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The Internet

Poisoned Torrents Plague Mybittorrent 542

jambarama writes "One of the biggest problems with the Fasttrack network has been poisoning. This is the practice of sharing a file on a P2P network that looks like the real thing, but isn't. Bittorrent until recently has been largely immune to this. Now a new type of torrent is tricking bittorrent sites to rising to the top of the download lists." From the article: "According to Rex, about 50 new torrents have been released from what he calls "fake" trackers (~31 in total.) These trackers are seemingly part of an elaborate plot to infiltrate the BitTorrent community with intentionally corrupt files. These movie and film titles are specifically designed to report false information to trackers, thereby gaining artificially inflated popularity."
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Poisoned Torrents Plague Mybittorrent

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  • DMCA (Score:5, Interesting)

    by timmarhy ( 659436 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @07:30AM (#13649386)
    no, what bittorrent needs to implement is some kind of encrypted protection or key for trackers so that any attempt to subvert them is a DMCA violation. turn their own weapon against them.
  • Re:So what? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Freexe ( 717562 ) <serrkr@tznvy.pbz> on Monday September 26, 2005 @07:40AM (#13649434) Homepage
    Show me a place I can buy, rent, watch or download the entire X-men oringal series cartoon and I will stop downloading it now and buy it.

    In fact most of what I download are things that I simple cannot buy or or so expensive that I wouldn't ever consider paying that much money for it (would you pay £180 / $321 USD (£150 now) for My So Called Life [amazon.co.uk] which is only 19 episodes long and a one of my faviourate shows from when i was a kid, or would you download load it for free?).

    If they would be reasonable about the whole thing I would be happy to pay for old shows and films, but this simply isn't the case.
  • Answer me this. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by sgant ( 178166 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @07:50AM (#13649487) Homepage Journal
    OK, not trying to justify anything here, but where does all the law stand on an issue like this?

    What if I were to download "The Simpsons" from last nights free broadcast? I'm not uploading anything, just downloading and watching it, then deleting it after I watch it. Can I be arrested for this or is it copyright violations? I'm not selling anything. I'm not causing the lost revinue from watching this. No, even though the commercials are not on the download, it still doesn't matter as I never watch commercials anyway. If I were to watch it on TV and don't watch the commercials, can I be arrested for that then? Is that copyright violation also? What if I were to tape the show with a VCR, but not the commercials...wouldn't this also be exactly like just downloading the show? I still have the end product. The Simpsons from last night. What if I were to record the show from last night and put it on my HD. Again, the exact same result. I would have the exact same show on my HD without commercials wither I downloaded it or taped it. And how could they prove it otherwise? Unless of course I were to take the show I recorded and then distributed it.

    This is all a grey area here. Is this illegal like stealing a car and downloaders should go to jail, or is it copyright violation and downloaders should just be made to feel guilty (or go to jail) or is it really nothing? Again, I'm not trying to justify anything here...just want to know where the law stands on people that record a free show vs downloading the exact same free show...both WITHOUT commercials. If some say that the it's the commercials that make it a free show then I suppose I should be hauled off for jail for YEARS of not watching the commericals.
  • Re:Enforcement (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Grey Ninja ( 739021 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @07:55AM (#13649513) Homepage Journal
    Well, I'm a Canadian. I break no laws when I download music on bittorrent... but these people are making it extremely difficult to download my music in peace.
  • isn't it illegal? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by curious.corn ( 167387 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @07:58AM (#13649527)
    Luring someone into engaging in some illegal activity and then suing or reporting it to law enforcement is considered a crime over here in Italy. Is it the same in the US? One thing is a police officer infiltrating a mob, another one is wiretapping a communication device without a judge's supervision by a private individual. On top of that, if the network sniffing is done by joining it and participating in the transmission of data, they are actively participating to the eventual crime.
  • by Zocalo ( 252965 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @08:24AM (#13649620) Homepage
    I see there is already a growing list of known bad trackers out there, so this is just going to turn into a game of Whack-a-Mole between the parties responsible for the bad tracker and the downloaders. Problem is, there are an awfully large number of people trying to download the files; it's not going to take very long at all before bad trackers are detected and their IPs permanantly blocked. I'd expect this to happen even quicker on Torrent listing sites that allow their users to provide feedback on a per Torrent basis or have forums for feedback. And since we're talking about a community built on sharing data, I doubt that the individual sites are going to be keeping their lists to themselves either...

    Not withstanding the fact that bandwidth is cheap. If someone finds their latest Torrent download has frozen at 98%, they are probably just going to shrug it off and find another Torrent, only by this point there will have been enough time for forums to get some feedback about which Torrents are actually good. All this is going to buy the Studios is a short delay in the time it takes someone to get their files, probably less than a day for even the highest quality feature film. Plus, they'll almost certainly be cursing the studios even more for the delay instead of thinking "Gee, maybe I should go and spend some money".

    Somehow, I suspect that this is yet another instance of a media company being taken to the cleaners with a "magic bullet" solution by a group of snake oil salesmen. Heck, it might even be some of the same bunch that told them DRM would prevent people taking unauthorised copies of audios CDs, and we all know how well that's working out for them. I can't help but wonder what the situation would be like if instead of assuming all of their customers were crooks they had spent that money on providing tangible extras people might actually want and/or reducing prices...

  • by Solandri ( 704621 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @08:24AM (#13649622)
    I bought Photoshop CS. Photography is a hobby, but one I take seriously enough to be semi-pro at it with the occasional paid job. The product activation in PS CS turned out to be a real problem. Nearly every time I did a system restore, PS CS would deactivate, requiring I call Adobe to reactivate it. Windows being the way it is and me liking to tweak with my laptop, I had to restore a lot. It was getting beyond annoying and I was starting to worry about Adobe blacklisting my copy of PS CS. So I downloaded a pirated copy of it along with a key generator. I kept that on my hard drive and started reinstalling instead of having Adobe reactivate.

    At the end of a trip to Europe, I was working at editing and printing a bunch of pictures I'd taken of an event. I needed to use a photo printer someone else provided. The printer driver install went awry and I had to do a system restore to fix it. Sure enough Photoshop deactivated itself. I was at a hostel in the mountains, about 12 hours before my departing flight, without any Internet access, at 4 am, with no idea what phone number I was supposed to call to reach Adobe tech support if they were even open at that time on a Sunday. So I uninstalled Photoshop, dug up the pirated copy, and installed that. Worked like a charm. I got the pictures edited and printed, the people at the event were happy, and I made my flight home.

    When Photoshop CS2 came out, I bought that as well. And I downloaded a pirated copy of it off bittorrent. Of course the real irony is that if Adobe handn't put in product activation as an anti-piracy measure, I never would've needed to get the pirated version.
  • Re:Answer me this. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by TheCrunch ( 179188 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @08:54AM (#13649803) Homepage
    I agree with you that there is a very blurry legal distinction between watching a downloaded recording as opposed to watching your own recording. What I do see, however, is the RIAA's problem with those that distribute the recordings in the first place (And the line between those responsible for uploading and those that download is made even blurrier with BitTorrent). It is not our right to distribute such content (with or without ads), it is that of the licensed broadcaster.

    I believe it is the TV stations that are missing out here and not the content creators. The TV stations have paid to air the shows and get advertisment revenue partly based on viewer figures. Surely it could be better for everyone if instead of poisoning torrents, that TV stations released their shows over the web with their ads. Those that don't want to watch the ads will of course find a way, but the same stands with regular TV.

    Advertisers pay to have their adverts shown and expect that there is no guarantee that they will be watched. They expect a certain percent of viewers (majority) will watch their ads and pay accordingly. Assuming there is no painfully easy way for the average Joe downloader to strip ads from downloaded content then it is safe to assume that a certain percent of Internet viewers (majority?) will watch these ads - and again, the advertisers can pay accordingly.

    Undoubtedly the percentage of Internet viewers that watch the ads will be much lower than with regular TV. As ad-stripping tools will come in the form of free software download versus buying a PVR. However, the advertisers can pay according to this (IE: less). What's more, I believe both QuickTime and WMV have the capability to show live content. So the ads could have clickable hyperlinks - an attractive prospect for advertisers, I'm sure. (No popups please!!)

    I can't say how this will end up but I'm willing to bet that downloading shows/movies over p2p networks is here to stay and will be legal in one form or another. The question is who's willing to make the first move and offer a legal system, like has been finally done with music.

    -TheCrunch
  • by FreakTrap ( 917843 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @09:05AM (#13649866)
    Define 'broken'. If a file is stored in a multi-part RAR Archive with passworded encryption, is it not broken? It is an absolutly useless packet of data to anyone without the password to extract it. And when its downloaded as a broken file collection, and then extracted and watched, where is the point at which it becomes illegal? Is it illegal to download the 'broken' file, or is it illegal to extract and watch it? And if it's only illegal to extract/watch the file, then is it not illegal to upload the 'broken' file?
  • by The Ultimate Fartkno ( 756456 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @09:06AM (#13649872)
    Don't count on it. People have been successfully prosecuted hundreds of times for selling "drugs" that turned out to be flour, oregano, pudding, etc. If you're representing your product as something illegal then you can't defend yourself by saying "but that coke was actually baby laxative, that's not illegal to sell!" The converse is just as true. If an undercover officer sells you something that you believe to be illegal, then you can't claim innocence when it turns out to be fake. I'm not saying that copyright law is 100% analogous to drug laws, but there's an *extremely* strong legal precedent there.
  • Re:So what? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by ajs318 ( 655362 ) <sd_resp2@@@earthshod...co...uk> on Monday September 26, 2005 @09:16AM (#13649937)
    So are you saying that if I record a TV programme, does that mean I'm only allowed to watch it once? Or that I'm not allowed to show the recording to anyone else?

    The BBC already paid the actors' royalties out of my licence fee when they first broadcast the show, irrespective of whether or not I watched it. Therefore, as I see it, I might as well watch it just to get my full money's worth.
  • by Halo1 ( 136547 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @09:36AM (#13650081)
    Guess that would give plenty of time to harvest the IP, whilst the pirates end up with gigabytes of useless 1s & 0s....
    Downloading a bunch of useless 1s & 0s is not illegal in any way, regardless of how that collection is called. They own the copyright on the meaningful content. Maybe they can sue based on "intent to violate copyright" or so, but you did not violate any copyright downloading that stuff...
  • Re:So what? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by atriusofbricia ( 686672 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @09:36AM (#13650084) Journal
    Is the MPAA buying up /. accounts these days or what?

    With that said, in general I've found downloading movies to be silly and a waste of time. But, that's more because DVD's don't really cost that much and in the cases where the extras are worth it I'll buy them.

    For TV shows, that I missed, there is nothing better than BT.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 26, 2005 @09:52AM (#13650221)
    I don't think its acceptible behaviour to try and scam your customers (The new Outer Limits 'Complete Series') or just to deprive/control content with no good reason. When corperations can't keep a check on these things themselve its up to us as the people to do it. If that means creating a P2P network to 'compete' then so be it.
    The irony of this statement is that indeed Corporations which are entities of the free market seek to impose restrictions on the use of their services and products by their customers that the inventor of free market capitalism, Adam Smith would have vehemently opposed. A quote from the wikipedia article on Mr. Smith:
    One of the main points of The Wealth of Nations is that the free market, while appearing chaotic and unrestrained, is actually guided to produce the right amount and variety of goods by a so-called "invisible hand". If a product shortage occurs, for instance, its price rises, creating incentive for its production, and eventually curing the shortage. The increased competition among manufacturers and increased supply would also lower the price of the product to its production cost, the "natural price". Smith believed that while human motives are often selfish and greedy, the competition in the free market would tend to benefit society as a whole anyway. Nevertheless, he was wary of businessmen and argued against the formation of monopolies.
    In fact I think Adam Smith would have seen the creation of the free market balancing results of online p2p networks as a very efficient method to alleviate the grose imbalance that exists between product pricing and product production costs that exists especially in the entertainment industry. He'd also see p2p as an excellent method for maximizing distribution of a product across a prospective field of consumers (what better method is there than the use of computers to spirit information across the globe nearly instantly?) The idea of "laissez-fair" would be allowed to run its course, to rectify imbalances produced by the artifical regulations imposed on the market by government. As evidence of this, note the affects that such networks have already wrought on the industry, reduced prices and deeper market penetration for the media companies products as opposed to the much feared reduced profits due to the ease with which entertainment media could be copied and distributed. Today's generation Z are more likely to purchase CD's by Cream , Irving Berlin or Ray Charles on the basis of downloading a few choice cuts from the mentioned artists over a p2p network than I ever could at that age.
  • Technical solutions (Score:3, Interesting)

    by NicenessHimself ( 619194 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @10:49AM (#13650654)
    I am completely against sharing things illegally.

    But that aside, technical solutions present themselves to me. Maybe they have not be investigated by others, so I give them here in the hope its helpful to those fighting the corruption of _legal_ shares.

    As a file downloads, it typically contains sufficient information in parts to be understood without the entirity of the file.

    For example, as a movie is downloaded in segments, segments themselves contain keyframes. By fast-forward playing the the movie as it arrives, skipping incomplete segments, in a small thumbnail, bad quality or fake torrents would be easily identifable.

    Further statistical tools could measure such things as the rate the scene moves, so fake movies that contain promising keyframes but then garbage to obliterate the content might be tagged as suspicious long before the complete movie is downloaded and ready for viewing fullscreen etc.

    If you have downloaded 99% of a movie, you ought to be able to play that 99%.
  • by Kjella ( 173770 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @11:21AM (#13650876) Homepage
    "you may have received 98% of actually copyrighted data. So it's copyright infringement nonetheless even if the product turns out to be useless."

    Why not? because it's not copyright infringement if you have permission from the copyright holder, right?


    I know that here you can be charged with smuggling flour if they can prove that you thought you were smuggling drugs. If you thought you were illegally downloading a copy of "The O.C.", then you were breaking the law regardless of what the bits actually are. In a criminal case this works, since there's no government entrapment. In a civil case it doesn't work, because the MPAA would have "unclean hands", where they actively work to increase the liability. So no, you won't see the MPAA sue people over this. This is a means to waste people's time and bandwidth and raise the S/N ratio.

    Kjella
  • Re:So what? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Kjella ( 173770 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @12:25PM (#13651415) Homepage
    Then you know what you do with the rental? Rip it.

    With this line, I read your whole comment as "Online pirates are using an inefficient way of pirating, here's a better one." The rest is just arguments for and against. In that case, I'll raise you one. Burn DVDs and trade with your friends. No rental fees, no bandwidth costs.

    Also, look at the development. Locally, over the last two years CD and DVD prices have been reasonably constant. In the same period I could either keep my bandwidth (1Mbit), and cut costs by 2/3rds, or keep my costs and increase bandwidth by 20x/6x (down/up).

    I did some quick math using current prices and found that you'd need from 15% (1Mbit) to 2% (20Mbit) utilization to do better than rentals. And that means paying for the whole connection, with the rest free for surfing, music, software and whatever else you'd like to download.

    In fact, that entire logic is flawed. If you want to do a simple cost-analysis (not counting legal or ehtical issues), you can easily cost-justify having slow broadband for music alone. Even if you take uncompressed WAV it is 1/10th the size and costs the same as a DVD. And given that you will have slow broadband for other things anyway, the upgrade to fast broadband is next to nothing. Let us presume that you already have a 1Mbit DSL line. Now I'm looking at 4% (4Mbit) to 1% (20Mbit) utilization.

    In short, there's no competing against the cost of bandwidth. It is a losing battle, and the MPAA is very much aware of it. They are the last bastion (text, pictures, music, applications and games has already fallen) where bandwidth matters, and not for long. After that it is a matter of convienience, integrity and quality. The biggest "cost" of getting the latest Metallica CD is my facetime, not bandwidth or computer time. It will be the same for movies.

    Kjella
  • Estoppel. It's called estoppel.

    If someone harm you, and you fail to do anything about it for long enough, despite you being in communications with them, you can't sue them for damages. You must make some effort to migrate the damages beforehand.

    Civil law is based on the idea of 'tort', that other people caused harm to you, and you can't let other people keep 'hurting' you and then sue them when you think they've racked up enough damages. You have to try to stop them at some point. Otherwise the court rightly supposes that you weren't really being harmed, or didn't mind the harm.

    I.e., I can't let my next-door neighbor can't drive over a corner of my grass for ten years as he pulls into his driveway, keep track of how much grass he's killed, and then sue him for that amount. I have to actually have tried for stop him for the last ten years, via talking to him and even putting up a pole so he can't do that anymore. (And then I can sue him for the cost of the pole. ;) )

    And you can't cause people to keep 'hurting' you and then sue them for it. That'll get you laughed out of court so fast it's not funny.

    If the MPAA hands out a torrent into a network that is designed for end users to share the files, they can't complain when exactly that happens.

  • by ultranova ( 717540 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @01:28PM (#13651926)

    Ahh.. but even if the downloaded file really was what it was claimed to be, and it really did come from the rights holders, and thus you really did have the right to download it.. that does not mean you have the right to distribute it. So you're still breaking the law by uploading to other peers (which is very hard to prevent when using BitTorrent).

    One might argue that the copyright holders themselves caused this upload to occur; after all, they did know how BitTorrent operates, and it was obvious that this would be a direct result of their actions. On the other hand, none of this really matters, since the RIAA has money on its side, and can therefore win any legal dispute simply by dragging it out until their opponent goes banckrup, whether or not that opponent is guilty of anything, or simply buy the neccessary changes to law by bribing (sorry, "contributing to") the right politicians.

    We really, really, really need some kind of point-2-point instant wireless untraceable magical quantum communication device...

  • by sustik ( 90111 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @02:11PM (#13652231)
    Do not miss the point of the harvested IP-s. Even if they have no case, a lawsuit brought on you by **AA is a HUGE inconvenience, and will have the desired deterring effect.
  • Re:Well... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by An Onerous Coward ( 222037 ) on Monday September 26, 2005 @03:20PM (#13652786) Homepage
    In practice, probably not.

    However, if people don't find a way to get rid of the crappy torrents, things could get bad for anyone who wants to distribute something that someone else doesn't want them distributing.

    Okay, here's a doomsday scenario for you: Hacker releases virus. Virus causes infected boxen to publish craptorrents, masquerading as material hacker wants people not to download, and to register said craptorrents on major torrent sites. Suddenly, it becomes very difficult to figure out which files are legitimate, and people give up on Bittorrent.

    If this means that people can't get their bootlegged copy of "The Wedding Crashers," or other material that people really oughtn't be downloading, that's one thing. But what if the person trying to crapflood the torrent sites wants to take out legitimate downloads?

    Now, this technique doesn't have an effect on legitimate trackers, except making them hard to find on certain sites. So this technique should be seen more as an attack on sites that aggregate trackers, rather than on the Bittorrent protocol itself. They'll have to fight back, most likely with some sort of reputation system.
  • Re:So what? (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 26, 2005 @04:44PM (#13653480)
    You miss the point. The founding idea behind copyright is to promote the arts and sciences (read your Constitution), not take existing works and lock them away for all time. If there is no current "supply" of something, then yes, the copyright holders are failing to meet their part of the deal. The general idea of copyright being that my making unauthorized copies would deprive the copyright holder of income to be derived from being the sole source of copies of a work, what is the harm to the copyright holder who refuses to derive income from a work if someone else should take up the task?

Get hold of portable property. -- Charles Dickens, "Great Expectations"

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