Would You Take A Paycut for More Interesting Work? 577
HellsAngel asks: "I work in a business consulting firm. While the pay and the benefits are great, the work itself is mundane and boring, consisting of Excel, Access, and VBA macros. Recently, I got a job offer to move to a startup doing OS development and Systems and Network programming, however it would involve a paycut. Would you leave an otherwise perfect job to work on something more interesting?"
"Today, I work as an IT Analyst for a multinational firm doing business consulting. From the looks of it, I've got the perfect job: high pay, extravagant benefits and bonuses, flexi-time, can telecommute whenever possible, and best of all the coworkers are great and have truly become my friends, even the boss.
However, the work I actually do seems to be a waste of my CS education. My current project right now involves hooking up Excel and Access with a little VBA and some macros. The other day I was asked to export a Lotus Notes database into an Excel file and format it. The most programming-intensive project that I've done here was an ASP.NET webapp, for the company intranet.
Am I selling out by continuing to work in my current firm? Should I take the pay-cut to work at a startup where I can make more use of my talents? I'm a recent grad with no loans or credit cards to pay, so I have a low cost of living aside from a girlfriend. Which would you prefer: fun at work, or fun outside of work?"
academia (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:That's easy. (Score:4, Interesting)
And the jobs I liked happend to pay less than the others, so even though I was makiing less money my life as a whole was way better. I had more fun when I wasn't working and when I was at work I didn't feel like I was wasting my time at some futile activity just to go home and rot on the couch.
Re:Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr (Score:5, Interesting)
I manage a small office and every so often, I hear this exact same thing.
I know how to manage -- I hire folks that are smarter than me for a reason -- because if I wanted to do the job myself, I'd have hired someone stupider.
Beyond that, managers have to know skill sets outside of just your own. I can admit I'm not the best coder out there, and I'm not really upset by it. So long as I can create ideas and others can realize them, I'm in good shape. Coming from both sides of the equation, I'd rather be a manger or have a manager that could admit he didn't know more than me and let me do my job -- I've never micromanaged my employees and I expect the same in return.
Personally, I think the folks 'under' me are actually more important in the scheme of things -- but without someone to guide them nothing would get done.
Posted anonymously because I don't want those nerds to get a big ego if they read this. Or more importantly, ask for raises.
Re:Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm just a peon, by anyone's standards, but I would feel dispirited if someone were promoted past me because they couldn't function at the lower level. I've seen it several times (well, a couple times, but I haven't been in the corp. world long) where the clueless employee is promoted because mgmt doesn't want to risk taking the best guys off the lower-rung jobs. On the other hand, the best guys, the geeks, enjoy their line of work and would probably feel less satisfaction at the mgmt level. So they're stuck at a lower pay level, and like the parent suggests, probably would love to have something of a mentor working above them... it would give them some hope of advancement, careerwise.
On a side note, if you're managing geeks, or technical specialists of some kind, its probably best to avoid any micro-management simply because you don't know what you're talking about. I like seeing my manager as an ally in my career, not someone I have to slip past to get anything done. It's a complementary relationship, not a strict heirarchy. She knows much that I don't, and that goes both ways.
Enough of my soapbox.
Re:"me too" (Score:4, Interesting)
Depends on the type of manager. (Score:3, Interesting)
A general business manager should not know more than his staff as they are the ones who should be carrying out the tasks and be able to make the technical decisions themselves.
A conflict between these two is what cost me my last job. I was required to be a business manager by the law firm's new CFO but knew far more technology than my staff. The small size of my team relative to the projects we were undertaking and the demands of the firm support staff and other managers created a situation where I had to be more hands-on than the CFO wanted. In the end I was replaced by a non-technical manager with no warning whatsoever.
I'm filling time doing the private consulting gig but would rather be in full-time project management.
Work for your sense of self (Score:5, Interesting)
I watched Groundhog Day recently. It's nice that Bill Murray learned to love and to play the piano, but I probably would've spent the first million years in the public library. If they'd had the internet then, maybe the first billion years.
Anyway, I digress. You don't have a billion years, you have three score and ten, plus or minus two score. For a huge chunk of that time, say forty hours a week for several decades, you're at work.
Think about what kind of life you want to have. If it's a life filled with a lot of stuff, maybe you belong at a job where you can buy it all. If it's a life where you do what you want after age 40 or 50, maybe you belong at a job where you can save up the millions of dollars necessary. But if it's a life where you do meaningful work, maybe you need to leave.
The meaning of work is intertwined with the meaning of life. I can't tell you what the meaning of your life is. Even if I knew, you wouldn't listen; at some level, you have to discover it for yourself. 40 hours a week is more than a third of your waking life, so figure out if you need your work to mean anything to you.
Also consider that your work is reshaping your personality. I got back to graduate CS after several years of work that was often drudgery, managed by someone else, with my work time accountable to the nearest six minutes. Experiences like that wear away at you; the thousand tasks you do will recreate your mind. Figure out if they're changing you in a direction you like.
Paul Graham wrote a good essay [paulgraham.com] about work recently.
Re:Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr (Score:4, Interesting)
I had no experience with management, but knew that there were people out there that could do a better job at web development than I could. So, I got the chance to hire some more people for my web dev group and hired super people that knew way more than I did. It ended up workout out great! I was honest about my skill level and let my people know that their expertice and creativity was always appreciated.
I view myself as working for my employees instead of them working for me. I ask on a constant basis if they need anything or if there is anything I can do to help them complete their task. By them doing a great job, I do a great job, and that shoots right up the ladder.
I also know that it helps to be passionate about what you do. I get excited when I think about web development and what it could do for the company and I see that it infects my team. They get excited about it too. They want to learn more and advance and make the corporate intranet easier to use and a pleasant experience for our users.
Family. Hobby. Job. (Score:3, Interesting)
My job is actually too stimulating at the moment. I'd take a small pay cut to find a less interesting one.
TW
Re:Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr (Score:2, Interesting)
1) Manager - as in budget/resource/time management, project management
2) Mentor - as in someone who guides, helps you find your way
3) Teacher - someone who teaches actual information
4) Facilitator - as in getting their team to work effectively
1+4 dont need more knowledge or intelligence than their underlings.
2+3 you would need at least as much expertise.
A good manager would have all 4 qualities, but obviously its hard to find someone who can do all 4, but that person is definately worth leaving a company or taking a paycut to work for. Incidentally, in most surveys of why people leave work, it is because of an incompetent manager. I can't cite a source, but it should be easy to google.
The OP should consider not just interesting work, but all the factors that can make him or her happier:
Interesting work
Adequate recognition
Pay
benefits/perks
Opportunities for growth - not just raises and promotions, but professional growth
flexible work arrangements
I'm probably missing some, but the OP should take a hard look at ALL the things that contribute to satisfaction on the job, prioritize and go from there.
How about the other way around? (Score:2, Interesting)
I second this. (Score:3, Interesting)
Also, don't underestimate the possiblity of early retirement. My parents retired before sixty and they have never been happier in their whole lives. I know that for young people it seems ideal to have all your fun when you're young. But go figure how much more fun you can have when the fun never actually has to stop, because you've worked it out so that you never have to have a job again.
Re:Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr (Score:1, Interesting)
He always coded the most difficult pieces of our projects. When two team members were struggling to get their pieces to work together, he would help them get it working. He was very good technically. He worked on the hardest stuff, and he worked the hardest on the team. When he told me that what I was doing would not work in the context of our team's project I listened. Everybody listened. I would often disagree with the approach of other team members, but I was more pursuaded if he sided with them. Not because he was my manager. Because he had been up to his elbows in my code and in their code, and had the best understanding of the big picture and how to put it all together.
The manager above him needed to be able to talk tech with our team and talk spin with the marketing guys. He had to be willing and able to roll up his sleeves in both camps. He had to be able to win my manager's trust the same way my manager won my trust and respect.
Now I understand that a CEO can't practically be an expert in every aspect of a company that has achieved any real size and complexity. But managers at all levels should make themselves the servants of the team they manage. They should be able to fill assignments given to them by any of their team members. When they prove that they are that kind of an asset, they win the leadership position in the team.
Startups frequently enjoy that kind of leadership. The founders have proven that they had the technical ability to get things off the ground along with the business and marketing acumen to get things as far as they are. Many of the employees are in awe of the founders because they have been able to achieve the present company. They are willing to be guided by the founders because the founders have a proven track record of more than just managing. It's hard not to respect the person that had the original ideas and did the original labor that is now providing your paycheck. When that person drops buy to see if they can help out in any way, you're going to listen to their "guidance."
Re:Get Together (Score:5, Interesting)
I couldn't agree more, but it's always amazing to me how many people see their job as a major part of their worth as a human being. If they have a bad day at work, they go home and kick around the family a while, get drunk or drugged up, or otherwise compound the effect of a single bad day. Of course, it's hard not to see things like this, because they're practically drilled into you from a young age. What your dad did for a living tends to set the stage for how you grow up, in the sense that whatever job he had you tend to want to at least meet that level of success for yourself. If you don't, you're a "failure".
Somehow, a few of us manage to break that cycle, and realize a job for what it is, a way of earning enough to create a means of doing the things we really enjoy, whether it's traveling around the world, feeding a hobby, etc. Without having some sort of goal like that you're simply chasing rainbows, because there will always be someone who makes a little more, has a little more interesting job, a little less stress, etc.
Of course, the saddest situation is when you see someone whose job has become their life, and this is common whether you're working at a fortune 500 office complex, or tiny machine shop. We've all worked with that one person who had no life outside of work, whose only hobbies were gossiping about coworkers and trying to stir up fights to entertain themselves. These are the folks that get fired and show up the next day with a shotgun. If you're falling into this category, get the heck out!
You should enjoy work, and find it stimulating on some level, though. Perhaps not your duties (I'd be worried about the janitor that looks forward to cleaning the bathrooms), but some aspect of your job that you deal with on a regular basis, maybe working with your coworkers, customers, or simply (like myself) watching company dynamics (watching how various parts of the company interact, for better or worse) in action. You should also make enough to pay the bills, spend on whatever hobbies you have, and put away for later. Lastly, you should have a position that allows you to spend time with your friends and family, and on your hobbies.
If you can do all three, the dollar amount is kind of like a high score on a video game. Cool to have, but not all that important in the long run.
Re:"me too" (Score:2, Interesting)
This man has not only said 'take the fun job!' but has actually done it and proven that it works.
I'm not saying there's nothing funny about the post, but I find it quite an important post on the topic at hand.
Re:Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr (Score:3, Interesting)
If you mean you would like a manager that is skilled in the tools and programming languages that you use, I disagree. My current boss and his superior are both good managers. They prioritize items, they help plan projects and provide reasonable time estimates, and they're willing to spend the required money to get the tools, software, and other items we need to get the job done. My boss has never programmed anything, and his boss hasn't done any software development in 15 years.
My last boss was, hands down, the best software developer out of the 10 developers at the company. He would modify the Linux kernel for different hardware, write a display driver for Windows XP on another device, create network tools, anything. However, getting detailed project specifications out of him was harder than squeezing blood from a stone and he would never, ever sit down and take part in project planning. You would get a one page feature description out of him, and the next time you had any input would be harsh criticism on the failings of the finished version. More importantly, you had to fight like crazy to get funds for anything out of him. The amount of time we spent waiting in line - literally - for a turn to use a particular piece of hardware was absurd. This genius software developer probably wasted $75,000 a year in salary for unproductive employees for each of the four years I was there because he was too cheap to spend $15,000 on two extra servers and a handful of spare hardware items.
Re:Work to live (Score:4, Interesting)
I couldn't agree more.
We had a situation in our home not too long ago that shines as an example. My wife was a product manager at a firm with international presence (can't go into more detail, sorry). She was thrown on airplanes to many far-flung places -- that's not a perq; business travels sucks -- during and after her pursuit of a part-time MBA at a top-notch program. While this was going on, she was also using her spare time to come up with business plans for said firm. Granted, it helped that she needed one for a class, but she poured a lot of effort into them for the sake of future use.
The lovely little firm used her plans, gave her no credit for them, threw her on more planes, trashed her in a performance review, never publicly acknowleged her MBA (despite a very nice ad taken out by the university in the Wall Street Journal that printed the company's name as well as hers), and was forced to sit through a team event where the laziest sacks of shit received accolades while her name went unmentioned.
(Our evenings at home, with her black moods at the time, were a real treat too. Being the supportive spouse was getting exhausting as well.)
Her manager's only advice to her during all of this? Quoting from memory: "We're here to collect paychecks, make money, and retire. That's it." What a nice motivational career statement: Go Along to Get Along, For We Are Waiting Around to Die.
I should also add that the former employer loved to dole out huge bonuses (near 20% of salary) in lieu of having a non-dysfunctional culture.
My point? Without power and satisfaction, the money means next to nothing. My wife left the firm. We left a lot of money on the table because we valued her sanity more. She now works for a group that thinks she's Wonder Woman, just because she's used to working very hard with a lot less support than she's getting today. That which does not kill you etc., I suppose.
I managed to get the MBA from the same school as well, and I understand the fineries of organizational behavior and business etiquette. Having said that, I'd still punch her ex-manager in the face if I saw him on the street.
Re:"me too" (Score:4, Interesting)
I won't compare it to other tough jobs, but it is very stressful. A 12 hour work day is standard when flying due to 12 hour off-duty rest requirements prior to the next flight (leaving 12 hours to work, right?) and since we're so macho, anyone griping about the work is laughed at so the work pretty much builds to completely fill our day. It's not uncommon to arrive at work at 0400 in the morning and go home at 8 pm that night if you're not flying the next day, otherwise you leave work 12 hours before you have to be at work the next day.
Add on the death/destruction nature of the work, having close friends of yours get splattered from hitting the ground at 600 knots following as little as 4 seconds of inattention, 4 or more months away from home every year, moving your family to the other side of the world every 2 or 3 years, and the stress/strain adds up.
On top of that, the fact that a fighter pilot is the end result of a series of selection processes means that everyone we work with has been at the top of almost every competitive endeavor they've ever tried in their entire life. A quick example, is my career. And I'm not even all that good...
These numbers are by memory, so some of them may be a bit off. But the order of magnitude will be correct...
The year I went to the USAF Academy, there were around 250,000 inquiries. Of those, there were around 50,000 people who met the minimum entrance requirements. Of those, 10,000 were highly qualified. Of those, approx 1,600 were accepted. By the time I graduated, fully 1/3 of my class had quit or washed out. Of the 1000 graduates in my class, approx 800 were medically qualified for pilot training, but due to post-cold war drawdowns, there were only 225 pilot training slots. So just in getting my pilot training slot, I was one of 225 selected from a pool of over 350,000 potential applicants.
At pilot training, my class had 32 students. Of those 32, only 6 went to the fighter/bomber track. Of those 6, only 4 got fighters.
Not trying to beat my chest, but I'm trying to get across the point that not only is uncompromising drive for excellence and actual job competence a requirement, everyone else I work with has these same values and to some degree, if we want to get promoted then we must somehow stand out from our peers. That's easier for some people than others, and frankly sometimes it seems like I struggle just to keep up with everyone else just because everyone else is so damn good.
I won't dig too deep into the remaining sources of stress, except to mention that our primary job, that of being a fighter pilot, is extremely difficult and complex. Technology, tactics, and threats are constantly changing and failing to keep up results in getting killed, getting your wingman killed, not hitting your target or worse, killing the wrong people when employing weapons. I fully understand that the guy changing the oil in my car may have just as much pride in his job as anyone else, but nobody's going to get killed if he can't recite the molecular composition of every major brand of oil on the market or describe in detail the construction methods used to make an oil filter. You can bet that (as one small example) needing to memorize the tactical capabilities and limitations of around 100 enemy weapons systems is going to be a source of stress.
A quick note about medical issues - I estimate up to 20% of pilots I've flown with have serious but undiagnosed back injuries. They are undiagnosed because as soon as you tell the doc about them, you're grounded. I flew on a herniated L5-S1 disc for 6 years before the pain crippled me and I had to go to the doc to get it fixed. I
Making Changes (Score:3, Interesting)
The money is about 25% of what I used to get paid.....but the work is better.
Re: Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr (Score:3, Interesting)
I think that's the important thing; the problem isn't with managers who have less technical knowledge than their people, but with managers who don't realise that. Or who don't think that matters.
Back on topic, 'interesting work' was one of my main criteria when doing my last round of interviewing. But you've no idea how hard it is to explain 'interesting work' to recruiters or agencies! The most common reaction was that if I wanted to learn stuff and work with smart people, I should become a professor, and that if I wanted to be creative and take pride in my work, I should become an artist... :(
Re:"me too" - book recommendation (Score:3, Interesting)
I will say that a flight-sim gamer would do a lot better in a real aircraft than someone with no experience at all. But a real life fighter pilot is going to romp all over a gaming "ace" simply due to the depth of real life considerations that he's learned to deal with, such as the demanding physical environment. As with anything, some people are "naturals" and for these few people, flightsims are just another dynamic experience that will transfer to anything they do, from flying to playing golf. But for most people, there is no substitute for actual flight time.
The best book I can think of for a gaming simmer is Robert Shaw's "Figher Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering". I think it's still in limited print, otherwise you should be able to easily find a used copy on Amazon or wherever. It's a bit dated where it comes to modern jet combat, but if you can handle the level of detail it's probably the best introduction to aerial combat you'll find anywhere outside of a secure military location. The list of sources is worth just as much as the book itself, and if I recall correctly (I read Shaw's book at around age 14 in high school) you could probably find enough reading material referenced in this one book to keep you busy for a couple of years.
If you want to get really "good at flight sims", check out Aces High 2 at http://www.hitechcreations.com/ [hitechcreations.com] You won't find a better place to improve flightsim skills against real opponents than in the AH arenas. Yea there's a monthly fee to use the full arenas, but their head 2 head arenas and software are free if you just want to check it out without subscribing.