Israeli Army Frowns on D&D 984
Big Rob found us a gem of a story about the Israeli Army frowning on D&D players. Apparently '18-year-olds who tell recruiters they play the popular fantasy game are automatically given low security clearance.' I especially enjoyed the pictures of D&D players with swords, as generally the only thing in my hand during D&D is soda and/or swiss cake rolls.
I'm thinking that a few generals should meet up with Jack Chick and have a good long discussion about the evils of role playing.
There's a good reason (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:5, Insightful)
but if IDF says that people who indulge in fantasy games, as a statistical group, have personality traits that make them a lower security risk, then I am inclined to believe them.
"They're really smart. They must know what they're talking about."
One possible characteristic not mentioned in TFA was: People who role-play might be more inclined to game the system - definitely not a desirable personality trait to have in personnel deployed in sensitive positions.
WTF? "Game the system"? If you play D&D you realize that "gaming the system" gets you in Shitsville with the game referee (the much maligned "Dungeon Master"). So if anything, D&D players are LESS inclined to "game the system".
I can't decide if you're an innocent clueless asshat or a troll. And I'm a fairly discerning reader. So hats off to you!
Real swords? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:There's a good reason (Score:5, Insightful)
If you are going to make broad generalizations about D&D players, I'll go ahead and say are you sure you want a bunch of pasty white never been outside dice rollers carrying around guns in a battlefield not taking orders because they are "thinking for themselves?".
Nope, but dont worry, this former D&D player was all state, all conference, MVP, etc in HS and college waterpolo. Not all D&D players are your typical generalization. Nor are all of them imaginative.
You got it wrong (Score:0, Insightful)
Gaming the system means thinking out-of-box. Believe me, you don't want that in a soldier.
D&D players are creative thinkers (Score:2, Insightful)
I'd think they would want them... (Score:3, Insightful)
Apparently I must be mentally unbalanced though, so don't trust my judgment on that one. I'm all detached from reality and stuff.
Re:You got it wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:5, Insightful)
There was a point in time where ECT in mental institutions was commonplace because it was endorsed by the American Psychology Association.
Today, we know that ECT only helps certain cases of clinical depression, and is used only in extreme cases when no other solution exists.
If you go further back with the same association, they used to perform labotamies. Do you think that practice is done today?
We need to be critical of experts. You cannot always agree with experts.
Bad translation! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Roll the dice... (Score:2, Insightful)
Is anyone else bothered that all the pictures are of LARPers and not actual D+D? I think this shows the general misconception of what D+D is. If you are unsure of what D+D is really like I have a video for you.
"attack the darkness"
Re:It Could Be Worse (Score:3, Insightful)
This movie has to be, despite being horribly scripted and acted, one of the most damaging things done to roleplaying. What's really funny is that Hanks' real-life counterpart didn't go nuts, but in fact had a gay liason and made up the story.
I've had a very Fundie Christian relative who started blabbing off about how roleplaying was letting Satan into your heart with all that magic and fantastical creatures (geez... anybody read the Bible lately). I've seen articles saying my hobby is Satanic.
Are there fucked-up roleplayers? You bet. I've played with one real whacko who used to keep a list of the right and wrong things his players did, and when it hit five wrongs, he'd have his character try to kill their's. But you're going to find lunatics in any walk of life, whether hobby or occupation.
Profiling on the wrong level. (Score:2, Insightful)
The people I think they are attempting to target are the casual gamers. These are the people who obsess over what color their character's eyes are, what they're wearing, etc. If that's what makes them happy, then more power to them. However, if the Israeli military feels this type of person is less attached to reality and thus a liability, then I could see a justification in the actions they have taken.
Power gamers, on the other hand, are concerned with winning. That is what drives them. They don't care if their "character" is represented by a detailed miniature, or a piece of pocket lint. Making optimal decisions and maximizing their chances of success are key. I would think the military would want to target these people for recruitment. Instead, they are being lumped together under the same label as the casual gamers.
I suppose I take issue with the actions themselves being singled out and not the motivations behind the people taking the actions.
Stands to reason.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Howard Hughes and the CIA only hired Mormons for the longest as they had proven to have the highest, personal, integrity.
And if you're concerned about someone trying to "see what they shouldn't see" then don't hire an AD&D player (D&D? -- that's what was out before AD&D when I was a kid) or a slashdotter.
This stuff ain't rocket science folks....
What they really mean is too strong a personality. (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Games Help to Think Unconventionally (Score:1, Insightful)
Please, oh please, can I come to the alternate reality you live in?
Re:Role playing (Score:4, Insightful)
Roleplaying is a normal everyday occurrence, its part of learning about anyone who isn't yourself or any job you don't currently do (like the Model United Nations groups in High School).
The only difference here is that these people wield maces and fireballs in their fantasy world instead of bayonets and bazookas. I have to wonder if these people had chosen to play an Avalon Hill wargame, if they'd have been given higher clearances.
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:4, Insightful)
I see some issues here. How many politicians "game the system", yet have never played D&D? Ted Kennedy probably never played, but he's one of the masters, you have to be if you can drive drunk, drown a girl and not lose your licence and face a few year's hard time like he should have. The same goes for car salespeople. Lawyers.
Also, IDF has a big name attached to them, but that doesn't make their claims necessarily true.
I can't say much as I've never played a collector card game or RPG.
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:2, Insightful)
Give me a fucking break. "They are wise, therefore they can do no wrong".
One very important point about statistics: You can always set the premise before gathering the data, and then find statistics to back up your premise.
The IDF works with some of the worst relgious zealots in the world. I think this is the primary reason for discouraging D&D-- the game deals with religious ideas which are foreign. That is forbidden among many fundamentalists.
This is certainly the situation among many fundamentalist Christian communities in the US. You're from Redding, so I assume you would know this.
Don't get me wrong. Isreal has a right to survive and defend itself, but the ruling bodies of Isreal are filled with religious zealots. Zealots cannot be trusted-- no matter the religion.
Depends on the level (Score:3, Insightful)
LARP != D&D (Score:1, Insightful)
I've done both, BTW, I'm just saying, and I'm in security, so Bah!
Re:There's a good reason (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Right (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem is that the experts, in most cases, aren't. They may be well-studied, but the more you focus on studying something, generally the less experience and up-to-date knowledge you have on it.
It's like a theory of academic relativity, or something.
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:4, Insightful)
But everyone on slashdot seems to think that you should always disagree with experts.
Re:Right (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Too idealistic for military life (Score:2, Insightful)
Seriously, losing a leg, then deciding to take a close quarters combat course and return to the war zone is a pretty non-linear solution.
What's amazing is that the US has a military tradition of out of the box thinking that goes back to War of Independance. We have our failings to be sure, but a lack creative military solutions has NEVER been one of them.
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Being in the military is, by necessity, to be part of a team and the team has to come first,
D&D, and most other role-playing games are exactly the embodiment of this. They are about teams achieving things, and it is not uncommon for one member to make a personal (or ultimate) sacrifice so that the team can achieve their goal. What they seldom have however, is a strict hierachy. This is a good thing in that the team learns to work together through willing co-operation and pooling creativity and knowledge. In practice, this is not how a [modern Western] military unit operates. Instead, they condition soldiers to obey orders and not question.
If there is any basis for the Israeli army's bias other than ignorance, then it is the creativity and ability to think away from the official point of view that is the "problem."
Just too many D&D'ers must ask themselves what is the alignment of my army, and come up with the answer Lawful Evil.
Re:Role playing (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:You got it wrong (Score:1, Insightful)
I don't have much to contribute to this site in the critique obscure code, but I did play D&D, AD&D, Gamma World, GURPS, and cyberpunk 2020. Furthermore I spent 2 years in the Headquarters company of the 2/75th Airborne Ranger regiment in Ft. Lewis WA as a mortar gunner.
All military doctrine is built on absolute discipline, and the better the unit the more severe the discipline. Do you think truck drivers are subjected to the same discipline as SEALS? No, because 1) they would die 2) their jobs don't require it. Good combat units have as much or more rigorous discipline than bootcamp, and the only flexibility allowed is in the 2 minute warmup prior to an 8 mile run. If somebody has a neat new idea, here's the procedure: you mention it to your immediate superior, get laughed at and/or disciplined, and then proceed in doing things the tried and tested way. For the love of god, I tell you these guys still spend half an hour every day polishing their non-waterproof boots because the officers don't trust any footwear that's seen less than 30 years of war.
I was gonna add: if the Israeli army doesn't want weirdos who have a skewed sense of reality in their ranks, then they probably shouldn't accept fundamentalist religious types who believe the earth is 6000 years old or that god will send you to hell for all eternity for eating a goat, what with cloven hooves being unclean and all.
Re:It Could Be Worse (Score:3, Insightful)
Can't a guy poke fun at idiotic stereotypes without somebody actually thinking I seriously believe that all people who play D&D are male and will never feel the warmth of a woman's touch?
Seriously, are you really that incapable of parsing written English? Do I need to start add little disclaimers to everything I write?
DISCLAIMER: although the author (AAiP) questions your critical reading skills, under no circumstances does he mean to suggest that you are unintelligent, too literal, foolish, ugly, simple-minded, easily-duped, gullible, dense, or otherwise sub-par in any respect. For the purposes of this and future interactions, AAiP will assume that your social and intellecual traits are within one standard deviation of the mean, based on humanity as a whole, excepting those cases where your social and intellectual skills are substantially higher than said mean. Though one could infer that the tone of this disclaimer is decidedly snide, AAiP assures you that it really isn't. He just wants to make sure he's being absolutely, positively, perfectly crystal clear on this, beyond any suggestion of an inkling of a hint of a trace of a shadow of a doubt. Really. You're swell.
Re:There's a good reason (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember that you are still responsible for actions you take that are illegal or immoral, even when you are ordered to do so. There seems to be a lot of that going around lately.
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure, you can build an unrealistic combat monster this way, but a good GM will penalize players that do that by putting them in situations where they need non-combat skills to succede.
Nail, meet hammer. (Score:4, Insightful)
Being impressionable and in a sensitive position means you are ripe for the harvest in a counter intelligence situation. You will be much easier to convert to the opposition's cause as it will be much easier to have you see the issue from their point of view and develop sympathy for their position.
A flexible mindset isn't automatically an overly flexible mindset; it's just that much more prone to changes over time. A changed mindset and set of beliefs can manifest as treason.
So, in a way, the IDF is doing those soldiers a favor. They protecting Israel from an increased likelihood of treason, and they're protecting those soldiers from themselves.
Yeah, it's kind of a control freak thing, but it *is* a military organization.
Re:It wasn't a problem in is US Army in the 80's (Score:2, Insightful)
No, they still want motivated and intelligent volunteers. This is the IDF we're talking about, not the US Army. The last time the Army thought they could save money by sending idiots into battle with full-auto weapons, we lost a war.
Re:Roll the dice... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:There's a good reason (Score:1, Insightful)
A world of make-believe... (Score:3, Insightful)
Um, let's say someone believes that his country has a right to occupy a piece of land because 3000 or so years ago his ancestor obediently offered up his son to be a human sacrifice because a voice he heard in his head told him to. The voice in his head later rescinded its instructions to kill the guy's son, because he showed that he would value the approval of the voice in his head over that of a little boy one of his wives dropped off for him. This of course showed that human sacrifice was a-okay with the people of time, of course, but that's a talk for another time.
Okay, and then we have the guy who obtained great favor with his voice in his head when he offered up his virgin daughter to the mob for rape and/or murder if the would leave the three guys (who he suspected to be angels) alone.
Then we another guy who listened to the voice in HIS head which told him to clear town with his family because the voice was fixing to burn everyone alive because they were pissing the voice off. A wife looked back as they were leaving, the guy says, and was turned into a box of Morton's salt. At least that's what he told her kin when they asked where the hell she was.
Then we have the guy who heard a voice telling him to build a boat, put two of everything in it, and wait out a world flood which later no one else remembers happening, like, say, the Chinese, having been around for 4000 years or more.
That's reality-based community, not like them D&D fantasists.
You wouldn't want people who had strange ideas about reality in the ranks of your specialist armed forces.
Re:It Could Be Worse (Score:3, Insightful)
You're generalizing. Video games are very popular, but so are collectable card games, comics, tabletop roleplaying, miniatures gaming (D&D Minis are HOT on eBay right now, and kids are buying most of them for "warbands"), etc.
I suggest you think of kids as very small adults, and then imagine the generalization, "these adults these days aren't interested in any OS that doesn't have a "Start" button."
Re:Right (Score:3, Insightful)
Make no mistake, I support the existence of Israel, but as a non-Christian, I find this sort of theological motivation more than a little frightening.
Re:There's a good reason (Score:4, Insightful)
Every person Ive known who was seriously into D&D has had just that, severe emotional problems. In college I was dating this gorgeous chick who was big into D&D, MUDs, LOTR, etc. It was a novelty for about a month... then it became appartent she was a complete basketcase using MUDs to only spend a few hours a day in this reality. Id ask her how her day went and shed blather on about the dragons in her games or something... She met another D&D addict and started dating him at the same time I was pressuring her to back off the MUDs and concentrate on things like paying the rent... you know what they say about getting inbetween people and their addictions.
Second story, I was hiring my replacement at my last sysadmin job ts a university research lab. The decision came down to a qualified guy, and a less qualified guy. The less qualified guy got the job due to some nepo/favoritism. First thing he does after I make his accounts is install MUD clients and ask "do you play DND?" I knew he was toast right there. After a months training, last thing I do on the last minute of my last day is run a L0 backup (the user accounts are worth hundreds of thousands if not millions). First thing the guy does the next morning, erase all the user accounts. Suprisingly they overlooked the ordeal, but after two months he was gone just the same.
I have had several other friends as well who had pretty bad problems, who played D&D. I think D&D attracts emotional problems like GTA attracts those violence nuts.
Re:It Could Be Worse (Score:3, Insightful)
As a person married to a Catholic, I find the above generalization ludicrous, and of the same kind of rudimentary thinking as that which leads people to say roleplayers are devil-worshipping lunatics. Whatever Christianity's sources (and it's a lot more complex than simply an offshoot of Judaism), there are a lot of good Christians out there, and to malign them because of those who act badly is pretty fallacious.
As I suspected, you actually have not the foggiest idea what Papal Infallability is. It is not a general notion where ever word a Pope utters is undeniable truth. It only applies when a Pope is speaking ex cathedra. Now I totally disagree with all of this, because I'm an atheist and I think the Church's theological teachings are bunk, but I think it's always important to actually understand what you disagree with. What you've done, though you clearly hate Christianity, is throw up a rather classic Protestant distortion of a basic tenet of Papal theology and authority.
Or to put it in simpler terms, you are spreading a lie.
Re:There's a good reason (Score:3, Insightful)
Current US doctrine calls for highly trained professional warriors. You don't get that with "Obey any and all dumb orders and don't think". They *WANT* people who show initiative. I've been a defense contractor for 20 years, and without exception, the people I've dealt with -- from E-1s up to 2-stars -- have been intelligent, capable people.
Re:You got it wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
I work with a retired Air Force Captain who has the same perspective. As he explains it, either the officers ordered the troops to mistreat the prisoners, or they didn't have control of their troops. Neither is excusable for an officer in the armed forces.
The corollary being that the soldiers who are taking the blame for it are, in a way, scapegoats, because the liability goes up the chain and somebody is getting away with it.
They want very particular types of initiative, in particular the initiative to take command of a situation when necessary. What they do not want is people who question authority.
I did some research a while back on the differences between eastern and western military doctrine in World War II. One of the keys was the the Soviets, for various reasons, allowed very little command flexibility in their ranks. Operations were planned to extremely minute details and all subordinates were expected to stick to the plan no matter what (one big reason was they had poor communications infrastructure to change the plan dynamically).
The west, in contrast, had less detailed plans, and relied on their officers adapting their tactics to the facts on the ground as they appeared.
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:You got it wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
Funny you should mention that. Orthodox are not subject to the draft.
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Now, if you have any concrete examples to the contrary (regarding the training of the soldiers), I would like to hear them, but for now, it just seems that you're making this up (or heavily extrapolating).
As with many things, a lot of it comes down to your own view, reflected in the choice of words. It's like the difference between cult and religion depending on which side you're on.
And with Army induction, you could call it training or brainwashing according to your opinion.
First off - killing. This is not something that comes naturally to the vast majority of people. It takes an extraordinary amount of pressue for most people to go as far as murder. To bring these people to the point at which they will kill requires extensive conditioning. My source for this was a talk given by a US Marine in a documentary in which he cited casualty statistics from WWII and modern psychological testing that came out with about 2/100 people being "natural killers." Clearly something radical has been done to the completed soldiers if they are now nearly all capable of killing (not that there may not be psychological trauma afterwards).
Now as to the actual techniques of how this is achieved, I'll offer the following examples. Note that this is only an outline of techniques that on "the other side" would be considered brainwashing.
Firstly, links to existing social values must be severed.
Secondly, links to the new social values must replace them.
Common techniques used by cults, professional interrogators, etc. that are in common with the army are as follows:
Hopefully, it can be seen how these support the above goals of bringing the recruits personal values into line with the army's and fostering dependance. Of course, the graduate of this, will see it as pride in the army, serving a greater cause or simply having endured it and "become a man." Of course, regardless of whatever has been gained, the recruit has traded in some measure of his own ability to measure the value of things and accepted the value system of the organization. As I said at the start of this, whether you want to regard it as brainwashing or training, is up to you. If you consider however, that psychologically, the exact same process and attitude change is gone through by an Al-Quaeda soldier in Afghanistan (by incidentally, the US Army trained Osama bin Laden) just as with a US marine, then you might feel a certain cognitive dissonance if you think of them as different. In both cases, recruits come to obey the orders and beliefs without questioning them.
I remember a kid who was half-way through boot camp, telling me gleefully how he was on whatever his jargon term was for latrine duty. He took pride in enduring the punishment - doing it by hand! He was one of the best examples of the effectiveness of these techniques I'd ever met. He was boasting about having to scoop out shit with his bare hands.
Oh come on, do you even know how Israeli soldiers are trained, or are you just relying on your political views of Israel?
You know nothing about my political views at the time of posting, so please spare me irrelevant and baseless personal
Re:It Could Be Worse (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't think anybody is saying that she does represent the sum total of Fundementalist Christianity. However, you have to admit, there are a number of Christian groups out there, particularly of the more conservative, fundementalist nature, who have some pretty strong opinions on things like roleplaying. Jack Chick isn't some sort of isolate, though he, like the grandma mentioned, may be closer to the far end of the spectrum.
I think the old joke about how Jesus would be treated if he were alive today is applicable here.
Mainly the fact that it appears that the IDF has some prejudices against roleplayers that don't seem to be founded on fact, and resemble prejudices among some Christian groups here in North America.
Re:You got it wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry, you're confusing self discipline in personal details with conformation to doctrinal procedures. As an avid D&D player in High School, a West Point grad and an ex M1 officer, I can tell you that if you can't think on your feet and figure out a new way to skin the cat, you won't survive long in mobile armored warfare, let alone dismounted urban warfare.
Recognize also the level you were working at and your particular unit. You didn't get to see how creative your battalion commander had to get to handle his missions with the incredibly lean Ranger force.
If you still doubt me, go back to some of the officers you admired most and ask them about operational and tactical flexibility. Get comfortable, you'll be there a while.
Re:You got it wrong (Score:3, Insightful)
- General George Patton Jr
Re:Too idealistic for military life (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:IDF has smart people working for them ... (Score:3, Insightful)
America isn't the only so-called civilized place with rightwingnuts who feel threatened by seculars and people who treat myths as myths and not as "historical documents". If anyone here is the risk, it's the guy who actually believes in things like demons and angels, as opposed to the player of a fantasy game who treats them as game elements.