Plone 2.0: eWEEK Reviews, Raves About OS Software 189
securitas writes "eWEEK Labs' Jim Rapoza reviews open source Plone 2.0 Web publishing portal / content management software and raves about the Zope/Python-based system. He liked it so much it garnered an Analyst's Choice award, beating out a commercial portal suite, Traction's TeamPage 3.01, reviewed in the same issue. The Plone 2.0 release was mentioned a couple of weeks ago on Slashdot."
Open source, once again... (Score:3, Insightful)
I have no firsthand experience with Plone but would be curious to hear more about it.
Re:Seems easier to sneak a spy into closed source. (Score:2)
There's a reason why there are DOD and NSA standards for security. They make sure *any* code is audited and checked repeatedly before it can be used in any kind of sensitive context. It doesn't m
The most important feature... (Score:4, Interesting)
LDAP (Score:3, Funny)
Re:LDAP (Score:2)
Which, Plone or LDAP?
Dave
Re:The most important feature... (Score:2)
What they didn't say is that for most 24/7 commercial support services you never get an answer or you get the answer "that feature didn't make it into the final release, you'll have to upgrade in two months if you want the fea
Bust out a checkbook (Score:5, Insightful)
and hit the plone developer list they can get all of the support their little hearts desired. Not only that but they would likely be working with someone that actually wrote it instead of a helpdesk dork telling you to reinstall.
Re:Bust out a checkbook (Score:2)
Re:Bust out a checkbook (Score:3, Informative)
Agreed (Score:2)
Need I say more?
Re:Agreed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The most important feature... (Score:5, Insightful)
They get zero bullshit, instant-response support, day or night, because that's what they pay for. I solve technical issues, sure, and I take great pride in my work. But I develop relationships with my problem clients, and work hard to make them happy. I communicate with them in a way that lets them know that it is a personal affront to me that their product is not performing exactly as they expect, and they know that they have an advocate within the company that fights through bureaucracy for their needs long after the sale has been made and their account manager has moved on to chasing the next dollar. Our development team works very closely with us and if we identify an issue as being a top customer support, it's fixed in the next release. If that's not soon enough, we'll get the engineering schedule re-arranged to produce a patch for our customer. Our shortest-time support rep has been with the company for four years, and at this stage, perhaps only the director of engineering has an equal understanding of the product. We cost a lot, but we're worth it.
Now, my little rant in defense of commercial support aside: I agree, there's many positive things to be said for open-source software. But it's an investment, something that must be embraced. You can't just install a single open-source app in a mission critical environment and not be sure how it will be supported. There needs to be either a project-wide commitment to F/OSS software, with staffing brought on that can completely supports it, or you need to only use F/OSS tools that are so widespread that they are well understood, and free support is ubiquitous (Apache). It doesn't make sense to keep a highly trained cadre of admins on staff to take care of one application when a very specialized commercial support rep who has the director of engineering's cell phone # is a dial tone away. The difference between a few $80k sysadmins and a few $30k support contracts is substantial enough to catch the eye of more than one CTO, especially once you take employee turnover into account. Why not make that someone else's problem?
Again, this all changes depending on the situation. Obviously, if that previously mentioned hypothetical $80k admin can replace five commercial applications that would cost $30k apiece in support contracts, he's a bargain. And we all of us know of many shops that manage to do this successfully. We also all of us (at least those who've spent a few years in IT) know of many shops that do not.
So, I guess where I'm going with this probably ill-advised 2:30am rant is this: Commercial support can be an extremely important thing at times like these (2:30am), and it's not something you should discount so quickly. A lot of us are very good at what we do.
Re:The most important feature... (Score:5, Insightful)
And what makes you think this conflicts with open source in any way? I make a living off Plone support (and training/development), and see no difference from a "commercial" product. Except that we can do anything given enough time, since the software is open and in a very transparent language (Python).
If you want to call us in the middle of the night, you can - but it will of course cost you. Just like with commercial software. Don't think that commercial software is the only software with good support, because it's not.
Re:The most important feature... (Score:2)
However, you also have to admit that you're the exception, not the rule.
Re:The most important feature... (Score:2)
Perhaps I've missed a point somewhere, but isn't this exactly what fahrvergnugen just claimed? You both seem to be in agreement that paid support for a product is a good thing, so I don't see the problem.
The grandparent comment was claiming that commercial support wasn't as important since standard open source developer support (unpaid for) might be just as good in different ways.
Re:The most important feature... (Score:2)
that's not a negative (Score:2, Insightful)
well, well???? Isn't this supposed to be one of the two ways to make some clams with open source software, ie, this is a job going begging now?
make money with open source by:
A-using it directly to help make and sell and service your widgets
B- offering custom service for the application software
No current direct 24/7 support = someone reading the article who might be under or
raves? (Score:5, Insightful)
Is software really such a topic that someone (besides a marketing guy) would rave about it in an objective review? I mean, I've had some good software packages that were easy to use (relatively) and did the job well (compared to alternatives), but they weren't revolutionary and didn't make me run through the streets naked, Archimedes-style.
Any person who comes to me foaming at the mouth, "raving" about any type of software is going to have me taking a rather large grain of salty goodness.
except linux. Because this is /.
Re:raves? (Score:5, Insightful)
take care.
No, really. Zope rocks. (Score:3, Interesting)
It's one of those epiphany moments when you start using it and developing for it. After Apache, Perl, PHP, ASP and all the other point tools. The thought is "Fuck me, *this* is how it *should* be done".
Zope on it's own rocks. Plone on top is the icing. It's all free anyway, runs on every platform including Windows so you might as well try it for yourself.
More opensource CMSs (Score:5, Informative)
Re:More opensource CMSs (Score:4, Funny)
It's good to see that Plone and it's kin remain solidly anchored in the tradition of giving cutesy, meaningless, names to commercially viable open source software.
Re:More opensource CMSs (Score:5, Interesting)
thanks for playing
Re:More opensource CMSs (Score:5, Funny)
sorry, couldn't resist
Re:More opensource CMSs (Score:2)
They are relatively meaningful and at least have the novelty of being short and not pure nonsense.
Re:More opensource CMSs (Score:2)
Re:More opensource CMSs (Score:2)
Re:More opensource CMSs (Score:4, Informative)
Ours does, and it's cross-platform too (based on Mozilla's Midas extension, available since Moz 1.3). You can check it out here:
http://www.sitellite.org/ [sitellite.org]
In fact, we're not the only cross-browser WYSIWYG editor in town either (ours is already built into the CMS however). Another I know of is here:
http://dynarch.com/mishoo/htmlarea.epl [dynarch.com]
I'm sure there are others as well...
The big benefit we've had so far with it is that a lot of our users come through web design shops, and design shops have traditionally been Mac shops. With Mozilla support, we can offer something our customers can use even on Macs.
Cheers,
Lux
Re:More opensource CMSs (Score:2)
WebGUI [plainblack.com] has cross-platform WYSIWYG and is cool enough to allow you to "plug-in" multiple WYSIWYG editors. Users can select which WYSIWYG editor they want to use by default in their profiles.
It's 2004, people. Cross-platform WYSIWYG editing should be the standard, not exception. If your CMS isn't flexible enough to handle multiple editing plugins you should examine your architecture (not that I'm accusing Sitellite of anything. I know nothing of your CMS. )
Check out WebGUI [plainblack.com]. You can learn quite a bit from
Re:More opensource CMSs (Score:2)
If your CMS isn't flexible enough to handle multiple editing plugins you should examine your architecture (not that I'm accusing Sitellite of anything. I know nothing of your CMS. )
I agree. Our WYSIWYG editor is actually just an add-on like any other, that's simply distributed with the software itself and pre-configured. We used to use Richtext (richtext.sf.net I think?), but it wasn't very actively developed, and when Moz's Midas features first came out, there weren't any open source editors to plug
WYSIWYG editors (Score:2)
False. OpenCMS [opencms.org] has such an editor, provided that you use MS IE. OpenCMS is released under the LGPL. Furthermore, I understand that WYSIWYG editing (for OpenCMS) is available in Mozilla, too, provided that you buy a proprietary, third-party software.
Re:WYSIWYG editors (Score:2)
> He didn't say that others don't have the feature; he was saying that he thought
> it was the case. Stop being such an ass.
Well, his thought was false. OP is right.
You need to loosen up and understand that's it's OK to be corrected.
Re:More opensource CMSs (Score:2)
Re:More opensource CMSs (Score:2)
So the plone page begins with whining about patents, and the feature list boasts about a 'click and run installer' (so what), that it is 'standard', 'open sourc
Raving Techie? (Score:5, Funny)
That said (Score:2)
RHEL 3 support? (Score:3, Interesting)
RHEL 3 packages Python 2.2.3. Is that high enough for it?
Re:RHEL 3 support? (Score:3, Insightful)
moving it later is a simple directory copy.
Re:RHEL 3 support? (Score:2)
Thanks. Great advice. I love nice and clean. When we upgraded our redhat servers from 7.3 to RHEL 3 it was a helluva lot of work due to all the customizations and stuff added to 7.3 over the years. RHEL docs said to do a clean install, no real upgrade option.
I'm going to give this a try. I've been wanting to give my users some sort of content management system to head off any interest in sharepoint or something like that. We
Re:RHEL 3 support? (Score:2)
http://www.byte.com/documents/s=8880/byt1
And they deserve even more (Score:4, Informative)
Re:And they deserve even more (Score:2)
Re:And they deserve even more (Score:2)
Great code (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Why does a CMS need whitespace? (Score:2)
I.. I'm sorry. (Score:4, Funny)
I just can't take it seriously... I look at a headline like "Plone 2.0: eWeek Reviews" and I go "oh, so Aphex Twin's released a new album then?"
Yet another CMS comparision (Score:5, Informative)
Advantages of Plone (Score:5, Interesting)
* Plone works *out-of-the-box* and is easy to extend and configure.
* Plone provides excellent workflow support. A Workflow is the editorial chain used to manage documents. Creating new workflows is easy.
* Plone is easily extended with external components ("Products" in Zope/Plone parlance). I run Plone with Zwiki (a wiki extention) and CMFBoard (forums), making for a very rich intranet site with loads of possibilities. Check out the The Collective [sourceforge.net] or the Zope website [zope.org]
* Plone comes with Archetypes [plone.org], which is a framework which allows for the relatively easy creation of new content types (in Python)
* It runs on Zope which is a very powerfull Application Server and Content Management System. Zope has got a rather steep learning curve, but its documentation has been improved and it has got a very supportive and vibrant user community.
More advantages (and for the laymen) (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:More advantages (and for the laymen) (Score:3, Informative)
It's a Content Management System for running "dynamic" web pages, which have a standard format throughout and a series of articles that comprise the site.
A typical use case is, actually, the website you're reading right now. Slashcode is a form of CMS--it provides layout, content management, and a structure for revising and approving content.
Re:More advantages (and for the laymen) (Score:2)
There's actually a Slashdot lookalike built off of the ZOPE base (t
Commercial isn't the opposite of open source. (Score:5, Insightful)
How long it takes for people to realize that you can make money with open source so it can be commercial. Commercial software isn't the opposite of open source. Non-free or closed is.
Not the smartest thing they could've done... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Not the smartest thing they could've done... (Score:2)
Oh wow, you read a book. You're totally 1337 d00d. How in the hell did this get modded up?
I'd like to take this opportunity... (Score:5, Informative)
...to plug another newly-open-sourced CMS I'm the lead developer for:
Sitellite CMS [sitellite.org]
Written in PHP, unusually flexible, very strong add-on framework, free add-ons, including a search add-on based on Apache Lucene (no PHP Java extension required though), and HIGHLY usable by non-techies. Cross-browser WYSIWYG editing is built-in, and it's designed for non-techies to use, but real techies to code in. Like any proper template system, standards compliance is up to you however (although our XML-based templates require XHTML or XML output, so we do encourage at least ;)).
There's also a commercial version, and commercial support available (this was the qualm that the reviewer had about Plone) at simian.ca [simian.ca]. We also sell commercial add-ons (gotta eat too, right? ;)).
Anyway, </plug> -- just trying to scare up some more interest, never hurts to try. :)
developer community? (Score:2)
Yes, but does it have a large, active open source developer community? The community site seems kind of dead. Where is the CVS site? Are OSS contributors required to license their changes for the corporate version?
Without an active OSS developer community, it matters fairly little what license it comes with.
Re:developer community? (Score:3, Informative)
The community is building rapidly. We're nearly 200 registered users strong now, and the site has only been going since the beginning of February. We're up to 600 unique visitors a day too. We're doing what little promotion we can, but we're a 2-person company/project, so time to get the open source word out there is pretty limited.
However, with those stats, I wouldn't call the developer site
Re:developer community? (Score:2)
Why do you drag philosophy into this? Why are you getting defensive? I just wanted to know what your policies are because that tells me how likely you are to succeed.
Also, a commercial version is a good thing for the community as well.
You say that as if it's an established fact. But many of the most succ
Re:developer community? (Score:2)
Re:developer community? (Score:2)
To allay your reservations about our dual-licensed project at least, the two versions are functionally and visually identical. In fact, the commercial version is offered simply because a GPL version has some restrictions that are incompatible with some commercial users' intentions (making their changes closed-source). This presents an opportunity for us to offer the same thing to open source folks and to closed source folks alike, while making at least some money offering the same software to the latt
Re:developer community? (Score:2)
"the two versions are functionally and visually identical."
That is very nice indeed. It could be me (as in: me not spending enough
Re:developer community? (Score:2)
I've been meaning to read the MPL actually, since I've heard that that's the case with it.
Cheers,
Lux
Re:developer community? (Score:2)
Why do you drag philosophy into this? Why are you getting defensive? I just wanted to know what your policies are because that tells me how likely you are to succeed.
Um, I don't believe I was being defensive, at least not intentionally so. Sorry if it came across that way.
And I wasn't trying to drag p
OSX installer... (Score:2)
Remember to remove the folder in
*whew!*. that was ass. Not going to mess with it again.
Zope is the avantgarde in CMS /Appservers (Score:4, Insightful)
And I'm glad to see Zope and one of it's major products, Plone, getting this recognition. I consider Zope vastly superior to any other available Application Server. It's suitable for rapid and large scale developement likewise. If you want to know how the future of databases and high level programming of custom apps will look like, check out Zope.
Plone Support and Accessibility (Score:5, Interesting)
I recently came back from the Plone Sprint in Austria. For those not familiar with sprints, this is where you get a bunch of developers in one place for a week to concentrate on development.
Virtually all of the people there (there were ~50 attendees) ran their own small businesses (myself included, Netsight [netsight.co.uk]) that used Plone -- mostly providing installation, customization, and support. Most of these companies *depended* in Plone for their livelihood.
What struck me the most was how business focused all of the developers were. This is something that really sets Plone apart from some of the other OSS projects out there. All of these people are making real dollars on developing this software, and hence *need* to have a business focus otherwise their businesses would fail. As technically great as many OSS projects are, many of them don't have the business drive to succeed.
The second thing that really struck me was a demonstration by a blind woman from the local Institute for the Blind. Plone is known for being very hot on accessibility, but this was just amazing. The woman had half a day training, and was then able to enter content, add metadata and take it through a workflow -- all using a braille reader and text-to-speech software. And what is even more amazing, is that she doesn't speak any English, she was relying on the internationalization features of Plone to deliver a German version of the UI -- including all the alt tags and hidden things that screen-readers rely upon.
--
Matt Hamilton (aka HammerToe)
Netsight Internet Solutions [netsight.co.uk]
Real production Plone/Zope experience (Score:2, Interesting)
We're just about to ship a in-house web application to 50,000 users. We did a significant amount of the work using Python 2.3.3, Zope 2.7 and Plone 2.
These tools made it possible for us to get some visually nice things out quickly, but they are a maintenance nightmare. To be able to leverage Plone 2, we had to update to a more recent version of Archetypes. We have to use 11 different components, of which there is no real support for 3. The people who have d
Re:Real production Plone/Zope experience (Score:4, Insightful)
Summarized, you won't get away without either spending some time learning how to work with the system or paying for some training or consultancy. Just like with any other complex system.
Plone for an OS Knowledge Management system (Score:3, Informative)
I usually use Java (or Common Lisp) for development, but Plone offers so much infrastructure out of the box, that the decision to use it seems right. (Although I have been experimenting a lot with OpenCMS, which also looks very good).
-Mark
E-Commerce Support (Score:2)
But how efficient is it? (Score:3, Interesting)
Specifically, nearly all are written in PHP. I have nothing against PHP in general -- it is a fine language for some things.
But it is not inherently persistant -- code has to be parsed and any objects recreated for every HTTP request. I've been watching projects like Xaraya and Drupal, but they are alower than they should be. Last time I tried Xaraya, it was positively glacial. Drupal is somewhat better.
A few of us had a similar problem a while ago when trying to develop a Linux knowledge-base type application. A complex OOP solution in PHP absolutely killed performance. It didn't work.
I've tried the Zend Optimizer with Xaraya but wasn't too impressed.
I think that CMS's should be self-contained application servers. Any objects created should be persistant, not needing to be re-created for every HTTP request.
I have a wild idea floating around in my head about a C++ CMS. I don't promise anything, especially since I'm not super-strong in C++. But I'm in the "tinkering" phase and maybe something interesting will come out of it. I guarantee it would be the fastest CMS on the face of the earth.
Python/Plone/Zope could be an OK platform, but I'm still a bit concerned about performance. It seems as though applications that should reasonably written in scripting languages, like little desktop utilities, are written in C/C++, and things that run on performance critical servers are written in scripting languages, when they should be written in C/C++.
Re:But how efficient is it? (Score:3, Interesting)
Incidentally though, certain parts of Zope, e.g. the security code which is exectuted many times on every re
Re:But how efficient is it? (Score:3, Interesting)
By "cache managers" do you mean content caching? That was one of my ideas. The application server would cache, for example in a Slashdot style application, the entire tree of comments for recently viewed stories. That would make browsing the comments do-able without a single DB hit! Does Zope do something like that?
And how is it memory-wise? Could it easily fit in an inexpensive virtual server that gives you 256MB RAM (or less)?
I used to commerciall
Re:But how efficient is it? (Score:3, Interesting)
The caches are very flexible and the RAMCache allows you to cache 'bits' of a page. E.g. we often dynamically build navigation for a site,
Re:But how efficient is it? (Score:3, Interesting)
http://www.danga.com/memcached/
Note: I have no affiliation with memcached, danga, or livejournal -- I just think it's a really sweet
Plone/Zope/Python is fast on Opteron (Score:3, Informative)
C|net's builder.com covered Zope last year too... (Score:2)
Re:Huh: My humble opinion (Score:3, Interesting)
Once you look into it, you'll understand that stuff like Zope really needs stuff like Python. Python really is that great and well worth learning.
It really is more powerfull. And a lot easier, IMHO, to extend than PHP.
Something else I do like about Python is that IMHO it is becoming the the facto scripting language in (at least) Linux. You can use it to create Gnome APPS, there is now a pretty good mo
Re:Huh: My humble opinion (Score:2)
How in the world could you come to the unusual conclusion that python is becoming the defacto scripting language in Linux? Scripting is about getting repetitive things done quick and dirty. How could anyone who has used python claim it applies there? The nature of object-oriented languages of any kind is that their encaps
Re:Huh: My humble opinion (Score:2)
In fact, it's so quick-and-dirty that I sometimes just write something straight from the interactive prompt - especially for those annoying do-a-weird-renaming-operation-on-a-bunch-of-files style problems.
Re:Huh: My humble opinion (Score:2)
Also the test I would like to perf
Re:Huh? (Score:5, Interesting)
> care?
Glad you asked!
I've also been writing software for 20+ years (God, is it really that long?) and Python is the nicest language I've come across for many types of task. No, it's not the "ultimate" language, but it's a very good fit for a lot of problem spaces.
Key features:
- it's very easy to learn (20-odd keywords, which is very few compared to most languages). In particular, any reasonably competent programmer will pick up Python and be coding well with it in a remarkably short time. Moreover, you can actually keep the entire language in your head; you don't have to resort to having language references at your desk, which makes a big difference when it comes to speed of delivering a solution
- it runs on almost any platform
- it discourages "individual coding styles"; most competent Python programmers would come up with substantially the same code to the same problem. This is unbelievably useful when it comes to supporting other peoples' code, or even your old code
- OO support is both unobtrusive and very complete. Among other things, this makes "design by contract" a much easier goal to achieve, which goes a long way towards making "software project management" an achievable target rather than a tautology
- it's a great general purpose scripting language. It's very nice to use the same language for scripting as for your "real" coding
- it's a "batteries included" language. Although you have to use external libraries in many cases, the base set of libraries that come with Python cover a very wide set of technologies
- it's mature enough that there's very few surprises in the language itself. When you have a problem, you can be pretty sure it's in your code rather than a compiler or library bug. Another benefit of this is that your Python code has a strange tendency to work first time; I spend very little time debugging my Python code compared to most other languages
- although I write Perl code faster than Python, in productivity terms Python is quite extraordinary. I would write Python code 5-10 times faster than C/C++/Java/C# code, so I get to a working piece of code that much faster
- Python is very good at talking to other code. I've found it's fairly easy to get Python talking to libraries written in C, and you can actually compile your Python code (using Jython) and call Java library code natively
Finally, I'd have no qualms recommending Python as a prototyping language for almost any commercial app I've worked on. You may need to go back and rewrite it in another language later for security or performance reasons, but Python is the best way I've seen of creating working prototypes quickly.
Re:Huh? (Score:2)
These two articles convinced me, a long time ago.. (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=3882
Re:These two articles convinced me, a long time ag (Score:2)
Re:These two articles convinced me, a long time ag (Score:2)
Shrug.
Those are great articles about Python. Thanks. (Score:2)
Those are great articles. Thanks.
Python as a first language [oreillynet.com]
Why Python? [linuxjournal.com] by Eric Raymond, who wrote The Cathedral and the Bazaar. I also like this article because I think Perl is a mess and I am glad to see someone else saying that.
Comments about Python and Zope. (Score:3, Interesting)
Also see the comment below: Python is great. Zope is well-written and badly documented [slashdot.org].
From another comment below: PHP is horrible -- Experiences of Using PHP in Large Websites [ukuug.org]
Eleven more reasons why Python is wonderful [slashdot.org], from a comment below.
From a comment below: Major problems with Zope and Plone [slashdot.org].
Correct link to Nuxeo's Collaborative Portal Server [nuxeo.org]. Also, in French: CPS [nuxeo.com].
No active Zope development community [slashdot.org]?
Python Resources. Why Plone? (Score:2)
More:
Python Resources [slashdot.org]
Why Plone? [plone.org]
Re:Huh? (Score:2)
Python is pretty similar to other scripting languages. It shouldn't take an experienced programmer any significant amount of time to learn enough Python to extend Plone (just like it shouldn't take an experienced programmer
Re:Huh? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Huh? (Score:2, Interesting)
"24 or so years" and "PHP - the language that seems elegant"... That's the best example, that even if you do something for a long, long time you can still be very, very wrong [ukuug.org].
PHP is not elegant and has a very poor object model. Also, it is pretty impossible to implement some of design patterns in it because of that. PHP has inconsistent API, PHP has a long way to go before it could be considered a serious language. Popul
Re:Huh? (Score:2)
I don't use PHP "oop(s)", because it never made sense to me to have a scripting language - interpreted at that - do that level of complexity. While I'm coming across arguments that are beginning to persuade me to start using object models, at this stage I'm a strictly procedural programmer - don't get me wrong, I abstract everything I write - sometimes to the level where colleagues shake their head - but it also means that my code works, is fast, has few bugs and i
Elegant (Score:2)
I find Python very elegant though in a rough hewn sort of way (for more refined elegance try Haskell). PHP in contrast f
Re:Huh? (Score:2)
I suppose that "Don't feed the Trolls" also applies to moderators
Re:Bah! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Bah! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Commercial support matters? (Score:2)
Re:Commercial support matters? (Score:2, Informative)
We help other people on #plone in our free time and we don't get paid for it. We like to help and most people are amazed about the help they get on the mailing lists and the irc channel.
We are helping newbies to start with plone and we are helping novice to experts with precise problems. But we are not able to take you on your hand and guide you from the beg
Re:Commercial support matters? (Score:2)
Once again, expect to support yourself, unless you're prepared to do what's necessary to make friends with people like this, or as another poster suggested, you hire a professional who can provide support without playing silly games.
I suspect this stupid feud will continue for as long as I choose to evaluate plone - until eventually I reach the p