Credit card signatures: Useless? 1067
SpaceAdmiral writes "Everyone should remember John Hargrave's classic Credit Card Prank on Zug. He tried signing fake names on his credit card receipt, and no one seemed to care.
But that's nothing compared to The Credit Card Prank, Part 2. Can he draw obscene pictures instead of signing his credit card? Yes, it turns out. Is there any way of getting your signature checked? . . . Yes, it turns out. But you have to do an awful lot."
Re:Almost useless (Score:5, Insightful)
I know it isnt a lot, but it helps me feel a little more comfortable that had I been a criminal trying to get a bad credit card accross I would have been foild.
Then you have Wal Marts and such that you swipe the card yourself.... ugh.
Re:Not in the UK. (Score:2, Insightful)
More people will read this than my signature... (Score:2, Insightful)
And credit card companies complain about rampant theft and people filing bankrupcy... yet the security on these cards is ridiculous. They promise to pay ALL debt incurred due to a stolen card, yet they give out miniature sized cards to put ON YOUR KEYCHAIN and no one gives half a shit about what you sign when you swipe the damn thing. The whole system is a joke.
See ID (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, it's safe because it forces them to check the ID of the card's user, and it's funny because you can really tell if they care or not, since maybe people check it 1/10 of the time.
Of course, someone could still buy gas, order online/over phone with it., etc.
Re:Some people pay attention (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Almost useless (Score:5, Insightful)
And smart cards you're talking about are WAY better than what we have here [america]. First off, having the card doesn't net you anything. You need the pin to get it todo anything.
Second, the reader doesn't get anything useful off you. This stops magreader thieves from stealing your card info.
Third, you actually need the pin to make it work.
I think guessing a 4 digit pin is harder than writing "shamoo" on a receipt...
Tom
Ever buy a house?? Your signature will get sloppy (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Completely. (Score:2, Insightful)
I looked at the signer, to see how comfortable they were reproducing the signature, then at the signature, to see how close it was. I didn't expect perfect duplication every time, since I don't sign the same every time myself.
Signature checking is no panacea, its another step in reducing CASUAL fraud. Scammers are going to be practiced, and may well get by my eyeball check, but I'll catch the guy who just snagged your wallet at the beach across the street.
As to your attempted pissing away my time because I took an extra 20 seconds to look at your signature, big fat hairy deal. I'm on shift til I'm done, and when my shift ends, I'm gone, with you still there or not.
If you don't care to get it checked, goodie for you. Free check anyway! I check because people get robbed. What's your reasoning -- I'm wasting your time? I waste more time counting your change out, or waiting for your reciept to print than I do watching you sign and looking at the back of your card.
Carping and timewasters don't bother me, I'm got a piss-poor customer service attitude already. I've had customer complaints because they didn't like the way I DIDN'T argue with them. What can YOU do?
Re:Completely. (Score:2, Insightful)
Wow - what an odd point of view! I am always far more annoyed/concerned when it is obvious that my signature has *not* been checked. I'd much rather they spent a few extra moments checking that I was the legitimate user of my card, rather than the guy who just mugged me for it (the worst cases being those where they swipe the card, hand it back and only then give you the receipt to sign!). Of course this is becoming less of an issue now that Chip and PIN is being rolled out across the UK but personally I'd be happy if I could order a card with 'Only Accept With Photo ID' printed on it (and yeah, I'd have it as an optional thing - I'm not a fan on compulsory ID cards)
Argh! (Score:5, Insightful)
The signature panel is not there to prove your identity... its there to show that you agreed to the terms of the cardmember agreement. (ie you agree to pay) It has NOTHING to do with your card's security.
When you sign a credit card draft, it says something to the tune of "I agree to adhere to the terms of the previously agreed to cardmember agreement". Your signing the card signals that you agreed to adhere to that agreement.
Its an outdated and silly mechanism that still exists because the precise meaning of electronic signatures still varies in some jurisdictions.
Some things to consider (Score:5, Insightful)
1 - Don't just write "see id" on the signature line of your card. Most people don't realize that credit cards are transferable. That is why they almost always contain the phrases "NOT VALID UNLESS SIGNED" and "AUTHORIZED SIGNATURE". If you fail to sign your card, then the person who steals it will just sign it for you. It doesn't matter if the signature matches the name on the front of the card. It only matters if the signature on the back matches the signature on the receipt. If writing "see id" on the back of your card makes you feel safer, great, but please remember to also sign the card.
2 - If you want someone to check your ID when you sign your card, please hand it to the cashier with your credit card.
3 - The security of your credit cards is primarily your concern not the concern of the cashier. I assure you that someone who refuses payment to some yuppie that forgot their driver's license would almost assuredly be reprimanded when that same person calls in to complain. And they WILL complain. People are not reasonable. YOU may be, but trust me, not everyone is as understanding as you are.
Cheers!
-Pointed Stick
pay attention (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Almost useless (Score:2, Insightful)
If they need a PIN as well, their job is made much harder. I would guess that most card thefts are opportunistic, where anyone's card would do. If the thief spies you entering your PIN, they then have to target you specifically to rob you of your card.
In addition, requiring a PIN to be entered forces the checking process, rather than relying on the cashier's vigilance.
Re:My solution (Score:3, Insightful)
You can't change the system. The signature area is for signatures. You are going to have tons of trouble with your silly "solution". Why not write "the user has a mole above his lip" or some other idenitifing mark? Why not because its for signatures and clerks are going to play your game.
Let's face it. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I wish they wouldn't look at my signature. (Score:2, Insightful)
I just really can't understand why it's annoying. The people in our society who act like they should never be bother by anything and that the world revolves around them is the only thing that's annoying here.
Re:Not in the UK. (Score:2, Insightful)
Pretty stupid, IMHO... because all the thief has to do is sign the card ... before he goes on his shopping spree!
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:"See ID" does NOT work. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Completely. (Score:3, Insightful)
And I'm more than happy to shop at stores that require ID. They get less chargebacks and pay a lower percentage to the bank, so they can charge me less for what I buy.
Re:"See ID" does NOT work. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Almost useless (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I wish they wouldn't look at my signature. (Score:3, Insightful)
What I don't understand is why the US is not moving toward a PIN based system. France did this a decade ago. The UK is finally in the throws of doing this.
Phil
Re:Almost useless (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Almost useless (Score:3, Insightful)
It's all about making more money. Nobody does anything for the actual progress or requirement of it anymore. I mean banks QoS goes down [e.g. fewer hours, more rude tellers] but the fees go up?
I could see if the QoS was going up as well.
Essentially the capitalistic workforce has nothing todo with doing a good job.
So you live your life in mediocrity trying to value your life by the amount of monies you accumulate.
Go humanity!
Tom
Re:Almost useless (Score:5, Insightful)
The the pin is not stored on the card. You can copy the card as much as you want, but it won't be of any use as long as you don't have the pin.
The pin could probably be read with interference, but that'd require some hefty equipment. That's not something your ordinary wallet-thief will have access to.
Re:Almost useless (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:added crime (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Almost useless (Score:3, Insightful)
see, thats why (Score:4, Insightful)
1)the signature is an agreement to pay what you charge, nothing more. The security aspect was added on later as a 'feel good' measure.
2)They(the stores) make more money this way. it's quicker, which means more purchases.
The credit card bean counters look at this every year, they make more money not pissing off the stores then they would with more secure transactions. Now, if somebody comes up with a secure way of doing business, that doesn't slow the transaction and the customers don't mind the credit card companies would implement it.
Re:Almost useless (Score:5, Insightful)
You should keep your life savings in bonds, funds or stocks, not savings accounts. An indexed fund gives, very roughly, about 10% annually.
Get out of my lane! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Almost useless (Score:2, Insightful)
A wireless webcam, card copier eqipment and a cheap ATM front mockup will set you back a measly few dollars. Its one of the most common ways to copy a card, read the CC#, the pin, all in one swipe.
Often enough the victim doesn't know he/she's been had until the bill shows up or the card company calls about strange charges.
Depending on the quality of the ATM front or the cam setup, the scam might be discovered in a day or two. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesnt. If so they move to another area, as discovery of the equipment doesn't have to leave any trace back to the villains what so ever.
I dont really see how cameras and card copiers couldnt let you easily forge a signature as well btw.
Since thousands of people are being fooled by this, how exactly can the card companies/banks effectively argue that its your own damn fault?
Re:Almost useless (Score:3, Insightful)
The "guy who was outraged" was 100% in the wrong - he lambasted the BMV and the front-line employee for doing EXACTLY WHAT THE CREDIT CARD COMPANIES TELL THEM TO. They are only interested in processing transactions, and to do that they need to abide by Visa's rules in this case.
Probably makes no difference. (Score:4, Insightful)
I can sign your name if you tell me I can, so there is no fraud if I sign your name without fraudlent intent.
Your signature doesn't have to be related to your name in any way; as long as it is something you use as your signature its valid. This goes back to illiterate persons "making their mark" to sign documents. You don't even have "a signature" you have as many signatures as you want to. For instance I have an added glyph I use on some kinds of documents, it cannot be represented in any current character set and it will botch any OCR scan. It has its uses... but it only shows up on some things.
The "signature card" on a bank account and the place to sign on the back of a credit card exist solely to act as arbiters; they exist only to define what your signature is on that account. In this respect the signatures involved are simple, anonymous key matching operations.
I can sign my name to where yours should be, but if I do so with the intent to pass-off and say that what I wrote is supposed to be your signature, it doesn't matter that the letters spell out my name, by presenting the document as something signed by you (the authorized party etc) I am engaged in fraud.
If you mean to defraud it is fraud.