Would You Take A Paycut for More Interesting Work? 577
HellsAngel asks: "I work in a business consulting firm. While the pay and the benefits are great, the work itself is mundane and boring, consisting of Excel, Access, and VBA macros. Recently, I got a job offer to move to a startup doing OS development and Systems and Network programming, however it would involve a paycut. Would you leave an otherwise perfect job to work on something more interesting?"
"Today, I work as an IT Analyst for a multinational firm doing business consulting. From the looks of it, I've got the perfect job: high pay, extravagant benefits and bonuses, flexi-time, can telecommute whenever possible, and best of all the coworkers are great and have truly become my friends, even the boss.
However, the work I actually do seems to be a waste of my CS education. My current project right now involves hooking up Excel and Access with a little VBA and some macros. The other day I was asked to export a Lotus Notes database into an Excel file and format it. The most programming-intensive project that I've done here was an ASP.NET webapp, for the company intranet.
Am I selling out by continuing to work in my current firm? Should I take the pay-cut to work at a startup where I can make more use of my talents? I'm a recent grad with no loans or credit cards to pay, so I have a low cost of living aside from a girlfriend. Which would you prefer: fun at work, or fun outside of work?"
Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr (Score:5, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Get Together (Score:5, Insightful)
I find that this is a common greener-grass syndrome where one doesn't realize how lucky one is, however this is a good syndrome because that is what got us human-beings to where we are today. Imagine what would the world be if we didn't invent TV and we had to sit on an empty couch all day?
My advice is to try out some part-time works that utilize your talents, this will give you time to understand what your talents and interests are without risking what you have right now.
Not Perfect (Score:5, Insightful)
Work to live (Score:5, Insightful)
Now that that is over I will look for something else interesting. I am married and have a stay at home wife and daughter and I will still look for something more interesting or fun to do, life should be more than just paying the bills and being bored.
The more interesting question.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Money isn't everything.. But it IS freedom..
That's easy. (Score:3, Insightful)
I thought so.
If the job had potential for advancement (Score:2, Insightful)
You may be happier at the new position, and gain valuable experience to further your carrer. But it would not be optimal to start a new position where it takes two years to get back to your current wage if your not learning valuable skills to help your earning potential.
You only live once (Score:5, Insightful)
That depends on one thing... (Score:2, Insightful)
Of course, you shouldn't let money be the only issue, but it still should be a major factor depending on where your life is headed. Whatever you do, try not to become one of those mini-van driving soccer dads who loathe going to work every day.
Probably not (Score:5, Insightful)
From the looks of it, I've got the perfect job: high pay, extravagant benefits and bonuses, flexi-time, can telecommute whenever possible, and best of all the coworkers are great and have truly become my friends, even the boss.
Most people would kill for job conditions like those. The excellence of your coworkers and boss in particular makes me inclined to say that you should stay. If you feel your CS degree is wasted, work on open source projects or try to bring open source into your organization. There are a myriad of ways to apply your knowledge without necessarily quitting your job. The dissatisfaction you experience may not be alleviated in your new job and if your boss and/or coworkers are worse, you'll regret the switch.
Re:Less pay, more stimulation (Score:5, Insightful)
If you've got a good salary, and good benefits, stay where you are while you search for an opportunity that can provide you with the kind of environment that you're after without having to sacrifice your current standard of living.
It's not 2002 anymore... You can have a job that you like, and get paid well for it.
A few thoughts (Score:2, Insightful)
It's important to look at the non-work elements too. For example, I would imagine that your current job is so easy you have lots of free time to spend that big salary. A start up will pay less and leave you with way less time free.
Also, don't under-estimate the importance of your work environment. If your co-workers are fun to work with and the job isn't very hard, you've got a pretty good thing going. My recommendation would be to keeping your self challenged with projects on the side.
Another thing to consider is to talk to your boss about it. Say that you'd like to take on some more challenging tasks. Even better, look for ways to improve the business processes through software develop, and then request permission to implement them (in addition to your normal work, of course). It's usually worth trying to fix your current situation before thinking about leaving.
Run the numbers (Score:5, Insightful)
But:
The fact that it's a startup complicates things. Startups can fail at any time, and one day you may wake up and find yourself on the street. You need to do your homework and take a very close look at the startup: are they just a dot-bomb wannabe, or do they have a solid business plan, a marketable product, and a firm roadplan? The answers to these questions will guide you to making the call here.
Your other alternative is to find the time in your cushy job and make it interesting. If it's really such a bore you should have plenty of time to spend on educating yourself. Find something you want to learn, some skill, and use your free time to study it. If it's even barely relevant to your current line of work you are on solid ground to justify using your free time, on the clock, on this. No employer -- especially the solid company you claim to be working for -- would object to their employees learning and picking up related skills that might be relevant to their employment; they should even encourage it.
Give it a time limit (Score:5, Insightful)
Finally, count on the fact that this company will fail (most do). What back-up plan do you have? If you quit your current job, make sure that you keep your foot in it( i.e. leave on a very good note). For the last 5 years, the economy has been so-so, with a enormously rising deficit, and almost certain that the deal with Iran is about to blow up. When it happens, the price of gas will probably shoot to 3-3.5/gal. That means that the economy will cut back. i.e., there is likely to be at least a softening in the economy. If the economy softens, what happens to the company? Is its product dependant on a growing economy.
Now, with all that, consider going. If you are a true CS, then the current job will guarentee you no future. Why would I hire you if you have shown no initiative. At the very least, if you stay with it, consider doing some OSS work. Since you do Windows, you can do that work in Windows as well. But you need something that shows that you are capable.
Good Luck.
Would I take a cut? In a heartbeat... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:This has been discussed many times... (Score:5, Insightful)
Let me put it a better way. Why bother defining yourself by your job?
Show up at 8. Leave at 5. Every day. Give yourself a good life outside the office. Take up hobbies in your free time, which you'll have now and won't at the startup. Bank some money - if you can live off half your salary, that's a great cushion for the future when you do get the entreprenurial bug (or will let you retire surprisingly early if you don't).
But, in all seriousness, don't try to get everything you want out of life from your job. Take all of your vacation time every year. Insist on comp time and raises, too. Then go to Tahiti. Or train for marathons. Or play around with some cool scratch-an-itch software in your spare time (just don't spend it all in front of a monitor). Hang out with friends. Invest in yourself.
Don't let yourself become a "developer." You are a person. You have a job. The two are, should be, and can be seperate.
Re:Work to live (Score:2, Insightful)
Finding a balance and learn to avoid the "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" syndrome.
Re:The more interesting question.. (Score:1, Insightful)
but hey, if you win the lottery, let me know
What are your goals in life? (Score:5, Insightful)
However, if you are still relatively unattached, go for your dreams and what makes you happy at work. If you enjoy what you do, you will be more likely in the long run to find a job that does pay well and is fun at the same time. Consider the startup job to be a stepping stone along the way. Rather than let your skills get rusty and find yourself losing your edge later, keep them sharp and keep your motivation and enthusiasm up.
If you are unhappy with your current job but are still averse to the riskiness of a startup, don't take this opportunity but go ahead and look around for other jobs. There may still be a better place for you that doesn't have as much risk or as much of a pay cut. The economy is doing fairly well so don't be timid!
One more note. I know this is Slashdot and I also know the industry we are in, so the following advice may seem out of place. Nevertheless, here goes. Even in a job that you enjoy, try not to let it totally consume your life. There is life beyond work. I advise you to retain enough time for yourself to be able to strike up and nurture relationships with other people. If you have a family, spend time with them. If you are single, don't hesitate too long to find that special someone! The trend in our society is toward marrying and starting a family in your 30s or even later. First of all, that makes it harder to get used to each other when you do find someone. Second, it increases the risk of unhealthy children (birth defects, etc.). Third, despite the stereotypes, family life really is a lot more fun and enjoyable than the single life-- study after study claims this, and my own experience confirms it. When you look back on your life, will it matter more that you had a stellar, enjoyable career, or that you had a good family life and have relatives around you in your old age?
Again, I guess it really does boil down to what your goals are in life. They're not the same for everyone, but I do recommend sitting down and thinking honestly about your own goals and making sure they are the right ones for you-- that you aren't just following whatever everyone else is doing because you don't have your own clear path in mind.
I'd do it. (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd like you to ask yourself this question: "Do I see myself doing this for the next 20 years?" Note that I didn't say '... in the next 20 years', but 'during the next 20 years'. Sometimes a boring job really gets to your nerves, and as marriage, when it gets boring, you tend to stop liking it and then it goes all downhill.
Fortunately, jobs aren't marriages, and you can quit whenever you decide. So, this seems to be the moment of your decision. Plus, when you get the other job experience, later you'll be able to ask for a raise
I'd say go for it, I'm sure you won't regret the decision. And if you do regret it, at least you'll have gained the good experiences of the new job - something you can't gain in the current one, don't you think?
Re:Yes... (Score:3, Insightful)
The mortgage, car loan+insurance, electric bill, groceries, etc don't pay themselves. I would enjoy spending my time running my own business. But I'm not in a position to quit my day job right now and expect the lights to be on for very long.
That being said, this is America - you can do and be nearly anything you want if you're willing to work at it. You might have to get a McJob to pay the rent if you want to build robots in your garage (HP, Atari?), but no one can force you to work for corp this or that. In your case, if robotics is a field that interests you, hunt for and complete your education and then maybe a job in the industrial sector (heavy machinery, vehicle production, other factory-type settings) working on their equipment. You might not be building "something cool" for a while, but the experience will be invaluable.
Just a few thoughts from someone who should have studied harder in school...
Re:Probably not (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Not Perfect (Score:5, Insightful)
The goal is fun/stimulation, no? (Score:3, Insightful)
On the other hand, if you can get paid less and have fun AT WORK, you're MUCH better off. Ask yourself this - How much would you pay for 40 hours a week of fun?
If the difference between your current job and the more interesting job is less than or equal to that amount, you might need a switch.
Re:Get Together (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Less pay, more stimulation (Score:5, Insightful)
Empower *yourself* to make *your* job more interesting. Take yourself (and the role you occupy) to the next level. Save your stonking salary in a bank account while your outgoings are low. If your current employers don't notice you and your new skills and your better ways of doing things - you've just got a lot of money in the bank and a lot of skills - the world is your oyster.
It really depends on the work and the manager (Score:5, Insightful)
Being an IT manager is not so different then being a project manager. Almost everything done is a project in some way or another, besides the normal daily admin tasks that don't generally fill the day. If you have an IT-illiterate boss that is capable of effectively running projects and trusting his "experts" (employees) it can work. Unfortunately, I've met very few effective project managers, so to balance it out, it helps to have a boss that knows the technology - even a little.
Re:Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr (Score:5, Insightful)
If you want to see an example of how poor management performance can negatively affect the output of a company, you only need look at the windows OS development unit.
MSFT has a lot of talented developers on their payroll but their middle management and project leaders appear to be completely incompetent in their managerial role. I would surmise that a lot of their problems with quality and delays are caused by managers not being able to manage expectations and not being able to de-scope unnecessary functionality while prioritizing core functionality.
A manager should hire the best people with skills outside of their own core competence. Managers who involve themselves in the day to day operations of their department are micro-managers which is something you do not want.
Re:Work to live (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Money
2. Power
3. Satisfaction
Having all three is a perfect job. Having two out of three is a damn good job. If you can only have one, at least try to enjoy it!
And if you don't have any, quit and try again.
Re:Get Together (Score:3, Insightful)
Then spend the rest of your life contributing to open source projects.
Re:Work to live (Score:4, Insightful)
To say that job satisfaction is above all others is self-serving and short-sighted. It may be true for a season, but there are many, many other motives for work. Think as a long-term investor: be aware of your motivations for accepting a position, and be continually aware of whether the original motives are no longer being served. Be also aware of the opportunities you forgo as you maintain your position. Be willing to change, and be ready to defend (to your own self) your decision.
No...Get more Education (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd settle for a manager who created a positive work environment. I've had a few and let me tell you, there's nothing quite like the feeling of actually looking forward to a good day at work, when you've spent years coming in at 7 or 8 and just trying to get through the day/week/month/year ...
There's more one way to do it (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Significant reduction in required hours with no cut in pay and benis or
2) A significant pay raise or
3) A moderate pay raise with an increase in vacation time.
They opted for #3. So at this time I am looking at 4 weeks annual vacation (very unusual for the US), plus holidays and some personal days. (BTW, they way I worked it out in terms of hourly pay over the year, the options worked out to be almost identical, no matter what option my employer chose).
So before bailing out, impact all your options. Maybe they can give you release time to take classes, more vacation time,working 35 hours a week etc. to keep you from being bored. A start up, speaking form experience, is a crap shoot. You could get rich. Or you could end up like me, burned out and deeply cynical, having ruined my health working insane hours for a startup and getting laid off anyway.
Re:Work to live (Score:3, Insightful)
According to internet sources this passage is: So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.
I have to say that i am probably the most anti-religious person that you will ever meet in your life but i do have to admit that this phrase (minus the G-d part), has a lot of merit to it. I used to think that the most important part of life was making money. That was until i took a job at about 20% less than i thought i should be making, and moved 2500 miles just because i thought the job was too perfect for me. Almost a year later i still love my job and love the work i do and i wouldn't trade it for twice the salary only to be miserable and regret getting up every day. My two cents: do what makes you happy and the rest will fall into place for you.
OSS can keep you occupied and you might find someb (Score:2, Insightful)
Working for others is almost never *fun* (Score:1, Insightful)
I'm not saying that you should or shouldn't quit your job, but I want you to realize that wishing for a job that is challenging, stable, and doesn't threaten your sanity, is a bit like wishing for a winning lottery ticket. Those jobs exist, but they're hard to come by.
Anyway, good luck!
Re:Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr (Score:2, Insightful)
I think that there are two entirely separate skill sets that you are trying to meld into one.
1. Ability to mentor less experienced programmers and offer design and analysis.
2. Ability to manage schedules and juggle multiple things at once.
IMO, the first requires someone who can focus and ignore distractions. The second requires someone who can multi-task. These are fundamentally different personalities. To my mind, a project *manager* needs to be the second kind of person. You seem to be saying that you want a project manager to be the first kind of person. I would call that person the project lead or project architect. If you're trying to manager your projects with an engineer, I suspect that you will have a lot of badly managed projects.
Also, the way to fix the problem of the better people being in lower paid jobs is simple: pay engineers more than managers. At my job, we have engineers at all levels, from people like me (at the bottom) to people reporting to the CEO. The engineers who report to the CEO get paid like vice presidents.
Re:You only live once (Score:4, Insightful)
The science [timesonline.co.uk] agrees with you. e.g. Lottery winners, one year after, are no happier than they were before. What makes people happy long term are experiences, not pay increases, and with a bit of lateral thinking and creativity experiences don't have to cost much.
---
Creating simple artificial scarcity with copyright and patents on things that can be copied billions of times at minimal cost is a fundamentally stupid economic idea.
Re:Get Together (Score:5, Insightful)
But work is a major part of your life. It takes about half of your waking hours. Your hobby can't come near it. Call me stupid, but not being satisfied during majority of your time is only marginally better than not being satisfied at all. Of course you don't need to go crazy over it, but it's pretty damn important, and being happy doing what you do there is also pretty damn important.
Re:What are your goals in life? (Score:3, Insightful)
So let me ask you something....what do you do if you don't have ANY time during the week because of work, and your weekend is dominated by rest and chores that piled up from the week? How do you have time for relationships....or more importantly, the energy!?
The simple answer lies in the section you quoted: "Retain enough time for yourself..." in other words, don't let your job take up all your time during the week. In order to have a life outside of work, if I were in a job that required more than 50 hours a week as the normal state of affairs, whether I liked the work or not, I would start looking elsewhere. Think about it. At 50 hours a week, that's at least 2 extra hours out of each and every workday! What could you do if you had that time back?
The tough reality, however, is that it is not always easy, especially in certain industries, to find an employer that respects your off-work time. In the tug-of-war between employers and employees, it seems the trend is toward employees losing more of their personal time. It fluctuates with the job market: the last few years have favored the employers, pushing expected working time on average up quite a bit. But the market is swinging back toward the employees; it's up to us to ask for what we want. If market forces fail and current trends continue, as much as I hate government intervention, there may eventually need to be some changes in workers' rights legislation.
As for weekends, chores, etc. I totally hear you. It is frustrating and there never seems to be enough time for the relationships and hobbies you want. The only thing I can say is you have to prioritize the important things in your life, and sacrifice some things that don't make the cut. It all comes back to... "what are your goals in life?" Is it to play every great video game that comes out? Is it to have an immaculate, sparkling clean model home? (Good luck with that one if you have a family... give it up now!) Is it to have meaningful relationships? I'm not here to say "you can do it all." It might sound trite but it's totally true that you can't have everything. Those people that seem to have it all together, often only appear to on the surface.
I'm discovering this every day in my life. I am struggling so hard to finish my master's degree and still keep a sane work and family life. I had to sacrifice some things I liked, such as video games. My house is not the newest, biggest, or cleanest house among those in my social circle. I have unfinished projects right and left. But I'm happy with the choices so far because I know what I want out of my life. And my family life, even though it is not all perfect, is still worth everything I've given up for it. Nothing beats the feeling of having a wife and two cute kids to come home to, and spending at least some time with them, even if they are a lot of work most of the rest of the time.
All of this is pretty common sense stuff, but it's amazing how many times we have to remind ourselves of it. Sit down and evaluate what you want in your life, and that will help you find the job that accomodates those goals.
Re:Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr (Score:2, Insightful)
I disagree. I work for a company which produces hardware. The Project Manager for whom I am working is usually a hardware engineer. Often a good hardware engineer. And one who can cut a fair bit of software - in these days of programmable devices, hardware looks a lot like software. But he has not got, and knows he has not got, my software skills. He cannot do my job, and would be wrong to try to.
In multi-discipliniary teams, it is unreasonable to expect anyone to be able to master the all the skills used in the project. Managers have to have only enough skill to judge outcomes, not to do the work themselves.
work with someone else, please (Score:5, Insightful)
I have a totally bleak outlook on work--to me, it's just an exchange of time/effort for money/benefits. But the strange thing is, I do the work. I work longer hours, more willingly, than some of those around me who claim to take "pride" in what they do, because I figure if I'm going to be a whore, at least I'll be a good whore and earn the man's money.
The only hard part is faking the orgasm, because the boss-people don't want to hear that you work there for money and benefits. So I occasionally have to act as if it was great, the best I've ever had, wow may I have another, just to appease the "love what you do!" Nazis. God how I hate them.
Re:Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr (Score:5, Insightful)
You neglected another key point of the real question -- which company is going to be around next year? 2 years? 5? 10?
What if the interesting job is with a company that has no perceived revenue stream, a dot-bomb tech-driven business plan (whether they label it 2.0 or not), and no real business plan other than a hope to be bought out? Are you really that "interested" in finding another job when they start bouncing paycheques on their way to bankruptcy?
Unfortunately that's the real world of most startups. Great talk, great perks, low pay, long hours, no business future, no budget.
Re:The more interesting question.. (Score:3, Insightful)
That isn't necessarily the case. I've worked for billionaires, including Doris Duke, and I never got the impression that they felt anything near the freedom I had. I had the freedom to drop everything, move to Hawai'i, and start a new life. Perhaps there is a financial sweet-spot under which a person worries about money constantly and over which a person worries about money constantly. Richard Kelley, chairman of Outrigger Hotels, once told me to watch my pennies and the dollars would take care of themselves. He was an excellent example of a man who, although rich (to the tune of 2.8 billion at the time), was a slave to his life, his work, and to money. Money!= freedom. If it did, no one would be more free than those with the most money and that is often not the case.
Re:Paycut for a more intelligent Mgr (Score:2, Insightful)
The above is the more important question. I would say "if you're young, single, and want good experience, take the dot-com job for the experience." It may work out - and you make oodles - but more you get the experience. But - realize you've got possibility of crazy hours; your job could evaporate; you need to realize that while Task A may be due tomorrow, that could be quickly trumped by Emergency B where you quickly have to learn skill Q (not saying that can't happen anywhere; but large multinationals tend to have schedules that stick because there are more people to spread tasks around, and the skillset tends to be in house...somewhere); etc.
If you're risk averse - and coming out of college I knew several people that were - than stay put. You'll be happier overall, even though you know the work isn't as challenging as it could be.
Now if you have a family and large bills the question changes. But you didn't give me that impression.
Re:Depends on the type of manager. (Score:3, Insightful)
Respectfully disagree. I'm an IT project manager with a strong technical background and a sprinkling of acronyms after my name. My job is to paint the big picture and keep the project on track - it's not my job to make technical decisions. It *is* my job to act on technical recommendations from qualified subordinates.
IT project managers should *not* make technical decisions unless required to resolve differences between subordinate teams - that's what subordinate managers are for.
The transition from geek to manager is a difficult one and I think many companies make a huge mistake hiring managers from the technical ranks - well, not without training them as managers first. Out of the box a good tech is almost *never* a good manager.
Re:work with someone else, please (Score:1, Insightful)
I'd take work with your collegues over someone who uses "misanthrope" as his nickname and apparently thinks work is the equivalent of faking an orgasm any freakin' time of the day.
Sheesh.
Re:Not Perfect (Score:2, Insightful)
Isn't this attitude the cause of most of the problems people have when they reach late twenties/early thirties? They spend the first decade out of high school 'having fun', parties, cars they can't afford, no concern of saving money...then they wake up and realize they are in massive credit card debt, have no money to buy a house, and realize they actually have to retire someday and will need money.
Re:Get Together (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh, really? You're awake about 128 hours a week. You're at work about 40, leaving almost 90 hours free. If you structure your life around the concept that your time is valuable (live close to where you work, not an hour's drive from anywhere, even if it means a smaller house (which means less expensive crap to stuff into it, etc)), that's quite a bit of time.
Unless you work on the weekends, of course. In which case, I recommend not doing that.