New York Times sues DoD over Domestic Spying 511
gbobeck writes "Yahoo News is reporting that the New York Times has filed suit against the U.S. Defense Department. The suit is seeking the release of all relevant documents and a list of people targeted by the NSA domestic spying program. As stated in the article: 'The Times had requested the documents in December under the Freedom of Information Act but sued upon being unsatisfied with the Pentagon's response that the request was being processed as quickly as possible, according to the six-page suit filed at federal court in New York.'"
The Administration That Made Foot-Dragging An Art (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's the Associated Press article [firstamendmentcenter.org] on the same subject...contains a bit more info on the actual request than the Reuters copy, including:
From TFA:
Coming from an administration that took 411 days to set up a Public Inquiry into 9/11, the most significant terrorist attack in the history of the American nation, this amont of foot-dragging is a mere warm-up. Expect this to go nowhere fast.
Good move, outlook not so good (Score:4, Insightful)
I know the attacks I'll face but look; 9/11, Katrina, the deficit, the protracted war in Iraq; do you really feel safer with what this government is doing? Does it seem like they're always prepared to serve OUR best interests? Call me an idealist, but come on, with all the crap that's gone down the American people DESERVE to know what's going on; the blind leading the blind routine is old, let's get an educated populus for our next election!
(of course the republican's scare tactics will be put on full force: 9/11, terrorism, weapons of mass destruction, attacked on our shores, this post 9/11 world, defending the homeland, evildoers determined to do us harm, etc)
Re:once again this proves.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh you mean that loosely defined "send our troops anywhere and disregard local laws" bit
As for "oh well monitoring the middle east calls is ok isn't it?" the point of the "slippery slope" is where does it end? It's easier for me to enter Romania of all places then it is the united states. Land of freedom? My ass. I can visit the UK for upto 6 months. I can't do that in the USA (or ireland for that matter
Tom
Re:Interesting... (Score:5, Insightful)
If you are going to get into past presidents, lets talk about who gave weapons and money to terrorists in Iran and Nicaragua, hmm?
Why all the secrecy (Score:5, Insightful)
First, they're probably spying on all of us. That is to say, they are probably just recording as much as humanly possible and then going back to review calls and other communications which their datamining and watch lists suggest have the highest probability of yielding results. They can't explain this to anyone, save for a few pliable Congressional reps, because the law says they're not supposed to do that first part without a warrant. I believe they started the program under the belief that if a tree falls in the woods, but nobody goes back to review the tape, then they weren't spying on the tree. The problem with this is that now we're getting even further away from this concept of Democracy our leaders spout off about when referring to the rest of the world. I know we've always been a representative democracy, but if we can't have transparency to the voters, it's really just a dictatorship by whomever presents the cleanest TV image.
Second, they don't want to explain how they're spying because any system is easy to circumvent when you know how that system works. Unfortunately, if you really believe in our system and our morals and our way of life, then you have to stand behind it and expect that it will hold up to a little transparency. Anyone who simply discards our rules as they see fit is, quite simply, un-American.
Yeah, real principled (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:once again this proves.... (Score:4, Insightful)
And you seem to forget you can't declare war on an idea. A formal declaration of war means cessation of trading, recalling foreign diplomats, sending troops to defeat a foreign power and occupy.
You got the last part down, but last I checked YOU STILL HAVE A SAUDI EMBASSY IN THE STATES.
Oh yeah, where did the 9/11 "terrorists" come from? Iraq? Afghanistan?
You really need to stop watching Fox News.
tom
Re:once again this proves.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Against who, exactly?
Re:Those who fear the government... (Score:5, Insightful)
Those who fear the government... Are doing something illegal.
What about those who fear, and have been proven correct repeatedly that individuals within the government are the ones doing something illegal? What is it about the government that makes you think anyone elected or assigned to a post within it should immediately be able to commit crimes?
I am completely fine with government doing what is reasonably neccessary to protect me even if my phone conversation with my ji-had buddies is being listened in on.
And you can provide what assurances that this what they are doing instead of illegally spying on political opponents and blackmailing other government officials as has happened every other time a government agency has lost transparency?
I know that we should have freedoms, but in a post 9-11 age, there is certain information that should not be released for the public to have. This is why we elect government officials. I love freedom, but I am willing to give some up if it means my wife and daughter are safer as a result.
What makes you think your family is any safer? They are already about as likely to die by accidentally drowning in a bucket as by being killed by terrorists. The risk of terrorists is statistically negligible and the actions taken by the administration seem mostly to be PR. People are forced to stand in extra long lines at the airport so they can feel safe but investigative reporters can still sneak anything they want on board and random people accidentally board while wearing six inch hunting knives they forgot about. What makes you think that anyone is even trying to make your family safer? More successful attacks result in more fear and more opportunities for bureaucrats to expand their power and make money. Hell Iraq is the fastest way conceivable to make terrorists who hate the US. We've done everything possible to create angry, frightened people with nothing to lose and an unbelievable hatred of the US.
Cowards like you make me sick. You cringe in fear at a PR campaign and willingly give up all the freedoms your ancestors fought for in the hopes that someone else will protect you, even though they have no reason to do so. If you want to be a coward at least be a smart coward and act in ways that might protect you, rather than ways that history has shown will lead to more suffering and pain.
Re:we need to thank them (Score:3, Insightful)
There are some things that should not be made public.
Re:Those who fear the government... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Those who fear the government... (Score:2, Insightful)
I figure you are already set in your ways on this topic, but I cannot let a statement like that to go on and appease others.
How much? How much freedom are you willing to give up? Quantify it for me so I can understand. Are you willing to carry ID cards all the time, that can't be that bad right. But you know, those ID cards can be duplicated, lost, stolen. Maybe we can get a RFID, but recently it's been shown to be hackable and those terrorists could steal your information.
Would you be willing to give up "some" of your freedom for a permanent tattoo. And just to help things go smoothly, the tattoo can be done on a visible part of the body. Back of the neck lets say. Maybe in the form of a barcode.
maybe that seems extreme, but the problem with "giving up" a little freedom here, a little freedom there tends to give more personal responsibility to the controlling body and less to the individual. You used examples of speeding. There are places in Europe where you can drive way over 100 mphs and not get a ticket. From experience I can say that their speed limits are more for safety then here in the U.S. Most towns coffers depend on tickets for revenue. You never had a right to go 100 mph, 55/60/whater is just an arbitrary number established to pull in dollars. Would you feel safer driving at 45 or 35 mph on the highway?
I will concur that as a society we have abdicated some aspects of privacy. When I fly I am searched. However, that is a choice. If I drive drunk, that is a choice and while I disagree with the statutes, I accept that I am choosing to fly (and be searched) or drive drunk (and face a DUI). In the issue regarding wiretapping by the NSA, there is no choice. Someone else *made* that choice and invaded the privacy of an American citizen. This is akin to the NSA busting down the door of a "suspected" terrorist with no warrant and saying it is legal because of the War.
It is not legal. The Police, the NSA, nobody in power can just "choose" to invade your privacy without due case, without judicial oversight. To give that up is not giving away a little freedom, it is giving away the core that this country was founded on.
At issue here is not whether bad guys should be monitored, tapped, or busted into. Most citizens, right/left/centrist would feel that if people are committing crimes the law needs to take action. the *issue* is that an agency(s) were directed to step outside the law, step outside the checks and balances this country stands for and accuse citizens without just cause.
This.Is.Wrong.
From the way you wrote your comment I figure you are entrenched in the idea that giving up these small freedoms will make you fee safer. Why? Because allowing the Government to break the law will catch more terrorists? With the current state of affairs in the world, there is an endless supply of people to join the cause so I doubt it would reduce the number of evil doers. Will it thwart plans to perform a terrorist act? How plans do you think these guys have? More then one or two I suspect. So we stopped an attack on LAX; they may have 4 ways to blow Boulder Dam, 6 ways to bring the northeast corridor to a halt, 10 ways to disrupt (aka kill) people in crowds. I felt "safer" flying three weeks after 9/11 because every person on that plane knew...knew that if a terrorist stood up and said "This is a high...." Bam, pow, uff and he would be on the floor with 10 bodies holding him down. Today I fear to fly not because of the terrorist, because the government has done nothing to really stop the problem why that man is on the plane.
before you give up your freedoms (which by the way are mine as well and I do not give them up so easily) why not ask the government what it is doing to stop the hatred that feeds terrorists. Ask the government to work on having this country not be such a target for hate
Re:we need to thank them (Score:3, Insightful)
Very possibly. Which government rewrote your history, and how recently?
Re:we need to thank them (Score:5, Insightful)
Tell them what?
That the incompetence if not outright malice of their government allowed their deaths?
That their deaths were willfully misused as an excuse to invade a country that had nothing to do with their deaths?
That their deaths are being used as an excuse to pass a whole slew of anti-Liberty legislation?
That their deaths are used by the President to open torture camps, to piss all over the constitution woithout doing a single thing to address the actual issues that lead to their deaths?
Hell, their deaths weren't even in vain, they were maliciously used for purely foul purposes.
Fuck that dude. I don't have the heart to tell them. How about you tell them.