Teenager Wins Email Suit Against City of Kokomo 354
An anonymous reader writes "Recently, a 16 year old sued the city of Kokomo, Indiana for access to an email list that he suspected the mayor was mis-using for political purposes. Despite the mayor's refusal to give in, the teenager won the case. The city will have to pay not only for the expensive attorneys they hired, but may have to compensate the 16 year old's pro-bono counsel."
Now you've done it (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Now you've done it (Score:5, Funny)
You're welcome.
Pro-Bono Compensation (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Pro-Bono Compensation (Score:5, Informative)
Kokomo.. didn't the Eagles sing something about that.. or was that somewhere in hawaii?
You're thinking "contingent fee" (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a quaint idea, doing something because it's the right thing to do. I don't doubt that increased notoriety is an incentive for pro bono work, although many pro bono cases are ones that will never garner much attention. In this case, I think the judge was eager to punish the defendant, and ordered the pro bono attorney's fees calculated so he'd have an excuse for making the punishment heavier.
obligatory grammar correction (Score:5, Informative)
actually, it's "pro bono publico"-- since the adjective (publico) modifies the object (bono) of the preposition (pro), it must agree in case (in this case, ablative).
I might not know a lick about C syntax, but I can certainly remember my Latin....
Re:obligatory grammar correction (Score:5, Funny)
Hic, haec, hoc
Huius, huius, huis
--Mike
I, for one (Score:5, Funny)
Ego, ex mea parte, saluto dominos nostros novos grammaticos!
obligatory python reference (Score:5, Funny)
Centurion: What's this thing? "ROMANES EUNT DOMUS"? "People called Romanes they go the house?"
Brian: It... it says "Romans go home".
Centurion: No it doesn't. What's Latin for "Roman"?
Brian hesitates
Centurion: Come on, come on!
Brian: (uncertain) "ROMANUS".
Centurion: Goes like?
Brian: "-ANUS".
Centurion: Vocative plural of "-ANUS" is?
Brian: "-ANI".
Centurion: (takes paintbrush from Brian and paints over) "RO-MA-NI". "EUNT"? What is "EUNT"?
Brian: "Go".
Centurion: Conjugate the verb "to go"!
Brian: "IRE". "EO", "IS", "IT", "IMUS", "ITIS", "EUNT".
Centurion: So "EUNT" is
Brian: Third person plural present indicative, "they go".
Centurion: But "Romans, go home!" is an order, so you must use the
He lifts Brian by his short hairs
Brian: The
Centurion: Which is?
Brian: Um, oh, oh, "I", "I"!
Centurion: How many Romans? (pulls harder)
Brian: Plural, plural! "ITE".
Centurion strikes over "EUNT" and paints "ITE" on the wall
Centurion: "I-TE". "DOMUS"? Nominative? "Go home", this is motion towards, isn't it, boy?
Brian: (very anxious) Dative?
Centurion draws his sword and holds it to Brian's throat
Brian: Ahh! No, ablative, ablative, sir. No, the, accusative, accusative, ah, DOMUM, sir.
Centurion: Except that "DOMUS" takes the
Brian:
Centurion: Which is?
Brian: "DOMUM".
Centurion: (satisfied) "DOMUM"...
He strikes out "DOMUS" and writes "DOMUM"
Centurian:
Brian: Yes sir.
Centurion: Now write it down a hundred times.
Brian: Yes sir, thank you sir, hail Caesar, sir.
Centurion: (saluting) Hail Caesar. If it's not done by sunrise, I'll cut your balls off.
Brian: (very relieved) Oh thank you sir, thank you sir, hail Caesar and everything, sir!
Critical mass (Score:4, Insightful)
Language learning in my experience, requires a certain "critical mass" before it becomes useful, fun, or amusing. Two semesters of anything is rarely enough.
Add to this the dismal state of language instruction generally, and Latin instruction in particular, in American schools. Most people have almost nothing to show for two semesters of Latin these days: they can't even read or write simple sentences, or have any appreciation for the language, because, frankly, they haven't put enough work in.
This is true for all language learning in America, I think, and for me, particularly appalling when it comes to Spanish (my other language). Standards are so diluted as to be meaningless, and there is no content to language education. Generations of otherwise-bright kids are being doomed to lives of dull monolingualism, with all of its consequences: intolerance, ignorance, and an inability to compete in the global marketplace.
Re:obligatory grammar correction (Score:3, Funny)
Another Latin phrase we used as pledges of my fraternity on a banner for the Delta Delta Delta Decathalon:
Veni, Vidi, VD. I came, I saw, I canckered.
Needless to say, the ladies of Tri-Delt were not impressed.
--Mike
Re:Pro-Bono Compensation (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Pro-Bono Compensation (Score:3, Informative)
I think that was the Beach Boys. Although I think you're refering to Cocomug, which some of them might be sipping right now in their retirement home.
Re:"Kokomo" (Score:3, Informative)
(see these wikipedia [wikipedia.org] articles [wikipedia.org]
Re:Pro-Bono Compensation (Score:3, Insightful)
Shouldn't -- in a more perfect world -- the people who actually misbehaved pay, not the political entity that they were elected to? Which ultimately means, the taxpayers?
Now to work. And when I get home, I'll see if the issue is addressed in the actual article, or in posts I haven't read yet. -Eric
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Pro-Bono Compensation (Score:3, Informative)
Not that this guy maybe didn't do it purely out of the goodness of his heart anyway, I just think the idea is sweetly nostalgic.
Re:Pro-Bono Compensation (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Pro-Bono Compensation (Score:3, Interesting)
I wonder how "recommended" it really is. I mean, you're recommended to give to the collections in church, but people give you dirty looks if you don't
Re:Pro-Bono Compensation (Score:3, Funny)
Especially when you run away with the plate.
Re:Pro-Bono Compensation (Score:3, Informative)
Since we're already off-topic, how do you figure this? Most people I know tithe once a month. You've usually got different ushers passing around the collection plate, so why in the world would somebody give you dirty looks if you've only got a one in four chance of putting anything in the pot per month anyway? I've been an usher, and I tend to avoid looking at people so that they *don't* think
Re:Pro-Bono Compensation (Score:2, Insightful)
"Groth took the case on a pro-bono basis, but Murray asked for an accounting of Groth's fees in her ruling. Groth said Tuesday it's likely he could bill several thousand dollars for the case."
Next time try to do your homework first.
Re:Pro-Bono Compensation (Score:2)
Re:Pro-Bono Compensation (Score:2)
He apparently didn't ask for it, so it sounds like it's a little bit of a punitive slap at the city for wasting everyone's time.
Hoosier politics 101 (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Hoosier politics 101 (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Hoosier politics 101 (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Hoosier politics 101 (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Hoosier politics 101 (Score:2)
I'm not defending the FOP. Between them and PHV (Paralyized Hoosier Veterans), the two of them make up the majority of telemarking calls my house gets as well as my parents. But saying the are extorting money, or even coming close, it a little excessive.
Re:Hoosier politics 101 (Score:2)
Wikipedia with the assist!
Incidentally, it also lists "coercion by threat" as a definition. The mere pretension of being a Figure of Authority might be enough to swing that, if the judge was on crack, maybe. It's kinda like the grey area where a police officer saying "sir, please let me take a look inside the vehicle" is technically an innoculous request a
Re:Hoosier politics 101 (Score:2)
I've received numerous calls by FOP. I've never feeled "threatened" by them, no more then what I might be by a commission appliance salesman at Sears. Telemarketers (or in this case telefundraisers) are salesman. They get paid if they "sell" something...so obviously they are going to lean on you a little to make the "sale".
FOP? (Score:2)
Guessing:
"Fat Old Politicians"?
"Freaky Omniscient Paladins"?
"Flatulence On Parade"?
"Fallacious Optometrist Propagandists"?
Re:FOP? (Score:3, Informative)
And as a previous poster alluded to, having a FOP sticker on your car pretty much makes you immune to minor traffic violations. At least that's the myth in Indiana......
Re:FOP? (Score:2)
Re:FOP? (Score:2)
I've heard that story in various places. It might even be true in some of them. No doubt the folks who do the fund-raising for FOPs are very careful to unconvincingly deny the rumor, if they're asked. Deny it because it's essentially bribery, but deny it unconvincingly because I'm sure it gets people with more money than ethics to suppo
Re:Hoosier politics 101 (Score:2)
-Eric
A better headline... (Score:5, Insightful)
Now if only the rest of the country could get around to holding their political leaders accountable for their misdeeds.
Re:A better headline... (Score:2)
Beyond the knee-jerk reaction (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Beyond the knee-jerk reaction (Score:2)
I certainly don't want government institiutions making it easy for people to get such lists out of them, although it should be possible.
Re:Beyond the knee-jerk reaction (Score:4, Insightful)
I side with the city here but the judge is not out of line making the ruling that was handed down. This is just more evidence of how behind the times our laws are and this is one possible way for spammers and scammers to exploit that.
And the article reflects that... (Score:2)
What it sounds like to me is he wanted an electronic version. They said "no, you can come in and hand copy the list yourself, but that's all you get". Which is completely reasonable. I work in local government and it's well known that almost anything we do is public record (very few exceptions). Ho
Re:I guess he doesn't have a car... (Score:2)
what's so good about this? (Score:4, Interesting)
So any Spammer can now just request these lists to get free verified addresses?
How is that in the public interest? What laws are the basis for this?
Re:what's so good about this? (Score:3, Insightful)
In this case, the public interest seems obvious to me: did the city abuse a general-purpose/nonpolitical mailing list to send political/partisan mail? I, for one, would not welcome the local overlords spamming me when I'm not a member of their party.
Re:what's so good about this? (Score:2)
Re:what's so good about this? (Score:2)
Maybe that's what he has done anyway: get some dealer to "hand-copy" the addresses for him, whit plausible deniability as part of the deal, it's what I would do to cover my ass.
Spamming is bad, but what does it matter where the adresses came from?
Re:what's so good about this? (Score:5, Insightful)
So the case they're faced with is that someone asked for a copy of a public record and the city tried to make it difficult with the intent of preventing the person from obtaining the list. They didn't tell him he had to hand-copy it because they didn't have it in electronic form. They did it with the intent of making it unreasonably difficult to acquire a copy of the list, which directly opposes the spirit of the law regarding public record.
The appropriate step is legislative. Extend to e-mail addresses the same protections as mailing addresses.
Re:what's so good about this? (Score:2)
I think I understand.
You mean it's like the way the First Am
Re:what's so good about this? (Score:2)
Re:what's so good about this? (Score:2)
This is just stupid. Would anyone like anyone to maintain any lists of people they want to exterminate, secret or open?
Re:what's so good about this? (Score:2)
If it's not being filtered at your ISP, then it's slowing down your connection just downloading the stuf
What about privacy? (Score:3, Insightful)
This is just typical of Slashdot. If Sony wanted the list for the same reason, then the privacy of the email recipients would matter. Since there's a teenager involved, it's OK for him to violate their privacy all he wants.
It just proves that Slashdoters don't really care about privacy at all. It's just a tool to advance other agendas or bash your enemies.
Re:What about privacy? (Score:2)
The purpose of this case was to determine if the Mayor had been misuing those addresses in the first place. Those people might have liked to know that their privacy had been violated by the people they had submitted it to. Two wrongs don't make a right, but if the first wrong turns out to be true, the second in this case sure goes a long way towards providing the information necesssary to fix the first.
Re:what's so good about this? (Score:2)
How is that in the public interest? What laws are the basis for this?
The problem is that many freedoms and rights can have both good and bad uses.
The good use here is that now Nees has what he needs to prove that McKillip is, in fact, one of those spammers who has been mis-using the city's email newsletter list to feed hist own personal list for political spam. (That is, one spammer has already grabbed a copy.
Unfortunatly, the law is not currently adequate to limit the information release to appropr
I wonder (Score:3, Funny)
Why the City Sued (Score:2, Insightful)
Ask Microsoft. They are constantly suing and being sued regardless of their guilt or innocence or even the law. They have all the money and the people suing them usually don't. They can hold out for years until their opponent's money runs out. If they lose in court, they simply appeal and in the end, when and if an appeal go
Typical of this town (Score:3, Informative)
His loss is a community loss in tax dollars, which, when considering that Delphi Automotive, one of the city's two largest corporations is in bankruptcy is quite irresponsible.
Kokomo Resident (Score:5, Informative)
Really, he is the worst mayor we have had here for quite a while. Delphi and Chrysler, Kokomo's top employers have both recently laid off people. Kokomo is on a downfall and MAtt McKillip isn't helping it.
Re:Kokomo Resident (Score:3, Interesting)
Those revelations will only come as a suprise to those who do not live in or near kokomo. Having lived in the state of Indiana for a few years longer than I would have liked, I cant see anything here that the local populace wouldnt VOLUNTARILY elect into a public office. The 'small town' life has many, MANY, many dark secrets to it. As far as I can see, this mayor is simply a mirror of the populace he represents.
Piece of advice, MOVE! Until you remove yourself from that atmosphere for an extended amount of
Re:Kokomo Resident (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Kokomo Resident (Score:2)
That's a good point, i spent all of high school in a town with less then 1000 people. There's this mentality that small towns are all "church and apple pie" but that is far from the truth. Now I live in downtown Dallas and will never ever go back to my hometown.
Re:Kokomo Resident (Score:2)
Re:Kokomo Resident (Score:2)
Oh but why not! Why shouldn't the Kokomo Tribune's servers tremble with the power of thousands of outraged geeks?
Secondly this is only one of Matt McKillip's blunders. He has commented how he thinks divorce should be illegal in the city of Kokomo, had a "prayer chapel" installed in a Redi-Med type medical center to prevent a bar from being turned into a strip club, given top jobs to campaign contibutors, changed traditionally public meetings to invite only,
Re:Kokomo Resident (Score:2)
I'd really hate to see this guy go any further if he's in the business of pushing morals on others, then turning around and misusing information about his constituents.
Re:Kokomo Resident (Score:3, Interesting)
First of all, the prayer chapel had been there when the medical facilities was opened. It is part of a Catholic owned hospital chain. Two, there are two other churches within reach.
He is trying to promote family instead of a "get married, if it doesn't work out, who cares?" attitude, since the divorce rate in Kokomo is approx. 50%.
The public meetings? He did so in accordance to law. Those meetin
Re:Kokomo Resident (Score:4, Insightful)
> Wow! So let me get this straight. Trying to protect the citizens is something to attack the mayor on, right?
You'll have a hard time convincing anyone here that offering a list for hand-copying but not in a more suitable format is "trying to protect the citizens" and not "trying to make the investigation so painful that it'll go away." Moreover, once it became clear that the law wasn't going to support him directly, capituating would be more in the interests of his constiuency than fighting to the bitter and very expensive end.
> He is trying to promote family instead of a "get married, if it doesn't work out, who cares?" attitude, since the divorce rate in Kokomo is approx. 50%.
Firstly, the divorce rate nationwide is around 50 percent, and secondly, there's a huge span between wanting to promote family and commenting that divorce should be criminalized. That he would even think that, much less say it, indicates that he's far too concerned with pushing his brand of morality on others to be entrusted with public office.
> The public meetings? He did so in accordance to law. Those meetings were suppose to be closed.
Is the definition of "public" in public meetings somehow confusing to you? What reasonable argument can you present that meetings of public officials discussing public business shouldn't be open to the public? What could a mayor possibly talk about in meetings that the general public shouldn't have access to? Last I checked, mayors don't discuss military or classified subjects in the course of their duties. It sounds more like he wants to talk about stuff that he'd rather his constituents don't hear about, and because of the above-stated reasons I suspect that means stuff that would get him in trouble if he wasn't allowed to control access. That's unacceptable in a public office.
> Maybe those "top campaign" contributers are the most qualified? Oh, and EVERY policitian does that.
First, you argue that these top contributors got the jobs for being most qualified, then you excuse the behavior by saying "every politician does that". Which is it? Did they get the jobs by being qualified, or should we excuse the cronyism because it's widespread? Didn't your mother teach you that "everyone does it" doesn't make it right?
To put it bluntly, these comments of yours do little to reassure me that you're anything more than a shill. After the list I just reviewed, reading that you think he's an honest man carries no weight because I see nothing in your testimony that leads me to think you're an unbiased or honest commentator. Here's a hint: when you say that even after you no longer work with him, that you can call or email him and he'll respond personally, that says to others that you're a part of his inner circle. Maybe you should check to see whether the average citizen can do that before you try to use it to demonstrate that he's not better to those he knows than everyone else. People who are only honest and open with their friends aren't generally considered honest and open.
Virg
A few things FTA (Score:4, Informative)
I know it would've been a major pain to hand copy, but if this was a real effort by the teen to research and uncover abuse, why not just copy them down? I mean this has taken over a year now. He could have hand copied them and been done with it long before now.
"Murray said the law, which restricts access to mailing addresses, doesn't extend to e-mail addresses..."
This tells me that the City wasn't asking the teen to hand copy the addresses just to be jerks about it. They were applying an existing law for mailing addresses to email addresses. Seems reasonable to me.
"Groth took the case on a pro-bono basis, but Murray asked for an accounting of Groth's fees in her ruling. Groth said Tuesday it's likely he could bill several thousand dollars for the case."
Before we attack the bloodsucking lawyer, the compensation for the pro-bono part of this was the judges idea. This goes to show that we probably need some way of reeling in some of these justices. I mean, it's one thing if she wants to pay this lawyer out of her pocket, but she just imposed a huge bill on the tax payers of that city to pay someone who was fine doing this for free (free meaning the publicity).
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Who else read the subject and then... (Score:4, Funny)
Aruba, Jamaica
Ooh I wanna take ya
To Bermuda, Bahama
Come on pretty mama
Key Largo, Montego
Baby why don't we go
Ooh I wanna take you down to Kokomo
We'll get there fast
And then we'll take it slow
That's where we wanna go
Way down to Kokomo
I think I need more coffee this morning. And maybe a lobotomy so I can forget the late 80s/early 90s once and for all. The booze doesn't seem to be working.
Re:Who else read the subject and then... (Score:4, Funny)
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.
City of Kokomo. (Score:5, Funny)
(Two cymbals and a snare drum fall down a canyon.)
Re:City of Kokomo. (Score:2)
Freedom of Information Act (Score:5, Interesting)
Aside from the Freedom of Information Act [wikipedia.org], I could think of a ton of good reasons why this kid should get this or why anyone should be able to get a list like this. Whatever happened to the good old days where we were encouraged to snail mail every single person representing us in office?
When I was younger, I was pretty dissatisfied with the insane food prices at my high school. Even worse was the fact that my parents were making me pay for my own food. So I threatened the school with the Freedom of Information Act and demanded to see all food related reciepts and documents including pay and taxes. They gave me two huge boxes full of crap and I spent one night sorting through everything. And, surprisingly enough, after I sorted through and found out how much they were paying Arrowmark or whoever the food service provider was--it just didn't make sense. The local grocery store had better prices.
Pressures of Cafeteria Food Preparation (Score:2)
The Rest of the Anecdote (for MagicChex) (Score:5, Interesting)
I was working with three other guys to try and figure out what suggestions to make. And also let me say that this was a high school (not a gradeschool) and there were some insanely pricey healthy foods but super cheap candy and twinkies as you went up to the cash register.
We contacted Hy-Vee (our local grocery store) and asked them how difficult (and how expensive) it would be to make regular shipments of real fruit and real food to the cafeteria. It turned out to be quite a bit cheaper than shipping it 3 hours from the nearest metropolis--imagine that!
So when we approached them with this idea, they said it wasn't that simple. That they had contracts with their distributor and they couldn't break them--which was strange because they could bring in Dominos pizza every friday.
So, in the end, they made token price adjustments on the foods to make everyone happy. A nickel here, a dime there. But the prices kept going up until they were eventually were higher than they were before. They blame that on inflation. Then I graduated and just kind of accepted that crap like that happens in hick towns like the one where I grew up.
This sounds kind of weird to me... (Score:5, Insightful)
I can sort of see his point. He was comparing two lists: a city newsletter, and one the mayor was using to build up political support. If he hand copied it, they could alway say he made a mistake or changed it, there would be no tracability. But an actual, official copy couldn't be denied. Now I understand why the mayor didn't want to give it out. It was a case of CYA.
Re:This sounds kind of weird to me... (Score:2)
That's not my view at all.
As I understand it, FOIA requests of this sort usually mean that you'd receive an electronic list in electronic form; or printed out, if needed. But there is an explicite exception for lists of mail addresses; they are also freely available, but need to be copied by hand. That way, advertizers are discouraged from getting a bunch of these lists to send ads to. The city wanted to protect email adresses in the same way, to prevent spam. That sounds very reasonable to me. But the kid
As you understand it (Score:2, Informative)
"As I understand it, FOIA requests..."
apply to FEDERAL government, not state and local.
There are laws that apply locally as well, but they obviously vary from state to state.
From wiki
"United States
Main article: Freedom of information in the United States
In the United States the Freedom of Information Act was signed into law by President Lyndon B. Johnson on July 4, 1966 and went into effect the following year. The Electronic Freedom of Information Act Amendments wer
Fitting Punishment (Score:2, Funny)
The only fitting punishment, as any Hoosier would know (that I am) is to put him in the fields and make him do some http://news.uns.purdue.edu/UNS/html4ever/990723.Ni elsen.detassel.html [purdue.edu]Corn Detasseling. It's hand-ripping slave labor. Ask anyone from around there, they'll tell that such a punishment makes Guantanamo Bay look like Club Med.
Oh wait, he still lives in Kokomo. That's punishment enough.
sean s.
Re:Fitting Punishment (Score:2)
But you are right about detassling tearing up your hands. Every year we have some noobies show up on the first day without any gloves. Their hands were usually a bloody mess by
Hand Copying allowed? (Score:3, Insightful)
What if I have a hand-held scanner (as was posted the other day on
I mean I realize that the government can legislatively make a distinction between a 3lb carrot and a 5lb carrot, but do they think they are being clever with this? Is this security through frustration/writers-cramp? Is there some time limit placed on the copier?
Does the government employ 1000s of workers to hand-compile the list initially?
Re:Hand Copying allowed? (Score:2)
FTFA . . . (Score:2)
This judge chose not to "legislate from the bench," but instead deferred to the people, via the legislature, to determine public policy. So, for this coup we have to thank a non-activist judge.
I wanted to say yay! (Score:2)
Murray said the law, which restricts access to mailing addresses, doesn't extend to e-mail addresses, as the city's attorneys contended. She said the city must turn over either a copy or an electronic copy of the list.
While I'm all for the government not being able to hide this kind of stuff (and it sounds like they weren't really, they gave the kid a chance to make his own copy, so they were making it difficult), I'm not sure I like the idea of someone being able to send a note to city h
Since it's a kid, it's ok? (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't think the government should be able to get those results, but what's with the
Not the first stone cast in this fight.... (Score:4, Informative)
This isn't the first round between McKillip and Nees. Nees had previously created a documentary film about McKillip entitled Words of Sedition: how the highest levels of power shut down free speech in Kokomo.
You can find more info on this case from when it was filed in this Indianapolis Star article [indystar.com].
You can also read more about it on Nees' personal website [ryannees.com].
You can watch Words of Sedition [wordsofsedition.com] online as well.
Move over, Michael Moore (Score:4, Informative)
I am sure we have not heard the last of this. It would not surprise me that the mayor would use the city mailing list for personal political gain, and once Ryan has the list in hand, I'm sure he will not be hesitant about making public his findings.
Check out his website [ryannees.com] for more details about this case, as well as his movie about this administration's other questionable practices. Quite impressive collection, especially for a 16 year old. Reminds me of a young Alex Jones [prisonplanet.com].
Re:Move over, Michael Moore (Score:2)
And this is just the tip of the iceberg: US Congressmen are currently purchasing email lists, cross-referencing them with geographic databases, and then sending spam^h^h^h^h informative newsletters to their constituents. The newsletters contain the appropria
Zoinks, Scoob! (Score:5, Funny)
Now, git off my lawn!
I sent a complaint into Barbara Boxers email (Score:2, Flamebait)
The real deal (Score:3, Insightful)
Why should the mayor be allowed to use this list for personal gain but the kid can't? That's why he sued for the info and I expect it's his hope that legislation will get passed to protect that list just like the snailmail addresses are protected by a law that needs to be updated to include email addresses. The kid has a definite past with the mayor. The taxpayers in Kokomo basically paid to make it legal for the mayor to use the city's newsletter list to send everyone on the list spam.
Re:Pro-bono (Score:4, Funny)
I mean... what's with wearing the sunglasses indoors? So pretentious!
Re:Pro-bono (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Compensate pro bono counsel? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Compensate pro bono counsel? (Score:2)
I guess it's a problem of generalisation - the public is not a single entity that you can either benefit or harm, it's a collection of individuals.
Re:Compensate pro bono counsel? (Score:2)
Suing the public cannot be for the public good - it doesn't make sense.
You're missing the point you just made yourself. If the public's representatives are screwing up, then hell yes, suing them is for the public good.
Where it went wrong is that the city was sued, instead of the officials responsible.
Re:Compensate pro bono counsel? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Compensate pro bono counsel? (Score:3, Insightful)
The purpose of making one side pay the other's legal fees is to encourage people to settle for a fair amount rather than fight a losing case. If we made an exception for pro bono attorneys, it would encourage an opponent of someone using a pro bono attorney to fight to the very end eve
Re:Compensate pro bono counsel? (Score:3, Insightful)