Solar Sail News and Upcoming JPL Missions 118
abkaiser writes "I had the opportunity to interview a supervisor at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory. The JPL is putting together several missions utilizing solar sail technology. The interview and article detail where NASA and the JPL are in using solar sails for applications and research.You can read the article or skip ahead to the cool pictures of prototype and proposed solar sails. The article addresses NASA's JPL solar sail missions, but not other commercial or private projects like Cosmos 1."
Who drew that pic? (Score:5, Funny)
Look closely and you'll see a well drawn Astronaut!
I wonder if his kid took part in writing this article?
Re:Who drew that pic? (Score:1)
Re:Who drew that pic? (Score:2)
Mod parent funny! (Score:1)
Re:Who drew that pic? (Score:1)
You're saying you're not impressed with my skill?
Cosmos 1 (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Cosmos 1 (Score:5, Informative)
Soviet ICBM maintenance has been way underfunded (as previously mentioned, they don't want most of them), and so when you modify a poorly maintained launch vehicle, well... it's not too surprising if it fails. More simply, if you launch on any vehicle that doesn't have a very extensive flight record for the type of task that you want to use it for, you're taking a big risk.
Re:Cosmos 1 (Score:1)
Maybe it is double-cutting: they took the cheapest route available in a low-wage country. Does the US or Europe offer a comparable "cheap" road to the sky?
Re:Cosmos 1 (Score:2, Interesting)
The US military has also converted some of its old ICBMs into peaceful launch vehicles [spacetoday.org]. I guess they are competing with NASA, because there's some regulation that these facilities can only be offered to US government or government-sponsored agencies.
Get used to it folks! What with the US anti-missile shield, in a couple of decades time there'll be thousands more missiles entering the second-hand market from such places as Russia, China, Indi
MOD PARENT UP PLEASE (Score:2)
Re:Cosmos 1 (Score:2)
Re:Cosmos 1 (Score:1)
Low price - more launches (Score:2)
Re:Cosmos 1 (Score:3, Insightful)
Excuse me, but Russian expendable launch vehicles (ELVs) are at least on par with that of the United States' in terms of performance and reliability. But accidents in spaceflight still happen, on both sides of the pond. Misplaced jingoism really has no place in scientific exploration.
Re:Cosmos 1 (Score:1)
I did not mean to imply that Russian rockets were less reliable. If I offended anybody, I apologize.
I remember this idea from years ago (Score:5, Interesting)
At the tender age of 12 (some 29 years ago) I submitted a drawing of a space ship powered by sails as part of a school homework assignment. I got the idea after visiting a friends house and seeing a strange ornament displayed in their window. It was a glass dome and inside were 4 paddles mounted cross wise (horizontally) on a vertical support. One side of each paddle was black and the other white (or silver, its hard to remember now). On a nice sunny day the paddles would start to spin. I was so enchanted by this I never forgot it, and dreamed about flying through space on solar sales for years after. I never guessed that one day I might actually get to see it in action.
Re:I remember this idea from years ago (Score:1, Funny)
Re:I remember this idea from years ago (Score:2)
LOL
Re:I remember this idea from years ago (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I remember this idea from years ago (Score:2)
There are good sites out there about it.
Re:I remember this idea from years ago (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I remember this idea from years ago (Score:3, Funny)
Re:I remember this idea from years ago (Score:1)
Re:I remember this idea from years ago (Score:2)
Radiation pressure contributes as well. Most sails are silver because reflected light provides twice the momentum as absorbed light. I can't remember what the proportion is, but both effects are significant. The charged ions carry a lot more momentum, but there are a lot fewer of them
Re:I remember this idea from years ago (Score:1)
No, not really ... it's only supposed to contribute ... you read too much Asimov and Niven ... you should try some Crichton some time ...
Do you mean that this was extensivly tested ?
Re:I remember this idea from years ago (Score:3, Informative)
Let's see... the Planetary Society says that solar wind contributes less than 1% (http://www.planetary.org/solarsail/faqs.html [planetary.org]).
There have also been laboratory experimen
Re:I remember this idea from years ago (Score:1)
Re:I remember this idea from years ago (Score:2)
Re:I remember this idea from years ago (Score:2)
Re:I remember this idea from years ago (Score:2, Informative)
By the way. It is possible to measure radiation pressure using a more refined apparatus. To make it work you have to use a much better vacuum, suspend the vanes from fine fibers and coat the vanes with an inert glass to prevent out-gassing. When you succeed the vanes are deflected the other way as predicted by Maxwell. The experiment is very difficult but was first done successfully in 1901 by Pyotr Lebedev and also by Eenest Nichols and Gordon Hull.
Re:I remember this idea from years ago (Score:2)
Re:I remember this idea from years ago (Score:3, Informative)
"The photons hitting the black side of the vanes will be absorbed transferring their momentum to the vane. Those hitting the white surface will be reflected transferring up to TWICE their momentum to the vanes.
1) In a vacuum: The above concept dominates and the white vanes trail the black vanes.
2) In a poor vacuum: the air on the black side of the vane gets heated and the air molecules give an extra "kick" to the black vane side overriding the photon momentum transfer causing the black
Re:I remember this idea from years ago (Score:2)
"The photons hitting the black side of the vanes will be absorbed transferring their momentum to the vane. Those hitting the white surface will be reflected transferring up to TWICE their momentum to the vanes.
Um, yeah, thus showing that light pressure is not the mechanism by which these things spin, since they spin the wrong way (they also reverse directions if you allow them to cool). If you'll read the rest of the thread you'll find that the explanation isn't quite as simple as the
Re:I remember this idea from years ago (Score:1)
Yes, but only in an atmosphere as the rest of the quoted explanation states.
Re:I remember this idea from years ago (Score:2)
Radiation pressure has been demonstrated, but they used very carefully balanced vanes suspended by threads. The vanes themselves need to be coated in inert glass so that outgassing isn't a factor. It's a very difficult experiment, not something that can be stored in the cupboard in science classrooms.
Radiation pressure works nicely in space tho
Re:I remember this idea from years ago (Score:1)
In the quoted explanation, it stated that in a hard vacuum, it works as described. You yourself and this site: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/Ligh tMill/light-mill.html [ucr.edu] explains that.
In a partial vacuum, (evacuated to a pressure of 10-3 to 10-4 (to the minus 3 and 4 respectively) atmospheres), it also works, due to a reaction of the remaining gasses at the edges of the black vane, overpowering the light reaction when in a vacuum.
It's the same physic
Re:I remember this idea from years ago (Score:2)
If you built a rotating ship the rotation might be affected by a soft vacuum, but the forward motion wouldn't, beyond normal slowing from having to plow through the stuff.
Re:I remember this idea from years ago (Score:4, Informative)
That was a radiometer. http://images.google.com/images?&q=radiometer [google.com]
Re:I remember this idea from years ago (Score:2)
Hey thanks
That's exactly what I saw and haven't seen one since.
JET Propulsion Laboratory (Score:1, Funny)
Why is the JPL working with solar sails? Aren't they the Jet Propulsion Laboratory? Isn't this a bit out of their department?
Re:JET Propulsion Laboratory (Score:3, Informative)
JPL never really had anything to do with jets as we know them today. My understanding is that when it was founded by some Caltech faculty and students in the 40's to do rocket research, "rocket" was kind of a dirty word due to lingering memories of German rockets in WWII. Rockets were also commonly called jets until the mid to late 40's. One of JPL's first successes was the develo
Re:JET Propulsion Laboratory (Score:2)
Having worked at JPL, I can tell you that it's still part of CalTech. I has, however, a contract from NASA to run NASA's unmanned exploration of space, and all NASA probes and sattilites are run from their.
And, to answer the original question, if solar sails are going to be used to power probes, the research would naturally be run through JPL for the above reason.
Re:JET Propulsion Laboratory (Score:1)
True. What I meant by "transferred to NASA" was that the oversight was shifted to NASA from the Department of Defense. JPL is "managed for NASA" by Caltech, which is unique among the NASA centers - JPL employees (as I'm sure you know, but others may not) get their paychecks from Caltech rather than NA
Re:JET Propulsion Laboratory (Score:1)
Reminds (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Reminds (Score:1)
Re:Reminds (Score:2)
Bajorans? (Score:1, Funny)
Did anyone else see that episode of Deep Space Nine when they used a solar sail space ship? Obviously NASA did.
Re:Bajorans? (Score:2)
Yep. I started out by whining about how the dialogue clearly implied that the distance they were travelling was interstellar, and that you can't do that in a solar sail of that size in a single episode, you'd need warp drive, that's the whole POINT you fools!... but then shut up, because it was a really damn good episode. Do I lose geek points for that? :-)
Solar sails are well nifty things... I really wish it wasn
Re:Bajorans? (Score:1)
I think they started out saying that the distances involved weren't possible as well (due to the limitations of the solar sail).
But then what do I know?
Sometimes I wonder if NASA is doing it right (Score:5, Insightful)
I have noticed that when I take on too many part time coding projects, I get none of them done right. I have a limit amount of personal coding time (maybe 1 day a week total) and working 1 hour on each of my projects doesn't get me very far on any of them. I do them all half-assed or never even complete them.
This is what I see happening with NASA.
On the other hand, I can get a lot done if I just focus on 2 projects or 3 at the most. Focus all my free coding time and energy on the 2 or 3 that I have time to do. This way I actually do a good job on the few things I do pursue, and I actually finish up on them.
I think this is what gave NASA its early successes. They focused and pushed in specific directions.. that and they had a lot more money back then.
I wonder if NASA would be better to slim down and focus on two or three goals and and drop everything else. Put it on their todo list, but not actually work on it, till higher priority goals are met. They have a severe shortage of resources, and they aren't the most efficient at using them (being a government agency after all), they could slim down and use all their resources to accomplish a smaller set of goals.. but actually ACCOMPLISH them.. not just probe around in different random directions. This scattered approach is not letting them devote enough resources to actually finish anything.. and the projects that do finish, end up taking so long that the public looses interest.
For instance, if NASA took on a task similar to putting a man on the moon. Say.. putting a man on mars.. or putting a base on the moon. Pick one, and dedicate all their research towards it. I think something like this would excite the public more, and perhaps even get more funding. The public isn't as impressed when NASA says "Oh we've been prodding around at these 20 different technologies that may one day be feasible and we could one day use but they are atleast 20 years away from being usable." But if NASA said "we have accomplished 4 of the 25 goals we have set for putting a base on the moon, we are working on 5 more goals and we are hoping to have them done by the end of this year. If everything goes as planned we should have a base on the moon in 10 more years, construction could start as soon as 3 years from now"
Now THAT sounds exciting!
Re:Sometimes I wonder if NASA is doing it right (Score:1)
First, it might be harder to distribute personell that way. The specialties might be different for each project. If you have a little bit of everything going (such as both manned and robot missions), then you can more easily keep a variety of skills around.
Second, I think a bigger problem is lawmakers: they cancel and then uncancel missions back and forth, up the funding, then down it again, etc. The
Re:Sometimes I wonder if NASA is doing it right (Score:2)
Re:Sometimes I wonder if NASA is doing it right (Score:2)
Re:Sometimes I wonder if NASA is doing it right (Score:2)
Especially if you consider how little money they get
NASA got 16.2 billion dollars for 2005. Give me 16.2 billion dollars and I'll get us up to 12 escape velocity launches a day, with beer and pizza money left over. Watch this space, I submitted a story about it lately, and to my surprise it wasn't rejected out of hand, but is in the pending queue...
This is Slashdot (Score:1)
Here is a plan. (Score:3, Insightful)
Note: this is a rough dr
Re:Here is a plan. (Score:2)
Re:Here is a plan. (Score:2)
I was reading about a few things lately, like the coming peak oil and the fact that we do not have enough resource on earth to support the way we live. So I figured, fuck earth. Let's go.
Yes, because outer space is known for its wealth of usable, reachable resources...
Re:Here is a plan. (Score:1)
Aren't you worried about drug research? What if AIDS kills us all before we reach step III?
This scheme might work if it is accepted at a global scale, but that will not happen, because our world is a world of contrasts. I believe your plan might become reality if the whole planet becomes a single nation. In that case space explorati
Re:Here is a plan. (Score:2)
Advanced topics might include res
Re:Sometimes I wonder if NASA is doing it right (Score:2)
A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon we're talking about actual money. We should just redirect the money to direct research grants in fields which are useful (spend a billion dollars to develop a solar sail, get another method for getting an expensive vehicle from one point where i
Re:Sometimes I wonder if NASA is doing it right (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Sometimes I wonder if NASA is doing it right (Score:2)
NASA is great at doing advanced research and basic tehnologies. That's their core competency, and they should focus on that, the stuff that nobody would ever try to do because there's no obvious profit to be made.
Anything that's more routine and potentially profitable should be outsourced either to another division inside the government (a space corps?) or, better, to an external company. Government agencies are notorious for being hams
Re:Sometimes I wonder if NASA is doing it right (Score:1)
Why bother with sails... (Score:1)
Nonphysical Solar Sails Dismissed? (Score:3, Interesting)
Neil Murphy Dismisses the notion on a nonphyiscal solar sair right off hand. "We use aluminized plastics and nanotubes. You really do have to have a physical sail. Magnetic fields interact, but not in the same way." What about Robert?
Magnetic sails proposed by Robert Zubrin [nasa.gov] can be seen in the middle of this NASA page. So is it or is it not feasible?
Perhaps Mr Murphy has time invested in physical sail research...
Me? I just wanna be a fry cook on Venus.
Re:Nonphysical Solar Sails Dismissed? (Score:2, Interesting)
Oops, it was actually Winglee who suggests injecting plasma into a more modest magnetic field in response to the critique of Zubrin's ten kilometer coil.
"What we're proposing to do is create a magnetic bubble to deflect the solar wind," Winglee explained
Is this feasible? Its 5 something, time to go home.
interesting physics (Score:5, Interesting)
Books about Solar Sails (Score:1, Informative)
Penguin Books, 1990. ISBN: 0-451-45002-7
A collection of essays and short stories about solar sails. This book was part of a fund-raising effort for the World Space Foundation....
Locus describes this as:
Project Solar Sail ed. Arthur C. Clarke (NAL/Roc 0-451-45002-7, Apr '90 [Mar '90], $4.50, 246pp, pb); Anthology of seven stories, three originals, featuring
Black sails or mirrorred sails? (Score:1)
Has this been settled?
The problem was, the conservation of momentum equations most commonly used as a short cut in QM were very simplified compared to the classical step by step derivation, and were thus being incorrectly applied...
So what is the best deal? Black sail or white sail or mirrorred sail on t
Re:Black sails or mirrorred sails? (Score:1, Informative)
If it ever flies. (Score:1)
The first mission:
Mission name: ST9 (Space Tech 9)
Tentative launch date: 2010-2011
Then we have more:
Mission name: Heliostorm
Tentative launch date: 2016-2020
Mission name: SPI (Solar Polar Imager)
Tentative launch daMission name: Interstellar Probe
Tentative launch date: 2031-2035
These are science. As we all know, the US gubmint don't hold with that science stuff. And does anyone out there believe that NASA have any clue what they'll be doin
solar sails for terraforming venus (Score:2)
Re:solar sails for terraforming venus (Score:1)
Re:solar sails for terraforming venus (Score:1)
Re:solar sails for terraforming venus (Score:2)
Can a Sail work ??? (Score:1)
Photons have no mass, so they cann't push anyting.
If it could the sail would heat up from the impact of photons.
Still a photon has no mass so i doubt if it could transfer it's momentum to another object. Even heat energy would radiate away with no force resulting from it, just cooling.
So then perhaps they could make them like a mirror, so incomming photons bounce back. Since a photon travels always with same speed, it couldn
Re:Can a Sail work ??? (Score:1)
In special relativity, you don't need to have a mass to have momentum. A photon's momentum is h*nu/c, where nu is the frequency of the photon, h is Planck's constant and c is the speed of light.
Mass is merely a specialized expression of energy. (Score:2)
We're only interested in using the energy present in the photons; converting it from kinetic (photon moving at c along a specific path) to kinetic (sail being "pushed" as it alters the vector the aformentioned photon was initially on).
We don't need any mass; we just want the energy. BTW, you might remember an experiment involving the bending of starlight by our Sun during a total eclipse? The stars' apparent position was displaced by somet
Years of disappointment... (Score:2)
Sail enthusiasts have faced continued disappointment [babilim.co.uk] from the early days; with the failure of Znamya, to the more recent failure of the Cosmos-1 spacecraft [babilim.co.uk]. Lets hope NASA has more luck than everyone else, despite the recently announced budget cuts for science funding in favour of the manned programme.
Al.
Re:Years of disappointment... (Score:1)
Re:Years of disappointment... (Score:2)
Okay, fair point. I actually do point that out [ex.ac.uk] elsewhere, I guess I summarised a bit too far...
Al.change "missions" to "mission" (Score:2)
I can't beleive it! (Score:1)
Oh my goodness, the slashdot editors actually revealed the words for a sighted acronym. Unprecedented!
JPL (and other) solar sail (Score:1)
Re:Solar sails myth (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Solar sails myth (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Solar sails myth (Score:3, Informative)
You would be correct if, when you looked outside, the sky were uniformly grey - there would be equal amounts of light of all colors coming from all directions, resulting in zero net solar pressure.
Ho
Re:Solar sails myth (Score:1)
I gathered some concept of a spinning wheel of solar sail
Re:Solar sails myth (Score:3, Informative)
Solar sail craft are already in orbit, around the Earth or Sun. They don't fly directly toward or away from the sun; instead, the sail can be angled to push the craft's orbit higher or lower, or shift from a terrestrial orbit to a solar one.
It's not too far removed in principle from how sailing ships can sail into the wind.
Re:Solar sails myth (Score:2)
Re:Solar sails myth (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Solar sails myth (Score:2)
Re:Solar sails myth (Score:1)
Olber's Paradox [wikipedia.org] sums it up. If the sky is uniform then all gas clouds and all distances will be full of star light, right? Hubble had to come along and say the Universe was expanding and redshifting the light into the cosmic background.
Re:Solar sails myth (Score:1)
It really is a pity these "amatuer" scie
Re:Solar sails myth (Score:2)
Perhaps you are familiar with the inverse square law? The amount of energy available from a star is inversely proportional to the square of your distance from the star. The distance from the sun is 1AU - approximately 500 light seconds. The distance to the nearest other star is 4.3 light years. The amount
Re:Grrrrr... off comment but.... (Score:1)
My reasoning for using the "t" word was I wanted to differentiate between talking about solar sails in a science context versus the technology. That is, the former would focus more on motion physics, theory and research issues, and the latter would be more nuts-and-bolts, physical de
Re:Grrrrr... off comment but.... (Score:2)
To indicate they are talking about the underlying technology.
Solar Sail: the thing
Solar Sail Technology: The machinery, engineering, application of science, etc, involved in creating the thing
Solar Sail Science: Natural laws governing and/or applicable to the thing