French MPs Consider P2P Downloads Again 194
gregbains writes "French MPs are preparing to vote again on a proposal that would allow users to download music and movies in exchange for a flat fee per month. This announcement caused outrage from the music and movie groups, but excitement from the vast majority of civilians." From the BBC article: "A report by the Economic and Social Council which advises parliament on new laws argued that P2P exchanges should be made legal. Meanwhile France's highest court, the Cour de Cassation, ruled there was no automatic right for consumers to make private copies of their own DVDs. As MPs prepare to vote again, backing for the global licence remains strong despite the government's opposition."
If the content companies are so pissed... (Score:4, Insightful)
I think the biggest problem in the past 10 years with entertainment companies AND consumers is that each side forgets it needs the other. The MPAA and RIAA fuck with their customers enough, and someday it WILL be too much for Joe Blow, and in the same turn, if we completely fuck the entertainment companies and take away their incentive to produce content, well, they'll just stop.
I don't see why we have to be enemies, and as long as each side is saying "They started it with their (piracy/DRM)!" we won't get anywhere.
Re:If the content companies are so pissed... (Score:4, Insightful)
Ultimately, they cannot win. Contrary to what you say, we do not need the entertainment industry; until less than 200 years ago, they didn't even exist, yet humanity was doing quite fine. Did Bach, Mozart or Beethoven need the RIAA in order to be able to compose their works? Did Shakespeare need the Author's Guild in order to write? Did da Vinci need, well, whoever in order to pain the Mona Lisa? Not at all.
It's important to realise that. The entertainment industry is a convenience, but not a strict necessity, and it would be well-advised to not let things reach a point where they're more annoying than convenient. People don't need the entertainment industry, but the entertainment industry very much needs people. Without consumers, they literally would not exist.
Re:If the content companies are so pissed... (Score:2)
So you want to sociallize something that isn't a necessity. Traditionally socialism starts with things people think of as necessities. So if people
Re:If the content companies are so pissed... (Score:3, Interesting)
Nope. They all had rich patrons who commissioned their work.
I agree. We should go back to this. We will let Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer tell us what we can listen to... and Bush... and anyone else with the money. Much better than me being able to fund the music I want to listen to.
Re:If the content companies are so pissed... (Score:3, Insightful)
This would be a good thing. You see, nowadays, "people with money" includes ordinary people. This may not have been the case in Bach's days, but it is now.
General wealth and the state of technology conspire to make it quite easy today for an artist to reach out to his audience and obtain money from them directly. This is his "wealthy patron" and it is the business m
Re:If the content companies are so pissed... (Score:2)
Better than the $0 they get from P2P. But thanks for replying AC.
Re:If the content companies are so pissed... (Score:2)
There are so many good indie groups out there making films that there is no way in hell that the consumer would have nothing to watch, Hell if all the big MPAA Studios were to stop making films the overall quality and quantity of films would go up drastically.
Actors are not worth $1.2+ million dollars for a film. And Indie films prove that.
I say tear them all down, give us better films (instead of remakes of remakes) and
Re:If the content companies are so pissed... (Score:2)
I'd like to see an indie studio do LOTR and compare it with the latest attempt from Hollywood.
Re:If the content companies are so pissed... (Score:3, Funny)
A man kills an orange. The stampede of giraffes fly Mozart blue. All the lightbulbs vanish in the end.
Ok, so you don't like it, but at least it's original (sortof).
Re:If the content companies are so pissed... (Score:2)
So, now that we've eliminated that example, can anyone come up with a story line that isn't made up by a combination of the Sev-err, Eight Basic Plots?
We're best buddies (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:If the content companies are so pissed... (Score:4, Informative)
Wrong.
Check out how $16-1c paid for a single record gets split (source:
$0.17 Musicians' unions
$0.80 Packaging/manufacturing
$0.82 Publishing royalties
$0.80 Retail profit
$0.90 Distribution
$1.60 Artists' royalties
$1.70 Label profit
$2.40 Marketing/promotion
$2.91 Label overhead
$3.89 Retail overhead
The only part that is not complete waste is $1.60 that goes for artists' royalties. This includes recouping all of their costs, taxes, profits, etc. Everything else is just overhead.
Pressing CDs is a matter of a few cents, boxes and covers are a bit more expensive. Distribution of CDs can be way cheaper than it is the case for daily newspapers -- a CD is a bit smaller, and no one will notice if it takes weeks instead of hours to get to its destination. You can add marketing costs if you don't believe in alternate means of promotion -- just to count all the costs in the classic way.
Every penny extra goes to anti-customer anti-artist parasites, the worst possible type of middle-men.
Now, the analysis above applies only if you use the old way -- CDs in plastic boxes. In comparison, using the Net reduces the distribution costs to fractions of cents per record -- and it can do all marketing for you as well.
So, why exactly do we need RIAA and MPAA again?
Re:If the content companies are so pissed... (Score:2)
Re:If the content companies are so pissed... (Score:2)
Decimal notation, plzkthx.
(Who the hell pays $22-$28 for a CD?)
Re:If the content companies are so pissed... (Score:2)
Re:You're a moron (Score:2)
I said I already did include all the real production costs, and made a half-assed attempt at estimating the real (that is, not what the labels quote) costs of distribution. That $1.60 mean "everything till the final sound is provided, ready for pressing into CDs and/or encoding into $digital_format _plus_ all of the artists' profits".
Even if you use electronic means of distribution, the costs from now on won't
Re:You're a moron (Score:2)
Re:If the content companies are so pissed... (Score:2)
Belive me, if I don't see another movie again, it wouldn't bother me. Same goes for current music, too (sorry for inflicting James Blunt on you, btw)
Re:If the content companies are so pissed... (Score:2)
You mean like Uwe Boll? I don't see the problem here.
this wont work (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:this wont work (Score:2)
Who cares? I'm more interested in the artists anyways, the record companies add nothing of value to music IMO. And artists will survive, even if the music business shrinks to a tenth of it's current size, artists will still make more money if we get rid of the middleman.
Re:this wont work (Score:2)
Yes and programmers are the only ones adding any value to a software company, and ASIC designers are the only ones who add value to chip companies, and engineers are the only ones who add value to automobile manufacturing. The rest is all magic and a
Re:this wont work (Score:2)
Yes and programmers are the only ones adding any value to software, and ASIC designers are the only ones who add value to the chips, and engineers are the only ones who add value to automobiles.
But I have to ask you, are you really of the opinion that advertisements, packaging, plastic discs, distribution to retail outlets and the ability to buy said plastic discs at various retail outlets add value to music? If you are, then feel free to cont
Re:this wont work (Score:2)
Let them sink then, they're the modern equivalent of parasites.
the french (Score:1, Informative)
but i'm le tired
well have a nap, THEN FIRE THE MISSILES
Re:the french (Score:2)
Yay (Score:2, Funny)
That's nice for them (Score:2, Funny)
BTW, which P2P software do the MPs prefer?
hmmm "French MPs Consider P2P Downloads Again" (Score:1)
Canada (Score:2)
Re:Canada (Score:2)
Pro Bono [yorku.ca]
Re:Canada (Score:2)
Some sense at last (Score:5, Insightful)
Wow, there is someone listening after all! Props to French MPs for standing up to the music industry.
Renaming French things (Score:2)
Look, non-news (Score:3, Insightful)
People sue over the stupidest things all the time and promptly have their case thrown out or simply end up loosing on a later date. That isn't a failure of the court system; that is simply how it works. Everyone gets make their case, no matter how stupid and inane it is. I could go sue CNN over their theft of my copyright of the word "the". Even though you can't copyright the word "the", and even if you could I still wouldn't own it, it would get posted on Slashdot like it is news. We would have a spam of posts decrying the end of the world is coming because of patents, and ignore the fact that my case is going to be thrown out as soon as a judge looks at it.
The same happens with these proposed laws. They are proposed laws, nothing more. When a state or nation enacts a law that affects geeks, THEN report it. Maybe if it is a really large and important law you might report on it before hand. A proposed French P2P doesn't even come close to meeting this criteria, nor was the proposed treat video games as porn law in Utah. Proposals are nothing more then that. Proposals. If this is passed as a law, then sure, it is news. Until then, this is just more Slashdot clutter.
Re:Look, non-news (Score:3, Informative)
In legal matters, there is never any such thing as too much information, only too litte.
But of course! (Score:2)
They need something to do after their 35 hour work week is completed and during their 5+ weeks of vacation!
(No, I'm not jealous, I'm just cracking wise. My current job (programmer) is hourly (W-2, not 1099), so I get paid for every
Re:But of course! (Score:2)
And as further evidence that I'm not working myself to death, I made my post from work
Lay Off The French OK (Score:5, Insightful)
A lot of Americans love to make a mockery of the French. A lot of this revolves around the French surrender in world war 2, and how the Americans had to "save" the French from Nazi occupation.
Let's make a few things clear here:
1) The French lost 1.5 million men in the First World War, with over 4 million wounded. [source] [wikipedia.org]. The social and moral effect of this were devestating. The French are still feeling the demographic effects to this day. Petain, the infamous Nazi collaberator dur WWII, was one of those in command during the first war and was very aware of the devestation of modern war, and one of the major reasons for the surrender was that neither he, nor a huge amount of the French public were willing to pay such a high price again.
Americans love to mock the French over this, "Cheese eating..." surrender, but think for a moment of American war sentiment in the aftermath of Vietnam. Having suffered only ~60,000 war dead, America effectively became war adverse until after the first Gulf War, and probably till this day to some extent.
Multiply that by x23 times and then try and reasses the French situation.
2) Not everyone in France rolled over and surrendered. Everyone on these boards has heard of the french resistance, and not without good cause. "La Resistance" is to this day a phrase synonomous with any freedom fighters all over the world. Try to remember that quite a lot of French people did what most americans would never do if their country was occupied. Red Dawn is a feelgood movie, not a social commentary on American patriotism.
3) This one is Serious.
America did not win the Second World War In Europe.
The western front was absolutely not what defeated Germany. No way in hell. The war was decided on the Eastern Front. Almost completely. Russia defeated the Nazi's. Not British stiff upper lips. Not the D-day Landings. No. The Russians defeated the German Army.
Don't get me wrong. The Western front was a vital moment in that it ensured western europe did not fall under another dicatorship. But please, do not bullshit either yourself or others by perpetuating this myth that America, or England, defeated the Nazi's. It wasn't Shermans that rolled into Berlin.
So take a moment to come off the pedastal, realise that not everyone in the world lives in a nice safe and secure democracy, and please, stay out of penis size competitions with the French, because they see a lot more action than American's do. Both kinds.
Disclaimer: I am not French, and to be honest, I don't like France very much.
Re:Lay Off The French OK (Score:4, Insightful)
A bit of history: http://xenophongroup.com/mcjoynt/caphenry.htm [xenophongroup.com]
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Lay Off The French OK (Score:3, Informative)
It's a moot point, obviously, and since it didn't happen we can go back and forth on it all day.... frankly if you want to come up with a trite conclusion as to why we're not all speaking German right now, I
Re:Bring out the grognards (Score:2)
I have to pipe in because I am a certified wargamer and have actually thought about this issue in order to win as Germany in various War games.
There are 3 times the Germans could have won the War in the East.
That and the French make good targets (Score:2)
Well, on the flipside many visible French figures have a real cultural superiority complex, the "Our culture is so much better than yours." Things such as a branch of the government to ensure that the French language stays "pure" from outside
Re:Lay Off The French OK (Score:2)
Re:Lay Off The French OK (Score:2)
Re:The French got what they deserved (Score:2)
Napoleon crowned himself, he didn't need anyone to do that, and he was actually a fucking smart guy, most french laws still come from Napoleon's Code which was one of the most advanced pieces of civil law at the time.
I fail to see how he was evil, too. Sure he did declare war to everyone in europe, but then again you couldn't live 10 years without a war somewhere at that time, and france, being the biggest and most populated country of the western world (even before the napoleonic wars) had it's share of i
Re:Lay Off The French OK (Score:2)
Re:Lay Off The French OK (Score:2)
Re:Lay Off The French OK (Score:2)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaa!
Oh God, that's the funniest thing I've ever read here. Please tell me you're not serious? The irony here is just incredible.
FYI, the French were having a war against the rebels in Vietnam, and were doing rather badly at it. They decided to give it up as a lost cause, and pissed off home. Then the Americans decided that if the French weren't going to fight the Commies in 'Nam, then by golly they'd have to d
Re:Lay Off The French OK (Score:2)
Huh? What the fuck?
No, the US refused to help France in Viet Nam (refused to provide air support at Dien Bien Phu notably), leading to French withdrawal, leading to US being sucked into the "quagmire".
I must say... (Score:3, Interesting)
I've always said that I wish the movies, music, and whatever industries would just get together and charge a flat fee, and offer all their content for one monthly fee. It might be expensive, say 100 a month or something, but that would be better I think. That way the people who like music more wouldn't be punished by the RIAA or have to buy a billion CDs for 15 a piece. You don't have to go bankrupt to be interested in pop culture and we can finally have a truly free exchange of information. How many people buy more than 100 dollars a month worth of movies and music anyway? I know I'd be under that bar even if I was still buying albums. I think this french thing is a great idea.
Re:I must say... (Score:2)
The media we're talking about here, music, movies etc. are all entertainment. How "much" entertainment do we need? Should we just let people produce and produce
France is doing quite well right now (Score:5, Insightful)
Energy. 80% of electricity in France comes from nuclear plants. Most of the rest is from hydroelectric plants. Cheapest electricity in Europe. France exports electricity. Now that's energy independence.
Back in 1973, at the first "oil shock" of the Arab oil embargo, there was debate in France over what to do. The decision was made to go for energy independence. Unlike in the US, that decision was carried out. And now France is reaping the rewards. They don't have to fight wars for oil.
Re:France is doing quite well right now (Score:2)
The decision for energy independance actually started with De Gaulle, whose one and only goal was to make France a leading country of the world again (or part of the leading gang, which is also a reason why he pushed forward a unified europe, nuclear research including nukes, space research (france was the third country to send a satellite to orbit, after the Soviet Union and the USA), and getting as fast as possible out of the US' economic clutches).
While the 1973 Oil Schock did speed up things, the "Ene
Whom do the fees go to, and who decides that?? (Score:2, Interesting)
FTA:
So the money goes to the artists. But how is the pot of gold divided up?? Are the numbers of downloads for each artist monitored and the money is returned to the artists proportionately to that? Or are there blanket statements made along the lines of: "well so and so was top-40 last year so he's getting a lot" and "never heard of Wolf Parade so they must be terrible so
Sign the Petition (Score:2, Informative)
Puzzling, isn't it? (Score:2)
Makes sense to me (Score:2)
Socialists countries always give consumers extra rights at the expense of producers. How is this any different? In America producers and consumers pay an agreed upon price by both for a product, and either can walk away if they don't agree.
question about the writeup (Score:3, Interesting)
"This announcement caused outrage from the music and movie groups, but excitement from the vast majority of civilians."
I've read a few articles on this, but none have supported the claim that this was supported by the "vast majority" of civilians.
As a sanity check, I most certainly would not want a socialized music system in the US. I don't want to pay a tax for something I wouldn't use. Of the people who are within 50 feet of me at this moment, some might like the idea, some might hate it, but most of them couldn't care less. When I expand this circle to include everybody in my family, the "couldn't care less" ratio increases dramatically.
Is it really the case that the French are different, and the "vast majority" of them want a socialized music system?
My guess is that the writer has made the assumption that because all of his friends happen to be file sharing fans (which is plausible, if he's in high school or college, and/or his friends all happen to be nerds as well), then this mindset is shared by everybody.
Re:question about the writeup (Score:3, Insightful)
Or, if you live in France, you now pay a tax as part of local taxes to finance public TV. Whatever you have a TV set or not, and whatever you watch public T
Re:question about the writeup (Score:2)
Thanks for the insight! For what it's worth, I emailed a few people I know who live in France, and they hadn't even heard of it. I will take you at your word that the vast majority of French citizens know about, and support this bill, and chalk it up to bad sampling on my part. However, I don't think your statement that SACEM is "much like the RIAA" is correct. SACEM -- like our ASCAP and BMI -- represents artists and performers (including visual artists and poets), while our RIAA represents record comp
This is not good. (Score:2, Insightful)
How is this project going to work? Will the French government give the artists as much money as it feels appropriate, so the manufacturers of a product cannot set their prices? Freedom? They can't just l
Allow me some doubt (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:The basic issue (Score:3, Informative)
Re:The basic issue (Score:2)
Re:The basic issue (Score:2)
Re:The basic issue (Score:2)
Re:The basic issue (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The basic issue (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:The basic issue (Score:2)
The radio stations play exactly what they think that the public wants to hear, no more and no less. That's why they spend millions of dollars a year on focus groups and surveys and everything else. If you live in Brooklyn and turn on the radio and hear a lot of urban and rap stations, with maybe some alternative and spanish-language stations thrown in for good measure, it's not because someone in the ClearChannel Secre
Re:The basic issue (Score:2)
Re:The basic issue (Score:2)
Re:The basic issue (Score:2)
Are you aware that these acts are forbidden in most of europe, along with holocaust denial?
Re:The basic issue (Score:2)
Re:The basic issue (Score:2)
Another common mistake people make is thinking that the french army fought at all during WWII. The 360.000 dead or wounded obviously dropped their guns on their feet when they surrendered or something.
Depends on what you mean by free speech (Score:2)
However, the French do have laws that protect personal privacy. Also, EU countries have signed up to the UN Declaration on Human Rights - unlike the US - and that carries implications that there will be laws against one section of the community stirring up hatred against another. If that is curtailment of freedom of speech, I think m
Re:Depends on what you mean by free speech (Score:2)
I'm always suspicious of people that want to put limits on the flow of ideas, e.g. speech. If an idea is abhorrent or rings false to most people, they will speak and act against the speaker. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from the consequences of one's speech. There is no need for a society to stop any form of pure speech before it starts.
Re:Depends on what you mean by free speech (Score:2)
Wrong on point one, how about actual facts on point two.
Re:Depends on what you mean by free speech (Score:5, Insightful)
I am always suspicious of the people who try to extend the notion of freedom of speech to include the publication of actual lies.
Popular speech does not need to be protected. The only interesting freedom of speech is freedom of unpopular speech.
To not bash the French (just for variety), in Germany you can go to jail for 3 years for disrespecting another's religion, as the man who was selling toilet paper with the word "koran" printed on it has learned. So inoffensive speech is presumably protected, but expression that offends someone? Off to jail for 3 years.
Freedom of speech is exactly freedom of highly offensive speech. Why do people have a hard time with this concept? If you want to value "not offending people" higher than freedom of speech, that's fine for you, but don't call the result "freedom of speech", call it something else.
Re:Depends on what you mean by free speech (Score:2)
Re:Depends on what you mean by free speech (Score:2)
Interesting.
Re:Cour de cassation? (Score:2)
Re:Cour de cassation? (Score:2)
From your link:
It's a french loan word. It's even spelled the french way in modern english. It's not an english word any more than Gran Turismo is Japanese :P
Re:Cour de cassation? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Cour de cassation? (Score:2)
I know a thing or two about loan words, I'm a native French speaker myself (stereotypical bilingual Canadian), I was trying to say that it's one of the words that is also spelt the exact same way in English and has an English definition in the dictionary
Re:Cour de cassation? (Score:2)
Re:Cour de cassation? (Score:2)
Re:Cour de cassation? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Cour de cassation? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Cour de cassation? (Score:2)
And a last note : the European court of Human Rights is higher than the Cour de Cassation. But its scope is limite
Re:Cour de cassation? (Score:2)
MP == Member of Parliament (Score:3, Informative)
Re:MP (Score:2)
Roughly equivalent to a senator (I think), although there is quite a big difference in how the systems work.
Re:MP (Score:2)
Puh-TAY-toe, Puh-TAH-toe.
Re:Oh I get it (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Ok, show of hands (Score:2)
Re:MPAA OK, RIAA EVIL? (Score:2)
Re:The French: (Score:2)
Re:Misguided (Score:3, Insightful)
Sadly, I can anticipate the answer to your question about the little guy. It goes something like this:
"If musicians are so worried about making money, then they're businesspeople, not musicians. They should be in the business just for the love of creating. If they want money, they can play live concerts, or give away their music for free and beg for donations. And remember that Beethoven didn't care about money; he did it for the love of music.(*)"
But seriously, Canada and (to a lesser degree) the