with other programs (as they do not really need much in the way of resources) the virtualizing thing just makes that easier by keeping them a little more isolated.
what the hell does that mean (Score:2, Insightful)
These are english words, but I have no idea what they mean. Does it have anything to do with "customer-centric e-solutions in web-time"?
Re:what the hell does that mean (Score:1)
Here's a Translation (Score:4, Interesting)
We use various technologies to allow us to efficiently and safely run more of your J2EE applications on fewer physical servers. By using fewer servers, but still maintaining your performance and availability characteristics, you can save a lot of money running your data center.
Does that help?
-Steve
Steve Wilson
Cassatt Corporation
http://www.cassatt.com/ [cassatt.com]
Re:Here's a Translation (Score:2)
Re:Yeah but I develop a RAD web app in 10 minutes (Score:2)
With Java Studio Creator, I can create a data-linked web application (with full MVC structure) in seconds using the visual design tool. And, I have full code-browsing, debugging and refactoring tools.
10 minutes? Slow.
Re:Yeah but I develop a RAD web app in 10 minutes (Score:2)
Yes, you sure are trolling. Of course, it is nothing like this.
I was not trolling.
And after you generate the app, it's a beautiful thing to behold! 80k worth of code to maintain for a single form with an additional 15 xml files to store the configurations and data mappings, and proprietary HTML elements and tag specific to the java world....
Nothing like being ignorant is there? There are,
Re:Yeah but I develop a RAD web app in 10 minutes (Score:2)
Why bother - you can download Studio Creator for free and do it yourself.
Basic idea of what this software is... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Basic idea of what this software is... (Score:2)
The only truly scalable way for j2EE is to NOT to share sessions between the servers, have them stateless. You can then have a simple load balance
Re:Basic idea of what this software is... (Score:2)
Re:Basic idea of what this software is... (Score:2)
If they... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:If they... (Score:4, Insightful)
-Steve
Steve Wilson
Cassatt Corporation
Re:If they... (Score:1)
Re:If they... (Score:2)
Just find a way to make goofballs understand that it's sort of the inverse type of virtualization (distribution) from what everyone is thinking about right now (consolidation)...
Not a bad idea. I suppose the first step would be removing "Consolidation" from the title of the article.
Re:If they... (Score:1)
We have one the biggest, most complicated java based web delivered applications on the i
Distributed JVM (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Distributed JVM (Score:2)
IOW what happened when one of the computer in the distributed JVM fails?
That said, I agree about the high price though.
Cool (Score:2)
If Java is so great, why is the website using ASP? (Score:2)
Re:If Java is so great, why is the website using A (Score:5, Informative)
Side note: our internal IT and development systems are managed by our own product. We eat our own dog food.
-Steve
Steve Wilson
Cassatt Corporation
Summary (Score:2)
I think this summarizes it pretty well,
Lame Press Release (Score:1)