Attracting Women Into Computer Science 1174
Frisky070802 writes "U.S. News & World Report has an article about attracting women into Computer Science. '...That sense of isolation and inadequacy is one reason the number of women earning computer science degrees in this country has plummeted over the past two decades--with women dropping from 37 percent to 28 percent of graduates--at the very moment their presence in other scientific and engineering disciplines has soared. 'You look at the national statistics,' says Rick Rashid, senior vice president of research at Microsoft, 'and you just have to be appalled.'' It describes how some companies have even started summer camps to attract high school girls into high tech."
Summer Camps for Teenage Girls (Score:5, Interesting)
We all know how unattractive CS people can be, especially the ones getting red in the face over frequent online arguments about KDE vs. Gnome.
To imagine these hard-up saps actually trying to pull off a frickin SUMMER CAMP to ATTRACT some TEENAGE GIRLS into the sorry world of the code monkey, why that's the most cock-eyed, half baked plan I ever heard of!
Maybe when this fails to play out (and it will, seeing as how anyone with a brain can see right through the scheme), perhaps they can regroup and try to trick these girls into the backs of their vans, with some candy bars.
sheesh. this is why there are marketing departments, people. You just can't let the code monkey crowd interact with the public.
Figures seem high (Score:3, Interesting)
So? (Score:2, Interesting)
But really, having read the article, I wouldn't rule out what we already know. Women are smarter. Computer Science just isn't as lucrative as many, if not all other booming tech industries. So there are less women studying CS, and still many studying other technical course. What of it?
If I knew what I know now (all of it could have been known without my degree : ( ) I would have done something else and just taken CS along as a side order....if I was a woman, alas
Single sex classes (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course, studies has shown both that mixed sex classes are better, as well as single sex classes... It is probably best to offer both alternatives.
the ratio is better balanced.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Well gee (Score:5, Interesting)
My sister and I were both given Legos when we were young. We were both given dolls too. And it happens that I'm now into computer science, while she's baroque music. So even when given the same opportunities as kids, grown up by the same parents at the same place and going to the same schools until we were 17 year old or so, we have completely different interests now.
So, either we were born with differences, be they related to gender or not, or there are just too many factors to be taken into account through one's life and any individual signal we pick and try to analyze is completely undistinguishable from the overall noise.
Re:Figures seem high (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Figures seem high (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Single sex classes (Score:5, Interesting)
It struck me as a very wise point of view to have. And it's one I think applies here. You can go with single-sex classes, sure. But once these women graduate, they're going to be in environments where, quite often, they are the only women in the department or on the shift. If they can't take that, well, it's better to find out before you dump $40k+ getting an education in a field where you won't be working.
Er wha? (Score:5, Interesting)
Stop throwing around generalities in an attempt to build a straw man.
In College, the smart women were all math majors.
In what College? When? Have any numbers? There were hardly any female mathematicians at my University, the ratio was around 85% men to 15% women.
I ten to agree with the other posters - despite what everyone would like to believe, man and women *are* different. They like different things. For some stimuli different areas of a mans brain react than a woman. It is a fact that men and women's brains have evolved differently over the ages. We simply do not know enough about the brain to speculate at this point whether on average one brain is more optimized to certain types of tasks than another, although evidence would support this (women's communications centres are larger, men's spatial-relationship centres are larger).
SO, given all this uncertainty, how about instead of trying to exert undue pressure on one gender to fill a certian role, we just let people do what they want to do?. I would never, ever, ever become a PR consultant. I can't stand the type of work it is ( running aorund, chatting it up with people, lying for a living). However, that does not mean that I hold PR people in a low regard or that I do not respect their intelligence, to the contrary, they're some of the smartest people around I wager (look at the shit they get us to buy!).
So why can't the same be said of women? Why is it if a woman does not want to enter a science or computer sicence field they are being discriminated against?
Re:Why is this important? (Score:3, Interesting)
Maybe the real reason is (Score:3, Interesting)
Maybe because they are smarter and are going where the money is?
Usurper_ii
Re:WTF (Score:3, Interesting)
Ignoring the discrimination of women means to waste a lot of potential. That, by the way, is the most important reason against gender based discrimination in the first place. 50 % of the best students you haven't even found yet!
Re:Well gee (Score:5, Interesting)
Tell me that again when you have kids of your own.
I used to think a bit like you do. Let me tell you - having your own kids, and watching other family members and friends have kids, really opens your eyes. Boys and girls are very different, virtually from day one. In fact I think the male/female characteristics are probably more pronounced in young children and mellow as they get older.
There would be a lot of happy parents around if they could influence the behaviour of their children as much as you think they can. I can just imagine it...
"My little boys used to run around screaming and fighting all the time, but then I brought them Barbie dolls and showed them how to cook and now they're calm and spend all day helping me around the house! Parenting's so easy!"
Re:WTF (Score:5, Interesting)
These figures matter because women have long been discouraged from going into science for no reason other than the fact that society thought women weren't smart enough or tough enough to work in science.
These figures matter because when you have some professions that are chock full of women and others that are devoid of women, it's easier to discriminate against women. Compare salaries for teachers and nurses against those for software engineeers. It's easy to say "oh, it's okay that nurses make 60% of what software engineers do, because there are lots of nurses, and nursing is less technical and less important." Well, there's currently a huge shortage of nurses, and an overabundance of software engineers. If you think it's less technical, you don't know much about modern nursing. The nurses I know save lives on a daily basis, and that would seem more important by any measure than writing, debugging, and meeting with other people about code.
These figures matter because I like women. And not just to look at and fool around, but to work with and talk to and socialize with. The best projects I've worked on (best here = most productive, highest quality code) are the ones where I've worked closely with a woman. Same was true in college. For whatever reason, there's just been a really good, effective dynamic there in terms of helping each other to understand requirements, come up with good designs, and build solid implementations. But the group I'm in now has zero women out of thirteen programmers, and the one I was in before had two women out of twenty-five programmers. Getting more women into software development would be a good thing.
It just isn't important to monitor such trivial things.
It is very important to monitor and learn about such things. The reasons behind these changes tell us useful and important things about our industry, and about society. It could turn out that there are legitimate reasons for the change in the rate of women entering computer science. Or, it could turn out that schools and businesses are discouraging women from entering CS, and that discouragement might rise to the level of unfair gender discrimination.
One obvious reason to monitor such things is that there's a history of discrimination against women, and we want to make sure that we're not falling back into that historical pattern.
As long as you can do your job why should it matter if you have a penis or a vagina?
Exactly. So, why does it seem to matter?
Maybe there's a difference between the genders that just makes men enjoy the challenges that software brings, and makes women all want to go into nursing and teaching. Maybe it works out that way completely voluntarily, because we're all enlightened and obviously everyone is treated equally and without gender discrimination. Let's just accept that for a moment.
So we've got this fairly interesting gender difference staring us in the face. It's so strong that it accounts for a 4:1 ratio of men:women in computer science and probably other engineering fields, and a 1:4 ratio in teaching, and a 1:15 (or something like that) difference in nursing. Wouldn't it be important from an academic point of view to study this difference? What is it that drives men into some fields and women into others?
Alternatively, there's some outside force, something other than innate differences between those of us with a Y chromosome and those with a double dose of X, that has at least some impact on the matter. And I can't think of any kind of outside force that wouldn't qualify as gender discrimination.
If there is unfair discrimination, then hiding your head in the sand and saying "why do we even bother monitoring silly things like this" is the thing that allows it to continue. Trying to understand it, and to make sure that you and your own attitudes are not part of the problem, is the only way to begin to end it.
Let's not forget Ada Lovelace. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:HOWTO (Score:2, Interesting)
How about this one? [fastseduction.com]
-dk
Maybe women are just smarter about career choices. (Score:3, Interesting)
It seems to me that women are just more pragmatic about career choices. With all the news about computing jobs going overseas and jobs being cut right and left in the industry, maybe it's become apparent to women that other engineering fields are better choices.
I won't argue that computing has been portrayed as a boy's world and that it can be hostile to women, but then lots of other fields have been hostile and that didn't keep women from fighting their way in. Look at the medical field, law, and other engineering disciplines for examples.
Being good at computer science requires a significant commitment from most of us. There are some who are so good that they can breeze on by, but for most of us, it's a constant effort to stay current with the technology. Computer science is still probably one of the most self-taught of potential careers. In order to be successful you have to commit to the same hours as a new lawyer at a high priced law firm, but without nearly the same pay. It's not the best choice if you want a balanced life.
I would not be at all surprised if we see these numbers turn right back around when the economic situation for programmers gets better. Perhaps this is just a case of women being the wiser gender.
It is worrying though? (Score:2, Interesting)
In writing this I have tried to think up a number of arguements to try and explain this. However all these arguements can easyily be swept aside with simple counter-examples. One of the strongest counter-examples I was thinking about was mathematics where the population split in students is about 1:1 between men and women which shares many of the same logical displines and grounding as C.S.
Basically I can't suggest an arguement that shows that men have a better preposition for computers than woman. Actually I think that many of the talents that are required by a good engineer are more prevalent in woman than in men.
My personal belief is that there is 2 fundamental socialogical problems here.
The first is the stigmatization of computers within society. Just consider the stereotypical image of the "computer nerd". Now considering women pay far more attention to their image than men, then this negative press about computers has stopped many women actually getting into computers. (Remember : Its one thing to be seen working with computers, its something else to get into them).
The second has been the constant low number of women in C.S. as compared to other subjects. Over the past century or so the female ratio in most subjects has increased until it has become 1:1. In short, no particular subject stood out as being more intimidating than the other, when considering this as a reason. However since its creation as a subject C.S. has had a very high male ratio probably for no better reason that it was just boys with toys getting into a field that held a world of fasination.
Need to think more long term (Score:2, Interesting)
This aptitude is enforced right from early childhood with the increased cuddling of baby girls and the buying of barbie dolls right through to all the ads telling them to spend their teenage allowance on cosmetics and other items in preperation for their 'need' to find a husband and start a family in their early 20's.
Yet most female recruitment drives seem to think they can undo this lifetime of enforcing a aptitude of "technical stuff isn't for girls" in a few weeks or less.
Ofcourse its not going to work, not that I can think of any method that actually would work. Would need a smart person.
The rewards would be large however, I have that if such attitudes were gotten rid of, the benefit to the economy would be the single biggest positive effect ever noticed, millions of extra workers and all.
I attended one (Score:5, Interesting)
The first one was called Summerquest and was at Eastern Michigan University. It was for both genders and covered a wide variety of topics. I was there for the Creative Writing part. I don't think anyone from that group is earning their living through writing...
The second one was called Summerscience for Girls, later, I believe, renamed, though I could be wrong. This was obviously just for females and included groups on Physics, Chemistry, etc. I was in the Physics group. I truly do believe that more of us ended up with an interest in science. In addition, I heard quite a few stories from girls who really had been discouraged by teachers and other adults from science and math, and I think that this summer program may have given them a bit more strength on that.
The third program I attended was the Michigan American Legion Auxillary Girls' State. Essentially, it was a thing for learning more about politics, and many of the girls who went were ones that were very involved in school politics and the like. While some of them were very bright, it was definitely not true of all of them, and I enjoyed it considerably less than the other two, where participants were sent based on academic record. It also totally turned me off any idea of going into law (I was my "city" lawyer) or politics.
I, personally, have not had a problem with _teachers_ or _parents_ discouraging me from science and math. I've been exposed to computers since I was four (ah, the TI 99-4/a), and always told I can do whatever I put my mind to do. On the other hand, I have certainly felt discouraged by peers, while I was in high school, at any rate, with the typical ridicule for getting good grades, being "too smart for my own good", and reading too much.
Despite the fact that I went to a college (www.rose-hulman.edu) that was only allowing women in in my class, the class of '99, I did not feel that there was anything wrong with my being there. I feel very little pressure of that nature here at work, despite being a programmer on a defense project.
A really real girls opinion... (Score:1, Interesting)
My dad was a Cryptographer for the US navy, so there have always been computers around my house. I have known how to use them, and knew a little about programming when i got into school.
However, freshmen year I looked at the ratio, heard people saying "It will be hard" and there is alot of numbers involved and yadda yadda, so i majored in Political Science (I am joining the military after college, and wanted something that would help me pursue a career in the intelligence field)
Basically i couldn't stand the major, the classes were unchallenging, the professors opinionated and openly biased. I found because of a mutual interest in gaming, and anime, hanging out with all the traditional "geeks", and, since a couple of them were the "kde vs gnome" debating kind, i learned alot from them. I started asking them questions, and looking over their shoulder while they did their homework, and then at the end of freshmen year i took the one programing class allowed for non-cs majors
It was visual basic, and i got an easy A in it.
That fact, along with the support of my friends led me to change major the next year.
so, long story short, I'm a junior now, and i like where i am. Since im in the military also, it was easier to adjust to being in the minority, but i must admit it is strange to be the only girl in a 60 person lecture hall (one prof called me out, saying "the odds are good, but the goods are odd")
I personally think that all this talk of how girls cant learn math as well is BS, but it does influence girls when they pick their major... the idea is "you will be better at x and x and y"
its an uphill battle to prove them false, the only thing we (current girl cs majors) can do is be visible after graduating, and hopefully we will finally prove it wrong.
Why? (Score:2, Interesting)
2 - CS isn't as attractive a major across-the-board anymore. The luster is long gone from "computers" as a general career. A CS major in 1990 meant a six-figure entry level job. Today it doesn't even mean a job. The computer has become a commonplace and regular work tool rather than a mysterious arcane item requiring the constant supervision of a skilled master. An IT degree is more than enough for most real-world techs these days. CS and Systems Analysis are now, in terms of post-collegiate careers, closer to Physics or Mathematics degrees than any of the concrete-bound disciplines like IT. The less mainstream appeal, the less diversity from the hard core.
3 - Also there's the white elephant of socialization that no amount of hand-wringing is going to change. Females in the society are still in large part conditioned away from hard sciences at an early age. As geeky careers fade out of the mainstream limelight and become commoditized this should change, but it'll be really (generationally) slow going.
4 - The "boys' club" mentality of traditional corporate America is also a roadblock, one that the typical open-minded liberal nature of engineers (who have been married to corporate America) dovetails with to create a new situational environment where females cannot use the old method of female advancement, sexual predation on males in the hierarchy, to their advantage, but are also not "raised up" to be equally considered along with men. A smart girl will fail, and so will a slut, and so will a slutty smart girl. There's no way to win as a woman unless you just get lucky.
Re:Well gee (Score:4, Interesting)
Now that I have a BS (in CIS) and have been working a few years, I do notice most other women I've worked with in IT really don't have the driving interest in technology I do. It's more like just a job. Hence I bond more with the geeky guys where we can chat about the new video cards, OSS, or whatnot.
Really you can't force a love of technology on anyone, male or female. If they're into it, they'll find their own particular area. Not giving them the exposure or serious chance is the worst crime.
Re:You can't "nuture" away "nature"! (Score:5, Interesting)
Why do women start in the industry, but then are pushed out at a higher rate than men. It may be just a genetic predisposition, but on the other hand, maybe they aren't treated fairly.
We have a young woman who started in our department about 18 months ago. She has a degree in MIS and wants to do project management. She is bright, responsible, and reliable. But she has been passed over for promotions twice because she is also attractive and married to an attorney, so the higherups just assume that she is only working here until she gets pregnant, why bother training/promoting her?
Her drive and thirst to succeed are being crushed because she isn't being taken seriously by managment. Guys who have come in after her with fewer skills are given opportunitys she won't get because they fit the mold.
I see this as the problem. She WANTS to work in the field, but isn't being given the same opportunities as a man.
Re:HOWTO (Score:3, Interesting)
When the hell we would actually talking about real technichal problems then? Where would the main strength of open source development, the straight to point, no bullshit communication (I'm not talking about slashdot now) be left? The strength of open source is, that we don't have to care about personal vanities of managers or women and get straight to the point. And flame over it, short and brutal and efficiant (with notable exceptions like vi-emacs). And then get over with it.
Re:Well gee (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:HOWTO (Score:1, Interesting)
Now as for the government lumping everyone into the "white" category, no I don't think that's right. Caucasian cultures have been and will continue to be oppressed just the same.
Re:Sexism in Computer Science (Score:3, Interesting)
Your argument is, "Well sure, environmental factors could contribute to the dominance of chess by men, but it's too blatant for environment to be the only factor." When in fact we don't know how strong a determinant it is. All you're saying is that you personally find it unlikely that such a strong effect could be completely explained by upbringing.
I find it unlikely as well, but it's still a bit of a non sequitur.
There are real differences between men and women, and it's not just a product of socialization. But no matter what natural inclinations women in general have towards a field of study, allowing artificial social barriers to one gender's success is completely wrong.
Re:Aim a little lower.... (Score:4, Interesting)
Naw, that will never work! We need a HOWTO that tells us not to use the word "bitch"! No, wait, we don't need that, because women suck at math and don't want to be programmers anyway, and it's not sexist to acknowledge this obvious fact!
Damn. Anyone who wants to study why women feel unwelcome in computer fields simply needs to parse this thread and see who is actually in the field themselves. I think they'll find the answer right there.
Re:HOWTO (Score:3, Interesting)
I knew one of the writers of this HOWTO. She was very intelligent and an excellent computer scientist. I've been telling people for years that they need to read this document. And read it again. And again, and again, until they get it through their thick skulls that there are problems with sexism in computer science that really shouldn't be there, especially considering that we are supposed to be _scientists_.
As for me, I don't think I've ever had these problems. Maybe I'm wrong, but I treat everyone equally, to the best of my ability (I can't help it; I'm an egalitarian). The one thing I do is take the keyboard away, but I do that to men and women alike, and that's mostly a problem of my own impatience. I'm not a good teacher, but I'm a good fixer, so people ask me for help a lot. Since I don't want to spend all my time fumbling with telling someone how to do something, I show them how. It's something I need to work on, but then I wouldn't have any time to get other work done, and my job description is not "teacher".
So go read this document [tldp.org]. Don't laugh at it; it's one of the few things in life that should be taken seriously. And don't be cynical about it (ie "this speaks VOLUMES about why there are not more women involved in IT"); try to learn from it and stop being a pompous know it all for a change.
Re:Aim a little lower.... (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Aim a little lower.... (Score:3, Interesting)
That aside, you're still right. Two wrongs don't make a right. Men and women could stand to conversationally interact more qualitatively
As a women in Software Engineering..... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:HOWTO (Score:1, Interesting)
Borg Babes - seriously? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Aim a little lower.... (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Don't... (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:It Happened to Me! (Score:2, Interesting)
Not that I was there, but if it was me, I might have been shy, or already had a "favorite" partner/friend and/or didn't want to get ribbed for being "too" friendly, or figured there were an even number of gals and -- especially if you were friends -- why *wouldn't* you want to partner up w/each other?
None of those reasons make any sense, but that's just high school and some of us had no clue. Sorry.
Women as "canaries in the coal mine" (Score:4, Interesting)
Given the current state of computer science employment, I'm not sure that I'd encourage anyone, regardless of gender to go into this field. Given the instability in employment and flat job market, the only reason to go into computer science is because you love it.
I went to a talk by a woman professor at the UC Berkeley engineering department. She pointed out that women act a bit like canaries in a coal mine. When they start to disappear, the field is getting toxic. I think that in may ways we have a toxic profession. Some of the best jobs are now with the government. This is a bad sign. It is a sign of an unhealthy job market and profession.
In addition to the current job market we have a profession that is infamous for its age discrimination (look at empolyment statistics for engineers over 40). I doubt that it is an easy field for women to work in. I suspect that there is gender discrimination as well. This is why you see women gravitate to large companies like IBM and HP, or to government jobs. These organizations at least attempt to actively work against gender discrimination.
So it should not be a surprise that while there are now notable women in mathematics (like Ingrid Daubechies), we are not seeing as many women in CS. I suppose that at least we can pat ourselves on the back that our field is better than Wall Street, where humans in general and women specifically are treated badly.
I never thought I'd be one of them but... (Score:1, Interesting)
I have a friend who worked in the game industry for many years on titles like C&C and CS. One day I told him I was deciding between Biotech and Computer Graphics for graduate school, and he just flat out told me:
"But you don't know anything about graphics!"
Yeah he's just a geeky guy who doesn't know how to communicate well...but constant put downs over the year when I was deciding didn't help. I had at least one depressed bout triggered by his insensitive/overcompetitive comments. One time I was so mad at him I yelled, but all he said was "you're so serious sometimes!" and went back to telling me all about the latest game he bought.
Bad pay, bad management, bad hours...and now my close friend of 7 years was being a total geek-jerk. I wondered what it was like in an industry that was 99% males who were, in the worst case, all like my friend (if not worse)
I chose biotech and never looked back
Re:I find that insulting (Score:1, Interesting)
Stop pulling the "I'm a victim" mentality crap and start behaving like an adult yourself. Not everything is about you.
You want respect where you work? Well, bully for you - men do as well. And when we don't get it, we don't get to ascribe it to being "discriminated against" - we just try harder, or move on to a place where we will be respected.
Stop the feminist "there's a glass ceiling everywhere" bullshit and stop being a hypocrite -you ask for respect, but your comments certainly indicate you have none for the men you've worked with - I'd say that makes you more sexist than most of the people (men or women) I've worked with.