Jet-powered Nausicaa Glider Project 346
SuperElectric writes "As reported on slashdot.jp, Opensky is a project led by media artist Kazuhiko Hachiya to implement a working, jet-powered version of Moewe, the vehicle (pic) that the heroine rides on in "Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind". They've successfully test-flown (.mov, 8.6MB) a 1/2 scale model, and are moving into phase 2, which includes interviewing for test pilots (women only!). Can anybody knowledgeable in experimental aeronautics speculate on how doable this is? While it's not designed for general production (riders must be less than 50 kg/120 lbs), this would certainly beat Segway any day!"
It's a cartoon (Score:5, Funny)
Don't pay any attention to the stacks of Sailor Moon and tentacle porn DVDs under my bed!
Re:It's a cartoon (Score:5, Informative)
she wears white pants. very similar to stretch pants. aerodynamics and all.
Re:It's a cartoon (Score:3, Funny)
go outside otaku
It's shilashudotsu (Score:3, Funny)
Re:It's a cartoon (Score:5, Informative)
*sigh*
Try the Nausicaa.net FAQ [nausicaa.net]:
Q: I heard that cuts were made in "Warriors of the Wind" to cover Nausicaa's bare bottom. Is it true?
A: That's a nasty rumor which just won't die. Even in a recent article by Reuters, she was called "a bare-bottomed heroine on a glider" @_@; Nausicaa *is* wearing pants. That's not a mini skirt she is wearing. It's her coat. Notice that the men in the valley are dressed as Nausicaa is. And they are not Scottish. ^_^
[way offtopic] (Score:3, Funny)
Jet-powered Nausicaa Glider Project (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Jet-powered Nausicaa Glider Project (Score:5, Funny)
To hell with MP3s... (Score:2)
HOLY CRAP! (Score:2)
I'm almost more inclined to believe it's all a CG put-on.
Looking at their server (Score:2, Funny)
Oh man... (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, off to join my buddy Wile E. Coyote, walking off cliffs and holding up little signs and waving bye-bye before I fall and that sort of thing.
Re:Oh man... (Score:2, Informative)
That's what intense physical training is about
Re:Oh man... (Score:3, Funny)
Harden up (Score:3, Insightful)
You better have the reflexes of a barn swallow (Score:5, Insightful)
That flying wing sure isn't going to. Just the pendulum instability from the offset between CG and CL (that's center of gravity and center of lift for you 'dotters who never study anything but web engines and FPS technique) is going to drive you bats, and each change in thrust or drag is going to result in pitch moments. If designed badly, these can be fatal; if you have any doubts about this, you should look into the history of "interesting" airplanes like the original Mignet HM-14 Flying Flea [valkyrie.net].
There is a very real possibility of any such craft having serious PIOs (pilot-induced oscillations). Have them in a situation where you have no time to recover, and you can lose the airframe along with the crew.
While I am a firm believer in the value of Darwin Awards, I thnk that such a machine should not be flown with a human aboard. No matter how utterly fucking kewl all those anime fans would think it was, their refusal to recognize the distinction between cartoon physics and reality is not worth someone else's life, or undamaged brain, or functional spinal cord. It's appropriate that such a machine fly with only a dummy aboard; if it cracks up, you've got a hilarious photo-op rather than a tragedy.
Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)
Why do you think... (Score:3, Insightful)
Grow up. (Score:3, Informative)
A large number of the losses were caused by pilots (barnstormers) trying to show off. The Wrights and others were constantly trying to figure out how to prevent this before bad press killed aviation.
Now we have enough experience in aerodynamics and control theory to say something *is* dangerous, and you get in a huff about some guy's "attitude" for pointing out the dangers.
Dreams and experimentation belon
Re:You better have the reflexes of a barn swallow (Score:2)
Re:You better have the reflexes of a barn swallow (Score:5, Informative)
Flying wings, even well designed ones that don't have the problems you identified, have 3 instabilities that are more problematical than on conventionally tailed planes.
The first is a lack of pitch stability. To be stable they must have a reflex curve on the trailing edge (or similar) to give a downforce at that point so that as lift is lost approaching a stall the wing pitches down (no longer held up by the reflex). Without this they stall viciously.
Unfortunately the short lever given by the lack of length makes this reflex very sensitive to small changes and the wing 'nods'.
The 2nd problem is directional instability, even with wing tip fins the plane does not fly in the direction it is pointed.
The 3rd is more serious and is conic instability. When the wing banks and turns the outer wing is faster than wing on the inside of the turn. This gives more lift to the outside wing which then causes more banking. This can happen to tailed planes but with flying wings there is insufficient control leverage to avoid going pear shaped and winding up in an inverted spin.
Hang gliders cope with these because they have very large pendulum stability.
Re:You better have the reflexes of a barn swallow (Score:3, Interesting)
Control (Score:2, Interesting)
Assuming that the person on top of the craft would truly be the pilot and that the mass of the pilot is not insignificant to the overall mass of the plane - any control system used would have the very fun task of having to differentiate between forces exerted by the pilot's hands/body to remain balanced on the craft and the forceful inputs (ie lean left to turn left) required to control the direction of the craft.
Imagine holding on for dear life, getting a hand cramp, leaning over to distribute your weigh
Re:Oh man... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Oh man... (Score:2)
- The 1/2 scale jet didn't have a 1/2 scale doll with 1/2 scale weight riding on the top.
- As mentioned earlier bugs and stuff will be a big problem they should mount a camcorder at least and get an operator/rider perspective before live test flights (plus I wanna see the video on-line!).
- Speaking about Wile E. Coyote, I remember the toons where he rides stuff similar to that and cannot turn fast enough and ends up smashing into a wall or something - I wouldn't want to see real p
Re:Oh man... (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.petworks.co.jp/~hachiya/aso_photo/in
They are the ones near the end.
If you think flying is fun, try landing! (Score:2)
MOV (Score:5, Funny)
Re:MOV (Score:5, Informative)
I'm crazy but what the heck:
Site: Site [fibersnet.net]
Movie: Movie [fibersnet.net]
Doesn't matter (Score:5, Informative)
Slashdot.jp?? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Slashdot.jp?? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Slashdot.jp?? (Score:5, Funny)
If we figure them in, they've been around for about 22 years. So we have (8*6+2*1600+1*22)/13=251 years old. Quite a bit younger than your proposition.
Re:Slashdot.jp?? (Score:4, Funny)
to wit: This sight (Slashdot Japan), use was started on 2001 May 28th as the Japanese edition of Slashdot which is the popularity sight of US.
Slashdot is news for the high-tech mania which is started in 1997 by Rob "CmdrTaco" Malda and Jeff "Hemos" Bates and the sight for chatting. It is the mammoth sight which starts hitting 3000 ten thousand page views in month, but to tell the truth most is supported by many volunteers and enthusiastic ???? and the user which repeats comment.
It has such enlightening articles that you just can't get in the states. Like:
The mouse which designates "the swallow" as motif
Amendment plan such as virus compilation crime and the criminal law Code of Criminal Procedure which includes mail log 90 day retention
Comet probe Rosetta it launches, or the distance where is long to the comet
I love the fish. [altavista.com]
Re:Slashdot.jp?? (Score:3, Interesting)
Sure most of the comments are incomprehensible but it seems better than last time I checked a year ago.
You are filled with Spendid Disernment (Score:2)
Happy are times
when posts are not strange funny!
Score, it becomes two!
I am so moving to slashdot.jp ;)
Re:Slashdot.jp?? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Get a 5 digit user id! (Score:2)
Re:Get a 5 digit user id! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Get a 5 digit user id! (Score:2, Insightful)
Got you beat! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Get a 5 digit user id! (Score:2)
Um.... Regis Philbin?
10 lbs. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:10 lbs. (Score:2, Funny)
Re:10 lbs. (Score:2)
Hmm?
I think the Segway would win (Score:4, Insightful)
In shorter: wider (figuratively) audience == good.
Crazy anime fans (Score:5, Funny)
Cool... (Score:5, Funny)
Women only? (Score:5, Informative)
which includes interviewing for test pilots (women only!)
Actually, I remember the FAQ saying that women are preferable, weight and all :) Though I'm not that proficient in Japanese, and babelfish spits out mostly nonsense, so might have missed something. Don't forget, Nausicaa wasn't the only one able to fly such a glider well...
P.S. Please stop with those underwear jokes! See the movie(and watch what people are wearing), RTFF at nausicaa.net and keep in mind the messed up colours, too.(OT: read the manga tooRe:Women only? (Score:2)
But I think it's more in keeping with the project anyway. I'd say there must be some hotshot Japanese snowboarder chicks with the balance and coordination to fly that thing. Marketing is soo much easier when the test pilot is an extreme hottie. And to all the naysayers, I ask you, how say is a motorcycle compared to this? Answer is not much worse: Crash a ZXR at anything more
They are very picky about pilots (Score:2, Informative)
(1) Females are strongly preferred.
(2) Weight limits of 35kg (77lbs) and 50kg (100lbs)
(3) Age limits of 20 and 35
(4) Two pictures: one which shows the face and another which shows the whole body.
Sounds more like an audition for a movie or something...
Re:They are very picky about pilots (Score:3, Insightful)
All they would need to do then is put her in costume and give her a pet like Nausicaa's Teto, and they'd be all set :)
It will fly (Score:5, Informative)
Would _I_ fly it? (assuming I was the size of an "Anime babe") I would have to say "Maybe." If it had a recovery chute, it would probably be safe enough - and a real hoot to fly.
Though laying on TOP of a running jet engine doesn't seem like fun. Worse than piloting an old style racing sidehack...
Re:It will fly (Score:3, Insightful)
Noise of a jet that close to your head,
An Intake that close,
ditto for hot exhaust gasses
the thought of injesting foreign objects and having a T-wheel cut me open is not fun.
I would rather have the wing above, and not spoil the view, if I am going to lay prone.
What is wrong with a BD-5J with fold up wings as seen in James Bond? At least he can sit like a human.
Re:It will fly (Score:2, Informative)
Btw, I believe there was a lengthy discussion on the mailing list about the computer-controlled possibility, not coming down to much, though...Anyways, I don't think it's _supposed_ to be eas
doable (Score:4, Funny)
Well, all they really need to do now is find a midget to fly the thing and its done!
Wait, Nausicaa? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Wait, Nausicaa? (Score:2, Informative)
No no no.. that's Surly Naussican
Good try, though!
Re:Wait, Nausicaa? (Score:3, Funny)
"Ooooooooooo, Mythos!"
KFG
Patrick Stewart in Nausicaa (Score:2, Interesting)
Not for the american market :) (Score:5, Funny)
Landing? (Score:5, Insightful)
Next Step... (Score:5, Funny)
Scientists at an unknown and undisclosed location are researching into how to create giant bugs that clean up pollution. Plans have been made for a test run of these bugs in New Jersey. Details at 10!
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Next Step... (Score:2, Funny)
Extraordinarily dangerous... (Score:4, Insightful)
GJC
Re:Extraordinarily dangerous... (Score:5, Funny)
You just don't get it, do you?
We've got to start training twelve-year-old schoolgirls to pilot advanced military weaponry at some point. Otherwise, who's going to defend us against giant killer robots?!
Oh, Yoshimi, they don't believe me. But you won't let those robots eat me.
Speculation (Score:5, Funny)
IANAAE (I am not an aeronautical engineer), but I am willing to speculate that it is not doable with legos. Not even with Mindstorms.
Noise? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Noise? (Score:2)
...erm?!. (Score:5, Informative)
Then I saw the end of the film.
THAT THING'S FREAKING HUGE!
Seriously, there *is* a dummy pilot on their test model, but she's about the size of a 12-inch Star Wars doll. What's that going to put the full-sized mehve at, like a thirty-foot wingspan?!
It's waycool work and all, I don't deny that, but Nausicaa's mehve was a personal aircraft she could drag about tossed over her shoulder, and it was mostly steered by shifting her body weight, non unlike a hangglider. The big difference was that its jet propulsion gave it enough speed that it didn't need to be so large as a hangglider in order to generate sufficient lift.
That's what made it so amazing, and that's what made too fantastic to replicate in real life. These designers' trick? Make the thing so UNGODLY HUGE that the pilot has a minimal impact upon its aerodynamics and center of gravity.
So, waycool that they built it and all, but not nearly as cool as the tiny personal aircraft in the original manga.
Dude! (Score:2)
No way! What you need is a flying surf board [prohosting.com]. Let's see you build one of those.
Hoax!?! (Score:2)
My worry (Score:5, Funny)
Something vaguely similar... (Score:2)
Or something like that.
A kind of very low altitude glider but I'm thinking it would only need a short wingspan?
No engine.
(The thing in the article seems to be described variously as a glider and as having a jet engine. Am I missing something here?)
120lbs???!?!?! (Score:2, Funny)
My God, this is the spawn of Satan!!!!!!!!!
It must burn!!!!!
It was cool (Score:3, Funny)
score: -1 pun
neat (Score:2)
Aerial seppuku? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Aerial seppuku? (Score:2)
It'll never get FAA approval (Score:2)
Based on the sound from the video, this craft is clearly using a Class-I jet engine. These were phased out of use by all but older military craft (which were grandfathered in) due to excessive noise.
Re:It'll never get FAA approval (Score:2, Insightful)
Feasibility (Score:3, Insightful)
IANAAE (I-am-not-an-aeronatical-engineer, yes folks, a new acronym is born) but I think this thing is pretty dang doable.
Which illustrates the point...why would you consult slashdot for aeronautical advice?
Re:Feasibility (Score:4, Funny)
Inherently unstable (Score:4, Informative)
Sheesh.
Re:Inherently unstable (Score:3, Informative)
Time to think out of the box. Where do you think the CG of a typical airliner craft is? And where are the wings?
Answers:
1) just short of halfway up the fuselage.
2) near the bottom of the fuselage.
Just because hangliders work that way doesn't mean all aircraft do.
Jet-powered **glider**? (Score:2, Funny)
...as opposed to propeller-powered gliders, I guess. Sounds like something military intelligence cooked up....
It's called a "Mehve" = "Mowe," (Score:3, Informative)
The opening sequence in Nasuicaa where she glides over the desert is really fantastic if you're into flying although you know in the back of your mind something like this would never be stable.
IAAAE (I am an aeronautical engineer) (Score:5, Informative)
First of all, the main thing to notice is the lack of a tail. The main difficulty with the lack of a tail is that you need to balance both Cm (moment coefficient) and AOA (angle of attack) with the trailing edge of the same airfoil, namely the wings. While possible, it's not an easy thing to do. Essentially, for the vehicle to be stable, it needs to have a positive pitching moment at zero AOA (Cmo) and a negative derivative of the pitching moment with respect to AOA (Cmalpha). With a flying wing, the positive Cmo is not difficult to achieve, it's the negative Cmalpha that's difficult. Think of it this way, if the plane is disturbed such that the nose goes up (ie: updraft), the plane needs to have the nose tend down. Tails are really good for this, but without a tail, it's pretty difficult.
The simplest solution is to push back the aerodynamic center (AC) of the wing. Since most wing profiles have an AC at about 1/4 chord (25% from leading edge) for subsonic applications, a profile not used commonly must be used. Once again, this can be done... it's just not very common.
The winglets are a nice touch... helps decrease downwash and therefore overall lift. That, and I think winglets are sexy.
Yes, I'm an aeronautical geek. Deal.
Re:IAAAE (I am an aeronautical engineer) (Score:2)
Re:IAAAE (I am an aeronautical engineer) (Score:3, Informative)
Also, winglets don't contribute much to stability. They reduce the rate at which air flows from the bottom of the wing to the top at the edges. The difference in pressures, which causes the lift, can't simply jump from low to high... there must be a
Is it statically stable? (Score:3, Interesting)
It's possible to build very stable aircraft, but they have high drag, because the stabilizing aerodynamic forces are fighting each other. Engine power can overcome this, which is what they're doing. This isn't a glider.
If this thing is ever flown successfully by a human, it's going to be an experienced test pilot who flies the thing. Someone who's flown very unstable aircraft. It's not going to be steered by leaning; it will need a full set of control surfaces. And they'll have to figure out some way to attach the pilot to the craft.
My Zagi is just a smaller version of this... (Score:3, Insightful)
i've been flying Zagi flying wings [zagi.com] for about 2 years now..
bfd.
this thing doesn't even look as big or as fast as the new dual engine Zagi XT [zagi.com], which basically is just a $250 70 mph crash just waiting to happen.
holy shit - those videos are crazy.. you have better be someplace where augering in at 90 mph is not a big deal... and you better have reaction times like a rattlesnake on a triple espresso.
Geez what a bunch of girls /. has become. (Score:3, Interesting)
Someone build a fun new plane they have succesfully tested. Not some toy model but fully functional jet plane that can take of and land and is easily controlled by remote.
And what is the reaction? Oh it will never fly, it did fly. It is to unstable to control, they did control it and without a crash. Now most /. stories have a lot of uninformed opinions but usually there are at least a couple of people who happen to know what they are talking about. Where are the pilots today?
The thing does fly, wether it is safe with a human on top remains to be seen. But the aircraft without the pilot is not that different from a simple flying wing design. Flying wings are hardly new.
What is different is the placement of the payload. In the movie she lies down flat on top of it and stands on it. Most flying wing designs put the payload inside the wing.
First of laying on top of it. While this would be the most logical thing to do (look at a commercial airliner and replace the tube of the fuselage with a human body same idea) and not disrupt the aircrafts stability you would be just a passenger since there are no traditional controls (some way to move the ailerons) and you would be unable to affect the aircraft much with a shifting in weight (yes hanggliders can but the pilot is farther away from the wing making a small movement have a bigger effect). Depending on the size of the final aircraft you would also have to be carfull not to let the feet dangle in front of the exhaust. A running jet engine is not something you want to be close too. (carrier crew member around?).
Standing on top of it would create a huge amount of drag but would be doable. It is hardly a new stunt to stand on the wings of an aircraft. Don't forget that even the scale model is hardly small. The final aircraft would be pretty normal in wingspan to existing single seaters. As for controlling the aircraft in this way. Unless the aircraft is naturally very close to stable but not to stable I think it would be hard. Airliners are designed to be stable and the aircraft needs constant pressure to change its flightpath from straight and level. An F16 is extremely unstable and can only be flown by a computer. The pilot only telling the computer what the desired attitude is.
Both are not exactly designs you would want to control by shifting weights around. All but hanggliders control flight by altering the shape of the wing (correct me if I am wrong). This might be the hardest thing to do. BUT NOT IMPOSSIBLE. If the aircraft can be made stable enough of its own then a mere shifting of weight should affects its flightpath. Only direct control you can't do without is a throttle.
Moving between lying down and standing up would also significantly alter the profile of the aircraft. Unless the final aircraft is so big that the change in drag is meaningless.
I am not a flight engineer but I do have an avid intrest in flight and am the kinda idiot that devours books and docu's on flight pioneers. I think the makers of this plane know a lot more about flight then me and the people that have reacted so far.
Cool stuff.
Actually... (Score:3, Insightful)
A lot of technology stems from ideas and designs in science-fiction. Always has always will probably. Submarine, Fax machine, just about everything on my desk.
So, like, yeah. It is only a cartoon, but then some guy went out and built technology from that cartoon, so now it's sitting right there on a football feild. Neat.
Disclaimers: 1] I've never seen the cartoon in question, and I'm not going to rush out to grab a copy... for reasons that are my own, an [xmission.com]
Re:Actually... (Score:2)
Even if you're just into giant robots, it has robots too
Re:Retraction. (Score:2)
He forgot to tell you about the horrible, pathetic creature called "Warriors of the Wind" which belongs in the trash can in the same store. Do not as much as try to watch it(I'm serious, RTFF)!
Btw, you probably won't be able to find the video in North America, not until April, at least, but you'll always find the manga(which of course is much more valuable)...
Re:Retraction. (Score:2)
To the original poster: I also highly recommend Nausicaa. I'm not much of an anime fan -- like all things, 90% of it is crap -- but Nausicaa is my favorite. Although the
Re:Jet powered glider (Score:3, Interesting)
The U2 spyplane was basically a glider design with a jet engine stuffed into it.
The idea was to have a craft with an overly-large wingspan to be able to fly at the (then) extreme altitudes contemplated by the U2 designers.
That wasn't flying... (Score:2)
Seriously, the wings gave him some forward momentum but he was dropping like a rock with wings all the way.