India Woos Medical Tourists 479
aspelling writes "It's not only quality hardware and software that can be done in India for a fraction of the cost. BBC reports that India has a generation of world class doctors capable of doing joint replacement, heart, neuro and cancer surgery at their state-of-the-art facilities. Don't be surprised when your physician prescribes you a trip to Bombay. Indian officials are working hard with HMOs around the world to make this dream come true."
HMO? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:HMO? (Score:2, Informative)
Basically the opposite of a good doctor.
What HMO Really is (Score:3, Informative)
HMO is a desperate (and failing) attempt to control skyrocketing medical costs. Traditional system includes the insurance company and doctors as separate entities with the doctor making any decisions they want and insurance just footing the bill.
Unfortunately, newer expensive treatments ( http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=96859&cid=828 3 832 ) and general health degradation in the US caused insurance to experience losses.
S
Re:HMO? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:HMO? (Score:3, Interesting)
The National Health Service in Britain(mentioned in the article) isn't an HMO - it's a...err...national health service.... you know...the idea that people without private health insurance have a right to treament.....
Mind you, I'm Irish....so what we have doesn't even pass for a health service (HMO, nationalised or otherwise!) - in Ireland you won't be refused entry to a hospital based on your insurance plan...so you have the comfort of exp
Re:HMO? (Score:2)
It's more that Mumbai is the "new" official usage. But I don't know where you got the idea that "Bangkok" is archaic -- it's a quite old usage; it's not what the Thais call it (that's Krungthep, for short) but it's the "official" English name.
Re:HMO? (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, yes there is... it's a big one too. It's the government. They determine where you can/cannot go for your healthcare needs, much like any HMO in the US.
Re:HMO? (Score:3, Interesting)
They determine where you can/cannot go for your healthcare needs, much like any HMO in the US.
that is so wrong.
I have a broken leg, I walk into any hospital and they fix it.
I need treatment for cancer, they send me to one of the hospitals which specialize in oncology, oh and I have a say in which one (an aunt just went through this, she was involved in the decision and what doctors she saw.)
The "waiting lists" that the US Republicans like to spout aren't nearly as draconian as they would have you bel
Hrmm (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Hrmm (Score:5, Funny)
fraction of cost... (Score:2, Insightful)
which essentially means that people in developed countries just so much overpaid for what they do it is unbelievable!
a cruel joke of the capitalist economy, as our socialist friends would say...
Re:fraction of cost... (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, I have to wonder what the legal environment is like in India? How much do these docs pay for legal insurance. Since some surgeons in the US can pay over 100,000/yr in insurance, I would suspect that might account for much of the cost.
Re:fraction of cost... (Score:5, Informative)
won't get PhD until I am 29 an until then I earn
less than 20K a year while working basically
every waking moment (about 14 hrs a day/ 7 days a
week). I will then be a postdoc for a few years
earning about 40K and then hopefully a professor
earning 70K or so. If all doctors worked as much as
I do and had pay schedules as low I do we'd have
more or less affordable healthcare.
Re:fraction of cost... (Score:5, Interesting)
For this, we get medical outcomes that are not demonstrably better than those in other first world countries. In fact, our outcomes are probably worse: in terms of life expectancy, we're 48th in the world, roughly the same as Cuba. That's sad, considering that our per capita healthcare spending is greater than Cuba's entire per-capita GDP.
Re:fraction of cost... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:fraction of cost... (Score:3, Informative)
The people in medicine whom make large sums of money are those than do procedures - dermatolgists, gastroenterologist (from colonoscopies and such), and surgeons for example.
Surgeons, whom this article is really about because they would be th
Re:fraction of cost... (Score:5, Informative)
You're woefully wrong when you talk about a lack of accredited facilities in India. I'm sorry to say, but it's apparent that you speak out of an unfound prejudice that discounts the quality of Indian medical institutions.
I've only recently returned from that country and how it is [rediff.com] progressing [apollohospitalgroup.com]. This [whhi.com] Harvard Medical associated facility is just the first of many similarly affiliated facilites coming up all over the country. John Hopkins has associates in the Indian market too.. I just can't recall their names. And there may be so many more initiatives underway that I'm not even barely aware of.
Agreed that even all this infrastructure available today doesn't amount to much, but it's more that a step in the right direction for that country.
And more importantly, for those in developed countries that can't afford to pay the high-cost of private healthcare, India offers a teriffic option to get treatment at a fraction of that cost.
Re:fraction of cost... (Score:2)
Pharmaceuticals lobby (Score:3, Insightful)
Speaking of costs and capitalism, there have been some nasty spats between India and US pharmaceuticals companies if I recall correctly. It's not difficult to recreate a drug - the only protection the US companies have is patent law. India baulked at the costs that were demanded, weighed up the choice of letting people die or violating copyright and (good for them) started knocking off the drugs themselves.
What I'm interested in here however is, should more spats happen, will this weaken the pressure th
Re:fraction of cost... (Score:3, Interesting)
oh great, first they outsource my job, then this . (Score:5, Funny)
Re:oh great, first they outsource my job, then thi (Score:2, Insightful)
So yes, joint operations are fine, I'd be vary of the ethical consequence
Re:oh great, first they outsource my job, then thi (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:oh great, first they outsource my job, then thi (Score:3, Insightful)
Dental care (Score:2, Interesting)
it would definetly lower costs. (Score:5, Interesting)
Hmm, Im torn between feeling bad for doctors/nurses, and happy that there will be less need for lawyers.
later,
epic
Re:it would definetly lower costs. (Score:5, Interesting)
(While I'm sure HMO's will require signing of a waiver, I doubt the waiver will hold up when push comes to shove. IANAL, IANAD, and all that.)
Re:it would definetly lower costs. (Score:3, Insightful)
later,
epic
Re:it would definetly lower costs. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:it would definetly lower costs. (Score:2)
Ok, you go first. Hope nothing goes wrong, since you just said you'd have no recourse.
Re:it would definitely lower costs. (Score:2, Insightful)
Given that large multinational companies are now figuring out how to outsource pretty much everything that Americans make a middle-class living at... How does a geek plan for the future?
Not to be Mr. Negative-Pants, but the future appears to be one where a thin layer of prosperity on the level of a Pakistani bricklayer is smeared around the globe.
So... how do we plan for this? Any creative ideas out there?
had an experience with this (Score:5, Interesting)
This is in stark contrast to the jerk who 'helped' me in SF. "Yeah, drink a lot of water. That'll be $400"
Re:had an experience with this (Score:5, Interesting)
ObSimpsons (Score:5, Funny)
what about malpractice? (Score:4, Interesting)
removed and they remove the healthy one.
Can you sue them for malpractice a-la US?
I'm afraid not.
I read that some HMO's are sending xrays
and cat-scans to india for diagnosis via
internet.
Re:what about malpractice? (Score:3, Insightful)
Is it any wonder lawyers piss all over everyone in the US when there are people like you who worry more about litigation rights than their own health?
Re:what about malpractice? (Score:4, Insightful)
It's called "thinking ahead," numbskull! Choosing medical care is a cost/benefit/risk assessment. A botched kidney transplant isn't like a bad haircut which corrects itself after a time. Dialysis isn't free (in terms of money and time -- taking approximately half a day, twice a week) and there are substantial medical complications one can expect (including stoke, liver damage, infection, hemmorhage, toxemia, death) from long-term dialysis. If medical negligence causes harm (as per this example), the patient should not have to suffer the financial burden of these injuries as well. Therefore, it's appropriate to look beyond the surgery itself and weigh the risks of a poor outcome -- in the event of negligence, will the patient be able to seek legal recourse?
But I suppose, in your eyes, it would be more noble for the person to just say "well, that's that... I'll go die now" and quietly go away?
Re:what about malpractice? (Score:2)
Of course medical procedures don't always go perfectly and of course doctors sometimes make mistakes: they are human too, you know. But I'm sure that's an issue that's come up once or twice in the past before, and I'm equally sure that if your health insurer didn't underwrite the cost of restitution if things we
Have they been AIDS tested? (Score:2, Interesting)
In the West... (Score:4, Interesting)
Several Med. freshman are not worried about saving lives and helping people, just to get out of the hospital with a Mercedez in the way to their house in the beach. Sometime they say that it is expensive because they had to study for 10 years to be a doctor
Some concepts must be reviwed.
Re:In the West... (Score:5, Interesting)
I have been researching a few medical schools as of late, because I wan't to get my DO (doctor of osteopathy) which is the same as an MD.
I hear there has been a shift in the last 10 to 20 years as far as what medical schools are looking for from applicants. They want people who know exactly why they want to be physicians.
I know several fellow paramedics who have just been accepted into medical school with average MCAT scores and are over the of 25.
They understand that these individuals (not just medics, but nurses, EMT's, physican assistants, and people with MBA's who have something to do with medicine) know why they are going to saccrifice their time and effort.
And there are plenty of doctors that I know that don't make that much money. A few general practitioners who work poor urban areas. They do see some patients for free; the equivalent of pro bono work I guess.
As far as medicine being expensive in the West, there are alot more factors contributing to the expenses than a physician's salary.
Re:In the West... (Score:2)
As far as medicine being expensive in the West, there are alot more factors contributing to the expenses than a physician's salary.
Can I second that? I'm an MD and work over 100 hours a week with some of the sickest patients (peds heme/onc) and get about 36 grand. Granted I'm still in residency, but I was thinking yesterday when putting in orders for meds after about 34 hours of trying to stay focused that that's a whole lot of responsiblity to have when you're that tired and that underpaid.
Re:In the West... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:In the West... (Score:2)
I'm a good speller, but a bad typist. But at least I know how to spell apostrophe
you pedantic prick.
Now go get you fucking shine box.
--
Re:In the West... (Score:5, Interesting)
Heck a friend of mine has a PhD and works as a clinical psychologist yet his Indian parents still lament about how he should have become a "Real Doctor".
Re:In the West... (Score:2)
I don't think that's it, there's also a great deal of prestige that comes with being a doctor. "My son the doctor" sounds better to them than "my son the investment banker", even though the latter might be making a lot more.
A few questions... (Score:5, Insightful)
Are doctors in India "certified" by the government? do they get inspected regularly for standards of practice?
I don't want to bash Indian doctors or criticise anyone's decision to valuate medical work purely based on its cost; I just feel the readers should be informed of the potential risks associated with getting major treatments done in other countries just because of financial reasons.
What if I pick a bad doctor and he messes me up or whatever? Who can I sue? In all likelihood hed be gone after I left.
Re:A few questions... (Score:2, Insightful)
Compulsory certification adds costs to the process and creates a monopoly.
So what kind of training have you had? (Score:3, Informative)
4 "years" of Med school (typically 2-3x the work load of what most colleges will limit students)
3-6 "years" of residency (again working 80-130 hrs/week - one-two days off a month so it's equivalent to 10-15 years job experience)
Most surgeons I know work 80 hours/week(think of it as 2 jobs) and are on beeper call 24/7 to their patients, except on rare ocasions.
Re:A few questions... (Score:5, Informative)
In general the average India surgeon operates on many more patients than the US surgeon. It's simple, there are just that many more people in India, and far fewer surgeons. So the level of experience for common procedures is higher in India than in the US. If a medical procedure calls for a cyclotron and a super-computer - the Western countries are where THAT can be done. But a heart bypass - it's done routinely and successfully all the time.
I live in India. My daughter's life has once been saved by the India public (read free) health system. So I'm prejudiced in its favour.
Of course you can get excellent (if expensive) medical / surgical treatment in the US.
And of course some India doctors are venal and money-focussed.
But don't dismiss India doctors and India hospitals as a whole. On the whole they are very very good. And they are about as likely to skip legal consequences (if any) as a US doctor or hospital. Note - the judicial system in India does NOT have jury trials. So no little old ladies get awarded a hundred million when their nose jobs go awry. But there is adequate enforcement of accountability in medical practice.
. .
Re:A few questions... (Score:3, Interesting)
Indian schools have a category for people who have been supposedly been deprived of the facilities owing to their caste in the past. Hence there is the concept of reservation -- one where you are admitted if you belong to a supposedly lower caste merely because in the past your ancestors were discriminated against.
These are called Scheduled Castes & Tribes and other backward communities.
Now, tonnes of people in medical schools have far less than what
There isn't much that can't be outsourced (Score:5, Insightful)
This applies to any profession - there is no "safe" field. Look at law - despite what television tells you, most people with law degrees aren't engaging in clever courtroom rhetoric all day, or even at all, but doing "back office" stuff. This, too, can be offshored in time.
I'm not saying that this is a good or a bad thing, or that I have any answers, but it *is* obvious that saying "just get a new career in accounting/law/marketing/whatever!" is naive because there is no strictly "safe" field to start with, and never will be.
Re:There isn't much that can't be outsourced (Score:5, Insightful)
Please. I'll say it for you - this is a very bad thing. I saw an economist on Lou Dobb's Friday program saying that with all the Tech and Services jobs going overseas, "...if our future isn't in Tech and Services, I don't know what it is in".
Agreed.
If these trade agreements aren't revisited and revisited damn soon, it IS going to plunge the company into a serious recession or depression. We're shipping an ungodly amount of our jobs, wealth, and future everywhere else but the USA.
I'm sure it's easy for all of these other countries to have grossly better wages when they are: barely developed, have no labor laws, no environmental laws, etc.
Kerry for President! Bush isn't doing a damn thing about it and his chief economic adviser things offshoring is a wonderful thing!
Re:There isn't much that can't be outsourced (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes.
"You're talking about fighting economic forces here. The only way to prevent this current outsourcing trend is to become totally isolationist, which two world wars tell us is totally wrong."
Who said anything about being isolationist? I'm FOR trade. It's a wonderful thing. The problem with NAFTA and the WTO is that we gave away the farm. We didn't insist that other countries rise to our level (i.e., with labor standards, environmental standards, etc.) and as a result, we're grossly mismatched. You can't expect any part of our economy to compete with another country that doesn't have similar regulation. Just not going to happen.
Kerry, or someone, needs to revisit the trade agreements until they are **fair**.
"No, America's true skill is not in tech or medicine, but in creativity. Just wait. You'll see a new revolution in something, maybe nanotech, maybe biotech (here's hoping we can get cloning regulated, not banned), maybe something completely different, that will propel us into the future."
Wow! The logic here just escapes me. We can offshore tech, legal jobs, radiology, but it's not going to be possible to offshort "...nanotech, maybe biotech"??? You're kidding yourself.
"In the mean time, we're rich enough. Let the rest of the world have some for a change".
The issue isn't "some", it's going to be "most". What part of the economy can we be competitive in with the current trade agreements. We have a 500 ***billion*** trade deficit right now!!!!!!
"Hell, our unemployment rate currently is less than the average unemployment rate of the 1990's. We're doing OK."
We are? The unemployment figures do not take into account workers who are discouraged and stopped looking. It takes 150,000 new jobs each month just to keep up with population growth. We've *yet* to have one month over 150,000 in the last 3 years.
"I'm just as bitter about not being able to skim inflated wages anymore as you are, but soon, we'll start to at least make something fair. It'll just take some time. No matter who gets elected President."
Rotsa luck dude. This isn't about a high paying job, it's about a future period.
- We have yet to have one month in 3 years with over 150,000 new jobs just to keep up with population growth.
- We have a 500 billion dollar trade deficit. 500 billion dollars!
- Lou Dobb's program on Friday night showed a graph indicating that in Tech trade, we used to have a 30 billion dollar surplus. Now we have a 30 billion dollar deficit.
Re:There isn't much that can't be outsourced (Score:4, Insightful)
The real american skill (Score:3, Insightful)
After India has its little boom and starts to get pricey, then, we will start training computer programmers and doctors in Latin America and Africa.
Hah! In t
Re:There isn't much that can't be outsourced (Score:2)
This. Is. Sad.
So this is the world in 10 years' time... (Score:2, Interesting)
90% of the services you use will be provided by India.
It's ironic that the West leads in one main field, namely agriculture, which should have been outsourced a long time ago were it not for the farming lobbies.
There is no moral to this story except that everything you use and buy - except food - will get cheaper and cheaper.
Re:So this is the world in 10 years' time... (Score:2)
I agree with your percentages and that's the conclusion you draw from all of that? Wouldn't the primary point be that if 90% of the physical products come from China and 90% of the services comes from India,,, uhhhhh,,, what is everyone doing for employment in the USA??????????????
It doesn't matter how cheap goods and services are, if you're out of work, you can't afford anything.
Re:So this is the world in 10 years' time... (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, the moral seems to be government subsidies work.
One step ahead of them! (Score:2, Funny)
Overpaid doctors (Score:5, Interesting)
Perhaps it's not the best bet for open heart, but for some of the more insanely priced operations like that I think it make senses.
Re:Overpaid doctors (Score:3, Funny)
If you had a bad taste in your mouth after seeing the orthodontist, it makes me wonder what else went on besides dentistry while you were under the anesthesia.
The article speaks for itself.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Contrary to the claims of the council, Dr Baru believes there will be no trickle down of money to the impoverished public health system, which currently receives just 0.9% of India's gross domestic product. The MTC's plans may well benefit the doctors and patients involved, but it is currently unclear how a country that still suffers from malaria and TB will reap the rewards of a new wave of medical tourists coming to India.
India has a long way to go before Americans are going to acc
TB is rampant in London (Score:2)
No way... (Score:5, Insightful)
Laws need to be passed to protect the people. These insurance companies are evil. We would be better off with a state run health insurance system than the hyena's that currently run the insurance companies.
Re:No way... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:No way... (Score:2)
Better solution (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:New television show (Score:3, Funny)
Cost of Cardiosurgery (Score:5, Informative)
(PS: This particular hospital performs over 20 angioplasties and around 8 bypass surgeries daily)
allowing ordinary doctors do extraordinary things (Score:3, Interesting)
It's probably not well known that people of Indian origin have a predisposition to heart problems. Last year on ABC's, Foreign correspondent [abc.net.au], Domonique Schwartz did a story [abc.net.au] on Dr. Devi Prasad Shetty [abc.net.au], Cardiologist/Heart surgeon, of Narayana Hrudayalaya Hospital [hrudayalaya.com] in Bangalore.
I ain't showing up in Bombay (Score:4, Informative)
See this page [geocities.com] for information.
Re:I ain't showing up in Bombay (Score:2)
"Constantinople" was like 600 years ago.
Maybe a better comparison would have been Leningrad or Saigon. And I think many people still call it Bombay, even inside India.
Re:I ain't showing up in Bombay (Score:3, Funny)
Istanbul (Not Constantinople) [lyricsdepot.com] is a song by They Might be Giants [tmbg.com] which debates where you are gonna show up for your date if it was supposed to be in Constantinople.
I didn't realize I was that obscure.
more stuff to india? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:more stuff to india? (Score:2)
Uhhhhhhhh,,,, if this keeps happening, they'll have the USA's riches. We will have sent all of our capitol and future overseas.
Re:more stuff to india? (Score:3, Insightful)
Medical Tourists (Score:2, Interesting)
It's official, we live in a wierd science fictional dystopian society. "Medical tourists", It sounds like a term akin to "Organ Leggers" from Niven's Known Space. Go back, oh, 20 years and speak the term "Medical Tourist" and people wouldv'e given you blank stares. Not to long from now they will say, "Had my hip done in India, and my plastic surgery in Mexico."
Since we live in a sci-fi world, I can't wait to get fitted for my one piece jumpsuit, and eating my soma infused soylent big br
Already happening in the UK. (Score:3, Interesting)
Operations can and do go wrong and its not much good if your surgion is half way around the world when you get rushed into hospital. Also hospitals do plan for readmittance, which obviously they cannot do unless you are treated by them.
Also I'm sure I don't need to spell out the problems that will be encountered if the patient needs ongoing treatment.
In the UK when private operations go wrong the patient often gets dumped on the National Health Service.
P.S. If you want my opinion, the US could do a lot worse than get itself a National Health Service. Access to healthcare should not be based on the ability to pay or what is covered on your insurance policy (if you can afford one.)
Cost origins? (Score:3, Interesting)
But even with this taken into consideration, hospital visits that don't touch any expensive machines are still very expensive. Is this to lower the cost of visits that do use expensive equipment? I still think this is explanation is on shaky ground as a $500,000 MRI might be used several thousand times. Does it really cost that much more for upkeep?
Thanks for any info on this matter. It just doesn't seem correct.
Re:Cost origins? (Score:2)
Plus, many hospitals tend to be for-profit, so they charge as much as they possibly can for even minor procedures.
Re:Cost origins? (Score:3, Interesting)
Background: I'm an Indian, I ride a bike and had a fall sometime ago going at 100+ kmph (ie 80+ MPH).
The docs at Apollo Hospital (one of the best hospital chains in India) did MRI... total cost for MRI - Rs 6600! (that is around $330 for you).
And all this after taking into consideration that the MRI equipment is IMPORTED... so they got to pay the shipping and excise/custom duties!!
So, yeah, US docs are FLEECING you! Wake up.
Re:Cost origins? (Score:3, Informative)
Maybe... but... how will they get to India? (Score:5, Insightful)
who tells them - up-front - that
they have a heart or other serious
medical condition?
(And any insurance may not cover
them if they don't tell them...)
Re:Maybe... but... how will they get to India? (Score:3, Funny)
Umm..Air India? The nationally owned airline?
The blame (Score:4, Insightful)
The real blame if something like this REALLY happens is the doctors themselves...
Here in Detroit, the costs of medical care are completely outrageous.
I have had the "opportunity" to have some relatively benign medical proceedures done and the costs of these proceedures was astronomical
Proceedure 1: Partial removal of ingrown toenail. $778.00
Proceedure 2: earwax removal: $190.00
I personally know that the ear-wax removal can be done for $50.00 at a place about an hour away. When you consider that the proceedure consists of the doctor looking in your ear (yep, there is a lot of wax in there), dumping a few drops of a chemical into your ear canal, telling you to lay on your side for 10 minutes (doctor leaves the room at this time to do something else), doctor returns after 10 minutes and squirts a lot of very cold water in your ear canal and the wax is now gone. Total time: 20 minutes.
It's no wonder that someone would consider it reasonable to send medical work off to india. With the amount of overcharging that is "the way things are done" here, it's only a matter of time before things get shaken up...
$50?! (Score:3, Funny)
The futures not bright (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:India hard work a myth (Score:3, Interesting)
1. People who work very hard and are heads and shoulders above others in productivity. There are very few such people.
2. People who work hard and are productive.
3. People who are seat-warmers. According to something I read yesterday, perhaps at slashdot, 71% of American workforce is like that, but I don't believe it.
The above three kinds of people exist everywhere, irrespective of the country.
That India didn't build
How to lower every costs in the US (Score:3, Funny)
What about equipment issues / export controls? (Score:3, Informative)
Medical outsourcing has already begun (Score:3, Informative)
Central America (Score:4, Interesting)
please outsource the malpractice lawyers! (Score:3, Funny)
there are some things that can't be outsourced still. trauma surgery and the Burger King Drive-through, for example
Very bad blood supply (Score:3, Insightful)
The quality of service from hospital to hospital varies dramatically. And the blood supply is not trustable.
Re:State of the art? Come on.. (Score:2)
What? You mean New York? (Score:2)
Re:Lack of quality? or more of it! (Score:5, Insightful)
Furthermore, almost every culture that has existed for thousands of years has had a few great scientists. Are the British inherently any smarter because Issac Newton was British, or the French any wiser because Pascal was French? Obviously not!
Outsourcing is about sharing (Score:3, Funny)
The problem is, India faces major food shortages right now. They can't wait for outsourcing to bring them the money they need. That is where my proposal comes in.
If we ship overfed American women to India, and then