Followup on MS and Brazil in NY Times 386
putko was one of dozens to submit a story running on the NY Times about Open Source and Brazil. The choice quote is
"We're not going to spend taxpayers' money on a program so that Microsoft can further consolidate its monopoly..."
Have to say . . . (Score:5, Insightful)
Others say the government should focus its technology initiatives elsewhere, especially in schools. Only 19 percent of Brazil's public schools have computers.
This is where technology can be most wisely spent, where it will have the greatest benefit, and where kids will actually learn about computers.
Of course it'll also be most effective at creating a mindset that isn't geared towards using MS products.
Good.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Great! (Score:5, Insightful)
This is really a wonderful, wonderful idea. It's a shame more governments haven't adopted this philosophy. Lots of governments just find it so easy to spend money that they didn't "earn". I have to congratulate Brazil on this!
Come up north! (Score:1, Insightful)
Theirs no way the American government would ever take into the idea of open source but Canada might.
Re:About that quote... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Good.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Good.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Best news I have read in ages (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Good.. (Score:5, Insightful)
the government should decide on what gets the job done with the least amount of money
I can't agree with you there. Its not about what's cheapest. A government looking to purchase or build anything (software, roads, a desk, etc.) should not decide solely on price. This is when we get into complaining about the "lowest bidder" and the crappy work they do. The government, like anyone, should choose a product based on cost AND quality. Sometimes its better to spend more if it will save time/money/lives later on.
Choice (Score:2, Insightful)
"...instead of giving consumers the option of paying..."
While I applaud their efforts, I also question their motives. Less options != good thing.
Re:Good.. (Score:3, Insightful)
a) having tax money benefit the taxpayers before corporations
b) encouraging an active culture of competition (which *should* lower prices while increasing value)
c) remaining independant of corporate interests
d) All of the above, so that the overall cost in the long term will be much less
Then you would do quite well to fund an 'open' ideology and not line Billy Boy's pockets...
Just a question of perspective, not short term costs.
Re:Have to say . . . (Score:0, Insightful)
You're encouraging lock-in by showing them how to use proprietary software at a young age.
Re:Bankrupt?... (Score:1, Insightful)
Debt clock [brillig.com]
MS's biggest weakness... (Score:3, Insightful)
There is a large difference between a low cost crippled windows version without any significant software package and a free fully complete OS with all the packages available for free...
Guess what most people are going to pick when they are informed correctly?
Re:It doesn't matter... (Score:5, Insightful)
Most computer literate people, with experience on windows will switch to pirated copies of XP. Some will do it at the beckoning of their friends. But most will just use what comes with their computer so that they won't break their computer.
Funny thing is that when they see what will happen to their friends unpatched pirated copy of XP in a few months, they will realize that was a wise choice
Open Source? (Score:4, Insightful)
If I knew Portuguese... (Score:3, Insightful)
What a load... (Score:5, Insightful)
The *government* are not the masses. They choose to opt for a cheaper solution, whats the problem?
Its pure capitalism, Microsoft are free to offer Windows free and open source to Brazil, if Microsoft can't compete why should Brazil make a special exception for them?
Brazil the Frontrunner (Score:2, Insightful)
Brazil should go with Linux and used the save money on depth charges to get rid of the Great White Sharks that are hunting in packs and actin a fool.
Or better yet, they can use the money to restore the rainforest, or to buy back land from McDonalds farms so they can stop the slash and burn technique.
[cx]
Re:Good.. (Score:3, Insightful)
No they shouldn't, because from a government perspective money is fairly meaningless, they print it afterall. Of course there are limits to the amount of money a government can spend obviously. But as long as its kept within the country its simply "the people" borrowing and taxing from themselves. Whats really important is how much physical labor is spent obtaining what you need. Directly no physical labor by brazilians are needed to purchase Microsoft because its another country doing the work. But indirectly those dollars have to come from somewhere, most likly labor done by brazilians which are exported out to other countries. So they can continue overworking their poor to send basic goods to other countries to trade for software. Or they can invest in training their own people and using their own peoples talents to develop software for the common good. Sound like communism I guess, but its more of a story of inhousing vs outsourcing. And when you are trading millions of hours of manual labor for a few thousand hours or mental labor, especially when some of the same people can be trained and move from the physical to mental labor division with only expense being training and no pay raise (smart people don't cost the government more, possibly they make them more in taxes infact) its a win-win situation.
Re:NYT article. (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Do
2) Does a free technology market exist for the government to interfere in?
3) Do
The answers are: no, no and yes. There is no contradiction here. The people of Brazil will have the option of buying a Windows OS from a store blowing away their shipped configuration and installing Windows. That's the same right that Americans today enjoy with respect to Linux. It will be interesting to see how many people do that.
Payola governments with short term goals. (Score:2, Insightful)
If the IBM Government invests $100 million in OSS than the next time they need something doing, OSS with be $100 million better. Infact when Brazil next want something why should they pay for Microsoft cut down Windows when the IBM have just put $100 million into free software.
Investment in OSS is investment in your own country, not in Ireland or the US. Investment in OSS is incremental so that anyone can take out regardless of how much they put in, the money doesn't go on the next XBox advertising campain.
Getting the job done is one thing, but Governments are about making sure the job gets done in the feture and around the world just as much as they are about Today and in you back yard.
Re:Best news I have read in ages (Score:4, Insightful)
1) Sets document standards for what can be submitted to the government
2) Uses only certain protocols
3) Purchases many millions of systems
4) Spends billions and harms are relations with other countries trying to spread US patent law and US copyright law abroad
5) Funds a percentage of early software development in terms of research grants.
6) Provides the educational system where people gain first exposure to various OSes
etc... They are involved.
Re:Best news I have read in ages (Score:3, Insightful)
Brazil: Just Do It! (Score:5, Insightful)
Consider what Brazil has done in the recent past:
- Photo-ed and fingerprinted incoming American citizens in
response to America's change in visa policies.
- Charged fairly hefty import tariffs for PCs to promote
local industry.
- Promotes Brazilian music, and indirectly, interest in
Brazilian culture and tourism, via the encouragement of
free music downloads [I read this in a magazine, but
can't anything online confirming it. Can anyone help?]
I'm not saying that these are necessarily all good things. I just want to say that Brazil tends to do it their way, in spite external pressure.It's nice to see a country actually withstand to pressure from the multi-nationals and try to implement a policy for the benefit of all its citizens, rather than the usual vested interests. Let's just hope it doesn't become corrupted.
Also, recognize that Brazil is interested making their population computer literate. This includes the longer term goal of developing a viable computer software industry. Open Source is an inexpensive and suitable platform for giving everyone a software development environment. Why only a few may actually use it, I'm sure it will create a lot of talented programmers.
You left one off. (Score:3, Insightful)
It will be far better for them, as a country, if their people start learning how to fix bugs / add functionality in Linux (kernel/desktops/apps) than if they just build database apps in Access.
Ideally, it will only take a few years for them to bring a bunch of people up to speed and then those people can start expanding/enhancing Linux to meet whatever needs the government/people have.
Rather than waiting until the next release of Windows which will require even faster processors / more RAM / better video.
Lucky them (Score:2, Insightful)
Why is OSS equated with Leftist ideology? (Score:4, Insightful)
I really fucking hate this. This is the typical newspeak propaganda used by companies terrified of losing their stranglehold on consumers by loudly bleating "Communist" into the air in order to get support from the more paranoid fringes of society, such as politicians who get kick backs from such companies.
What Supply and Demand is this guy talking about? Does he mean to infer that all those people should remain uneducated because they can't afford to buy some bullshit company's overpriced product? Tell that to the people yourself, you cunt. Also tell them that buying Microsoft's Windows will make them even poorer than they currently are, since the only way Microsoft is ever going to sell Windows at a low price is to sell some ultra crippled piece of shit such as the Starter Edition which no one wants.
Re:Contrast... (Score:3, Insightful)
Hear hear!
While I was an undergraduate, even though I was taking classes, I got an in-depth education in software mainly by reading code:
- partly from listings,
- partly from disassembling a whole operating system with a little help from a listing of its predecessor when it was much smaller,
- greatly aided by a scheduling system that left me with time on my hands waiting for my turn at the machine, or the machine on my hands waiting for output to be printed and input to be punched,
and then making upgrades to it.
(One of the first upgrades was to build, first an editor, then a full-blown emulation of the Dartmouth Basic run-what-you're-edtiing environment (but using Fortran on a tape-based machine). Then I didn't have to wait for listing-to-card, card-to-tape, and tape-to-print services and could do a debugging turn in minutes rather than one or two per day. That drastically accellerated the learning process.)
This was in the days when OSes were so small that you COULD disassemble them single-handedly in a few months of part-time effort. But having a home machine, complete source code to a very advanced system, and powerful software development tools in your hands 24/7 (maybe divided by number of family members) should make a similar learning experience easier, faster, and deeper for those people of Brazil who wish to try it.
I expect an ongoing avalanche of new stuff from them, starting within a couple years after this program gets off the ground.
Re:NYT article. (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't think Brazil is making it illegal to use Microsoft software. They are simply not subsidizing its use.
Re:What a load... (Score:5, Insightful)
it is *exactly* these sort of decisions that govt. is for
The load is your own. (Score:5, Insightful)
Again, I repeat FTA: "Buyers will be able to pay in 24 installments of 50 to 60 reais, or about $18 to $21.80 a month,"
Does Dell allow you to pay over 24 months? No, I didn't think so. Is the Brazillian government forcing people to buy these cheap computers? No, you can buy HPs, Dells and even Macs in Brazil, and the government certainly doesn't care about those who can afford it, but is offering a cheap solution for poor people, of which there are a lot in Brazil. It's not the USA and American principles don't reign supreme everywhere, much to the chagrin of people like you.
Re:Best news I have read in ages (Score:1, Insightful)
Hmm, Americans always seem confused by this. They fail to consider the cost of local labor vs. American labor (because in the US they are the same)
MS support costs US dollars for US technicians if it goes beyond a certain level (since MS source is closed). Linux support, once enough people in Brazil are sufficiently technically involved with it, will be paid for to Brazilian technicians in Brazilian reais.
I assure you this difference is not insignificant. And that's even if, as you imply, the cost in man hours might be the same.
Re:Why is OSS equated with Leftist ideology? (Score:4, Insightful)
When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist."
-- Dom Helder Camara
Re:Good.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:NYT article. (Score:3, Insightful)
Zero (give or take a few). Some might communise... *ahem* I mean steal a copy of Windows and reformat their hard drive. However, since most of these people have never used a PC much, they won't really have much motivation to switch to Windows. The reason that a lot of people insist on using Windows is because they're used to it, so it's easy for them. They often complain about their favourite programmes not being available under Linux. The poor Brazilians in question do not yet have such a collection of favourite programmes.
Why do you think that? (Score:2, Insightful)
Micro$oft doesn't want to people start using Linux because it's the begining of the revolution. Think this way: Which one is most likely to get a job on a small store that already uses Linux? The guy with a Connected PC with Linux or the one using Windows?
Re:NYT article. (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't see why people should be forced to pay for software when they don't want/need it. If some people decide they need Microsoft Windows they can buy it and load it on themselves.
Re:What a load... (Score:1, Insightful)
Sure, they can load Windows on their machiens if they want. Windows has the market, though. If you read what's being said they're saying that they're trying to provide software that is Free (no dependency on others) and create a market with competition. Plus, if the government is using Free software then why not encourage the people to? Ubiquity is the main reason why people prefer Windows anyhow.
Remember that if they use only free versions of Free software then they avoid the "Microsoft Tax" scenerio. People are more able to choose whether to keep the software that came for free or replace it with other software (free or not).
Re:What a load... (Score:3, Insightful)
One of the jobs most people gladly give to the government is to keep the criminal elements in check. Microsoft has been found guilty of abusing its monopoly power where ever it has been tried for this, so it is only fair that the Brazilian government will try to stop this from happening.
Oh, unless you live in Brazil, stop whining. Each country is supposed to manage the affairs of its people the best they can. That can well be different in different countries. It is called freedom!
Re:NYT article. (Score:1, Insightful)
The Brazilian government is doing a great thing. This scheme is intended to help stimulate their economy and grow their educated classes. They're using Brazilian tax money to do it. Why should they squander that tax money on proprietary software from anyone, Microsoft or otherwise? Free Software can be used for nothing, or a fraction of the price. It's a sound economic decision.
Re:Why is OSS equated with Leftist ideology? (Score:3, Insightful)
Why is this newspeak?
Every word he says rings true in my ears.
The basic premise of supply and demand is, and has always been, been one of distribution to those who can afford. Which by inference, means not distributing to those who cannot. It's a fairly harsh principle. If you can't handle it, good for you, but it's nothing new, and certainly doesn't make this newspeak
Furthermore, considering his views on 'laws of supply and demand'; Giving away something freely certainly ruins the balance between supply and demand! Just like public roads hampers the balance between cars and trains, like the police hampers the balance between security firms and public. By definition, anything the government does hampers the laws of supply and demand. Some we all accept as good things, others we disagree about.
Lastly, the notion of giving away something for 'free', like healthcare, broadband, access to public road and this case operating systems is quite more common among the more leftist of us, than the right-wing people. In my book, the comment about this being leftist is certainly correct.
Neither Communist nor leftist are swear-words you know :) They have pretty distinct meanings.
Re:What a load... (Score:3, Insightful)
Really? the govt exist to endorse one form of software over another?
Any market which naturally degenerates into a monopoly is a good place for the government to regulate or become a service provider or to set standards. Computer operating systems have become an "essential facility", just as electric lines running a certain voltage, roads, or last mile phone line service to homes.
Brazil's citizens are still free to go out and purchase a copy of Microsoft Windows and install it on their PCs if they find the value proposition attractive over the FOSS that "comes with their PC".
Personally, I don't find the supposed heavy hand of Brazilian government any more distasteful than the exercise of Microsoft's excessive marketplace power in other countries over the past couple of decades. The United States Department of Justice showed it could not stand up to MS and the EU is taking its time to do so. Bravo to Brazil for having the balls to do it!
Re:NYT article. (Score:3, Insightful)
......Mmmmmmm, let's see. "User", by definition, is not one that meddles into how the thingy works. I do not see many cars with the bonnets up, and their happy owners using up the last of their wrenches.
BUT, maybe, just maybe, a small percentage of the users will want to see how it all works, and start trying to change the program, a bit here, a bit there...and voilà, as a country, you are the happy owner of at least a hundred linux programmers!
So, the moral is... you have a home grown software industry. No windows user grows into a windows programmer unless he's able to access MORE programs, probably formal training. And anyway, the thing that can scare Brazil off the most is that MS quashed competitors in the US, , so there's no point in trying to establish a MS centric software industry.
Re:Good.. (Score:2, Insightful)
The priority of the administration has to be 'getting the job done'.
I disagree. Mantaining control over the technology used should be part of 'getting the job done'
In a letter sent in reply to Microsoft, a congressman of Peru pointed out some priorities for their administration:
http://www.gnu.org.pe/resmseng.html [gnu.org.pe]
This letter explains my position far better than I could ever do. So no, not everything should be built on productivity alone. That may be true in a private company (and I think it should not be a desirable position either), but not in public administrations.Much Cry for Nothing (Score:2, Insightful)
Buy a expensive computer(cash or monthly) with legal Windows copy or buy a cheaper(cash, or 3 installments) in the gray market with pirate Windows.
Now, besides those, people can buy a cheaper computer paying monthly(24!) with Linux. Dont want Linux? Dont like?
Buy a windows copy, cash, for about 50% of the hardware price you have.. or by a 5 CDs for U$10 with Windows, Office, and whatever you want...
Where is the problem? They're giving the 'right' to people to feel good not having to pirate anything...
Id prefer people to have the choice for one, or even both systems. BUT, no one is disallowing MS to offer for those that buy this PC a special offer on Windows, very cheap and installed for free. Its just not OEM installed, but also not charged from those who dont want windows at all