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Walking Through SkyOS 5.0 Beta 311

Posted by timothy
from the shades-of-atheos dept.
Hexydes writes "TechIMO has published the first preview of the next-generation SkyOS platform. The article includes a first-look at what users can expect in the next version of SkyOS, a review of how development has progressed from previous versions, and many screenshots." SkyOS is a free operating system for x86 systems; it looks very polished for being "mainly (99.9%) a one man project."
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Walking Through SkyOS 5.0 Beta

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  • Ob. Joke (Score:5, Funny)

    by sohp (22984) <snewton AT io DOT com> on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @11:10AM (#7973336) Homepage
    Please tell me that that IP stack on this thing is not called SkyNET.
  • hobby os (Score:5, Interesting)

    by wed128 (722152) <woodrowdouglass@gmai[ ]om ['l.c' in gap]> on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @11:11AM (#7973342)
    With no clear advantage over other free unixes, why is this hobbyOS getting so much attention? i tried a beta disc a few months back, and i didn't see anything special...i mean, a one man OS is impressive, but i can't see anyone actually using it...
    • Re:hobby os (Score:3, Interesting)

      by slimak (593319)
      I have to agree -- there is no garuntee that SkyOS will remain (and be current) in say 3 years, but it seems likely that RedHat, Mandrake, etc will -- and almost positively Debian due to this [slashdot.org]
    • Re:hobby os (Score:5, Insightful)

      by da3dAlus (20553) <dustin.grau@UUUg ... inus threevowels> on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @11:17AM (#7973408) Homepage Journal
      "With no clear advantage over other free unixes, [like Linux?] why is this hobbyOS getting so much attention? i tried a beta disc a few months back, and i didn't see anything special...i mean, a one man OS is impressive, [see Linus Torvalds] but i can't see anyone actually using it...[like everyone uses linux now?]"

      Not trying to blow your argument out of the water, but do you have to immediately assume that there is no use for this because you can't find one? Gee, if nobody else uses my web portal software, why should I bother to develop and release it, too? Maybe I should just give up programming cuz nobody will ever see a use for it. I think it's great that someone can find a hobby, stick with it, and share it with everyone else.
      • Re:hobby os (Score:2, Insightful)

        by benja (623818)
        I think the question was not, why should somebody work on a one-person OS in their spare time (kudos to them), but why should it be posted on the /. frontpage? Seems reasonable to me to ask, "Why would people use it?"
      • Re:hobby os (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Alric (58756) <slashdot@tenhu[ ]eld.org ['ndf' in gap]> on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @11:31AM (#7973568) Homepage Journal
        Your point is valid but not a rebuttal to his statement. He is questioning why this specific OS, out of the myriad hobby systems, is getting so much attention. He is yearning for knowledge of what qualities distinguish SkyOS from the pack to the degree that it should be repeatedly highlighted on Slashdot.

        He is NOT questioning why somebody would develop this. He is NOT saying there is no use. He merely wants to know what makes SkyOS special.

        Maybe you should actually read posts before trying to make clever responses.

        I don't mind seeing spots on SkyOS; I just wish other hobby systems were highlighted also. It reminds me of an earlier Slashdot.
        • One of the things I think make it special is that it is written by an ex-BeOS developer. At least I *think* that is true, but now that the site is slashdotted I can't verify that.
          • Re:hobby os (Score:4, Informative)

            by quigonn (80360) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @03:49PM (#7976793) Homepage
            Bwahahaha. The author is definitely _not_ an ex-BeOS developer, as I once saw a SkyOS presentation done by him in my school (and both he and I are Austrians, so any affiliation with BeOS or Be is _very_ unlikely, as he also presented his CV, and there was no foreign software company in it). SkyOS started as a personal project when he was still in school, he was supported by a number of CS teachers at doing this, and after finishing school, he simply went on with developing it.
      • Re:hobby os (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Saeed al-Sahaf (665390) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @12:37PM (#7974276) Homepage
        a one man OS is impressive, [see Linus Torvalds]

        I was under the impression that Linux has a large community of developers.

        • Re:hobby os (Score:5, Insightful)

          by be-fan (61476) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @01:01PM (#7974552)
          Yep. Linus has been probably the major contributer of code and design, but the simple kernel he wrote all by himself has probably long since been rewritten many times over. He certainly never got Linux as far as SkyOS has come, all by himself.
    • Re:hobby os (Score:5, Insightful)

      by finkployd (12902) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @11:25AM (#7973492) Homepage
      Linux was once the same way. People doing stuff like this (imho) is what pushes the computing world further. There may not be a real good production use for it now, but who knows what will happen in the future. 10 years from now we might be talking about another hobby OS and asking what benefits it would offer over SkyOS? :)

      The reason it gets so much attention is that people are now convinced that hobby OSs can actually become more.

      Finkployd
      • Re:hobby os (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Alioth (221270) <no@spam> on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @11:57AM (#7973815) Journal
        The difference is that Linux was never a proprietary OS. SkyOS is a closed source proprietary OS. It's unlikely to get the support or development effort that Linux got.
        • by Ayanami Rei (621112) * <`moc.liamg' `ta' `imanayar'> on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @12:02PM (#7973853) Journal
          once they get it to the point where they think people will be able to contribute to it in a way that is meaningful to the core team. They are apprehensive about having to take patches/requests from the public yet. Or maybe they are embarrased at the state of the internals! :-)

          In the meanwhile, they had the SDK and DDK which will get you very far.
          • Or maybe they're afraid to release the source until the OS has evolved its basic design far enough that it can't be ignored by contributors who don't understand or don't agree with it. See, Linux's success has partially been a result of its being a "Unix Like" system. One of the ideas of SkyOS was to get away from trying to make a clone. Therefore, it needs to have precedents in programming and user interface design, or else contributors will donate their own arbitrary, and possibly incongruous, designs.

            In short: it is easier to create a strong system by following loose rules and methodologies than it is to create one with no rules or methodologies.
      • Linux was once the same way. People doing stuff like this (imho) is what pushes the computing world further.

        I agree. Wasn't it this same kind of tinkering that advanced personal computers in the early 80s?

        I mean seriously... if someone designs and builds their own version of an internal combustion engine and then publishes their work, they should be given some kudos. Not only is the exercise in itself impressive due to the skill involved, the fact that someone took the time to learn the process and s

    • Re:hobby os (Score:3, Insightful)

      by fredrikj (629833)
      With no clear advantage over other free unixes, why is this hobbyOS getting so much attention? i tried a beta disc a few months back, and i didn't see anything special...i mean, a one man OS is impressive, but i can't see anyone actually using it...

      In the light of some dozen retarded case mod articles each year on Slashdot, this doesn't bother me at all.
    • by Bill, Shooter of Bul (629286) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @11:33AM (#7973583) Journal
      Reminds me of another "hobby OS" I ran into circa 1991 also developed by a single person. What was his name ..Linuz something. Ah yes Linuz Torousveld. Wonder what happened with that OS?
    • SkyOS has full support for nVidia cards, something that the Linux kernel is still missing.
    • Atheos (Score:3, Interesting)

      by spitzak (4019)
      What happened to "Atheos" (it was called something like that). It was also a one-person effort to make a Unix-like system designed for the desktop, with integrated GUI. A few years ago that sounded very interesting, but nothing ever came of it. Not a good precedent for this project (unless this is the same project, it is hard to tell).

      But I think one thing that killed Atheos is the same thing that killed almost any alternative to X: inability to support any modern graphics cards at any resolution higher th
      • Re:Atheos (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Vanders (110092) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @01:19PM (#7974795) Homepage
        Development of AtheOS stalled for various reasons. Syllable [sourceforge.net] was created over a year and a half ago by Henrik, Rick & myself to take the AtheOS codebase and open it up for further development. So while AtheOS itself is dead, the code and its spirit lives on quite nicely in Syllable. Some more developers have joined us (Arno and Kaj, with submissions from other developers such as Micheal Krugger and Hilary Cheng) We've developed the original AtheOS 0.3.7 codebase rapidly and released Syllable 0.5.2 only last week. I'd suggest you take a look at the Changelogs [sourceforge.net] or just try it out to get an idea of how much work we have put into it.

        But I think one thing that killed Atheos is the same thing that killed almost any alternative to X: inability to support any modern graphics cards at any resolution higher than VESA. Unfortunatley this information is locked up in X drivers that are so tightly integrated with internal complexities of X that it is impossible to extract and reuse it, despite the open source nature.

        Syllable has drivers for the following graphics cards with full 2D acceleration, and the ones marked with an asterisk also support video overlays (Xv in XFree86)
        • S3 Virge
        • S3 Savage IX/MX
        • Trident video (VLB & PCI)
        • Matrox Millenium & Gx00 cards
        • ATI Mach64*
        • SiS 3xx/Xabre*
        • nVidia TNT/GeForce*
        • nVidia GeForceFX*
        In fact the only notable omisions are the ATi Radeon, S3 Trio & Intel Extreme (i810), and I'm confident we'll have some support for those chipsets soon.

        Porting drivers from XFree86 is not that difficult and lack of specs is a problem, but not as bad as you might think.
    • Re:hobby os (Score:3, Informative)

      Its a *HARD REAL TIME OS*.

      Nuff said? (Probably not -- but if you understood what is meant by that it would be enough ...)
  • Screen shot (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @11:13AM (#7973358)
    Screen shot [66.90.81.8]
    • Windows syndrome. (Score:3, Interesting)

      by jotaeleemeese (303437)
      Why there is always somebody that comes with a screenshot when here is an announcement about a fscking Operating System?

      I would be more interested in talking about the internals, not the eye candy (which is not part of the OS in any serious OS anyway).
      • by JDBrechtel (48222) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @11:48AM (#7973741)
        It's probably because everyone doesn't bend to your will.

        You don't rule the world you know?
    • woot! We've slashdotted a THIRD server!
  • For x86?? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by earplug (465622) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @11:18AM (#7973416)
    It seems that x86 is on its way out the door, and 64bit is on its way in.

    Is there a 64bit solution in development, or is this yet another project to keep our old hardware useful?
    • Re:For x86?? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Hythlodaeus (411441)
      Is there a 64bit solution in development, or is this yet another project to keep our old hardware useful?

      It seems to me that in the current marketplace there's more of a burden to make 64 bits useful.
  • Hardware (Score:5, Funny)

    by sonoluminescence (709395) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @11:19AM (#7973432)
    The minimum requirments are a pentium and 32MB of RAM.... And from the load time of the web page I think that web server is running on a that exact hardware.
  • by haggar (72771) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @11:20AM (#7973442) Homepage Journal
    30% will say "Who needs another OS when we have Linux."
    25% will say "Why another OS project? He should rather concentrate on MySQL/fishing/stamp collection"
    25% will say "So what, it's his damn time, he can do what the pleases."
    25% will say "HA! You can't even do math! 30+25+25+25 != 100"
    • by p4ul13 (560810) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @11:27AM (#7973520) Homepage
      25% will say "HA! You can't even do math! 30+25+25+25 != 100"

      Some might say that, but I'll simply thank you for giving %105 to us, the slashdot community.

      Thanks Haggar, you're an example to us all.

    • 25% will say "Why another OS project? He should rather concentrate on MySQL/fishing/stamp collection"

      Aren't they more likely to go off on the "charity" rant? You know, the one that goes "instead of spending so much [time|money] making a [homebrew OS|lego robot|wacky case mod], why doesn't the selfish bastard [pick up garbage along the highway|teach someone else's children to read|build linux based 286's for the homeless]?"

    • Your four events are not necessarily mutually exclusive, and thus do not necessarily need invidually to add up to a probability of 1.0.

      Also, I will register myself in the another OS project category and his own damn time.

      Specifically: 1) I don't really see what is good or bad about this OS. It doesn't have any particular feature that can't be gotten elsewhere, nor does it do anything particularly well. That being said 2) it is impressive being primarily an single individual's effort. If only an attempt to
  • I have two problems (Score:5, Interesting)

    by msuzio (3104) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @11:22AM (#7973458) Homepage
    I see a couple "problems" (well, OK, they're just gripes of mine, so take that for what it's worth):

    1) It's not free-as-in-speech. I take a dimmer view of projects that aren't open and have already taken a firm stand that they will *never* be open. Coupling this with some allegations of *possible* GPL violations (which were covered in the last SkyOS story), and it just gives me a bad feeling

    2) I just don't see anything here to get excited about. Kudos to the author for doing this all on his own, that's great... but without something new and exciting to offer, it's just a toy project at best. I'd rather see innovative minds like this throw their weight behind projects that we do need (like better Linux games <g>).
    • So, you desire to live off the teet of society and play games all day. Good for you. But when you come to the realization that you can't live in your mom's basement the rest of your life, YES, I WILL TAKE FRIES WITH THAT.
    • by jez9999 (618189)
      2) I just don't see anything here to get excited about.

      Um, quite. I read the review... it says, at the top, "operating system with one of the most intuitive graphical user interfaces ever. Gone are misconceptions about conformance. SkyOS serves as a reminder to GUI developers that the current status quo will only suffice for so long." This heavily implies that SkyOS has loads of new, revolutionary features, and a totally new UI from previous OSes.

      So I looked at the review and screenshots. It's got a d
  • Mirror (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @11:22AM (#7973460)
    The server is running slow so here is a mirror. Pasted Anonymously so as to not karma whore:

    Many would say "thinking outside the box" is an overused cliche, but the developers with the SkyOS project would be the first to challenge such an assumption. Spearheaded by Robert Szeleney, the group of part-time coders is furiously hacking away at producing an operating system with one of the most intuitive graphical user interfaces ever. Gone are misconceptions about conformance. SkyOS serves as a reminder to GUI developers that the current status quo will only suffice for so long.

    About SkyOS

    SkyOS started life in 1996 as a small operating system project written from scratch for the x86 architecture. As underground support grew, the project rapidly evolved into a full-fledge, freeware platform. Sure, it certainly is not Linux or Windows, but those with an insatiable appetite for tweaking and bleeding-edge development will probably come to love SkyOS over the upcoming months.

    While a wide variety of hardware support still remains minimal, SkyOS does deliver features commonly found with commercial operating systems: 32-bit processing, symmetric multiprocessing, virtual memory, memory protection, multitasking, multithreading, hardware 2D acceleration, TCP/IP networking, PPP support, and much more. Given the small size and part-time nature of the core development staff, SkyOS has came a rather long way in a short amount of time.

    The real centerpiece of the project is the graphical user interface. With the bulk of low-level coding already established, the SkyOS team has recently transitioned to developing a high-performance GUI capable of delivering a unique desktop experience. Just as with the OS layer, the GUI includes many impressive features: 32-bit color depth, hardware acceleration (as applicable), a message passing subsystem, and even preliminary OpenGL support.

    Sure, I could write volumes about the technical aspects of the SkyOS core, but it seems the development team is already well ahead of us journalists. A thoroughly documented SkyOS manual and SDK are already available, packed full with detailed information. What would an operating system project be without an adjoining documentation project as well?

    SkyOS 5.0 Beta Release

    Following a few emails with Kelly Rush concerning ATI driver support, I found myself in a position to receive a preview copy of the SkyOS 5.0 Beta release. Never being one to turn down free software, I quickly snapped at the opportunity, plus secured TechIMO an exclusive first look at the operating system. Following several days of testing, SkyOS 5.0 represents a true evolutionary step from the current version 4.x installation.

    While I will refer to this release as a beta build, the version I received was more typically aligned with a pre-beta development build. Since initial receipt of the code, the development team has opened up a SkyOS beta program for those interested in testing the operating system during the next few months. A one-time purchase of $30 includes a SkyOS 5.0 disc and technical support via a beta forum. Once finalized, SkyOS 5.0 will be free as with previous releases, but the developers needed to cover expenses for supporting the beta test program, thus the small fee. Only 100 spots were allotted, and those are being filled fast!

    Installation

    Installing SkyOS seems painless enough, assuming you already have experience with Linux or another Unix-type platform. While several options exist, my installation was successfully completed using a hard drive with two partitions (SkyOS install files and SkyOS install drive) and a simple boot floppy running a preconfigured version of the popular GRUB bootloader. I also installed SkyOS under VMware 3.2.1 with little trouble, though a few minor changes were required within a text configuration file to successfully detect the VMware graphics subsystem.

    Once booted, the installation routines look fairly generic. Most options are clearly d

  • w000t! (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @11:30AM (#7973555)
    DOUBLE SLASHDOTTING!!!

    Yes thats correct, we have successfully slashdotted two different sites in the same article! Keep up the good work and let's try for a triple slashdotting!!
  • Bad press (Score:4, Interesting)

    by TrancePhreak (576593) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @11:32AM (#7973569)
    I'm sure there are some people who are happy about this project, but showing off screenshots of you 'illegally' playing a Nintendo title on an emulator probably isn't the right thing to do.
  • Mirrors coming soon! (Score:5, Informative)

    by Hexydes (705837) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @11:32AM (#7973572)
    I'm sorry everyone, we didn't know we'd get Slashdotted! We're working on getting some mirrors up for all of you.

    QUIT STEALING OUR BANDWIDTH! =D

  • It's at least free as in beer, but is it free as in speech? That's what I'd like to know, and is the most important question from my point of view. Is it GPL, BSD/X-Windows, or public domain? Or could it even be proprietary but gratis? I can't tell from looking the pages from the SkyOS website I was able to see at before it got totally slashdotted just like the TechIMO website.

    If it's closed source and proprietary, then forget it. Such a system is of no real use.

    • From what I understand it is "proprietary but gratis".
    • He's not going to release the source anyway.

      In this day and age of OSS projects, that fact sort of killed any interest I had, as its locked into his whim on its longevity.. no thanks. I dont need another 'discontinued' project due to lost interest from the sole developer.

      Its nice work and he get kudos for the *technical* side of course.. espcially for a one man team..
  • At least (Score:5, Funny)

    by Gothmolly (148874) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @11:39AM (#7973640)
    it wasn't reviewed on OSNews. Had it been, there would have been snide comments on package management, anti-aliased screen fonts, and the color scheme used for the 'Recycle Bin' icon. And Eugenia would have tried to build a custom version of GAIM, and failing dependencies would have caused another tantrum.
  • Politics in SkyOS (Score:5, Interesting)

    by pcraven (191172) <paul&cravenfamily,com> on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @11:40AM (#7973654) Homepage
    This [slashdot.org] is kind of an interesting post from one of the SkyOS guys. Even being a small 'one-man' OS, it seems that people get mired in politics these days.
  • Mirror of content (Score:4, Informative)

    by Mr_Silver (213637) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @11:43AM (#7973683)
    A mirror of the SkyOS review can be found in a Slashdot comment here [slashdot.org].

    No-one seems to have modded it up to a point where people might start actually seeing it.

  • /. effect (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Karem Lore (649920) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @11:46AM (#7973721)
    Hey all,

    Just a few little question:

    If we manage to slashdot all these sites all the time:

    how come /. never gets /.'d?
    What the hell are /. running over at /. to maintain /.'s high speed at all times allowing /. readers access?
    Everyone must come through the /. site so the /. site must be hammered at least as much as other sites...

    Karem

    • As he often comments on the state of their hardware and network, go peruse CmdrTaco's Journal [slashdot.org], and hell, e-mail him or someone on the staff if you're really really interested.
    • by Anonymous Coward
      /. uses Windows Server 2003
    • From the Source (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Civil_Disobedient (261825) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @12:20PM (#7974080)
      From the /. FAQ [slashdot.org]:

      Slashdot's new co-location site is now at Andover.Net's own (pinky finger to the mouth) $1 million dedicated data center at the Exodus network facility in Waltham, Mass [...] All boxes are networked together through a Cisco 6509 with 2 MSFCs and a Cisco 3500 so we can rearrange our internal network topology just by reconfiguring the switch. Internet connectivity to/from the outside world all flows through an Arrowpoint CS-800 switch which acts as both a firewall load balancer for the front end Web servers.

      The Hardware: 5 load balanced Web servers dedicated to pages; 3 load balanced Web servers dedicated to images; 1 SQL server; 1 NFS Server.
      All the boxes are VA Linux Systems FullOns running Debian (except for the SQL box). Each box (except for the SQL box) has LVD SCSI with 10,000 RPM drives. And they all have 2 Intel EtherExpress 100 LAN adapters.


      The company I used to work for was co-located at the Exodus network facility, and I've been in it a couple of times. It is, in a word, awesome. The security is tighter than Ft. Knox. They usually don't let you past the front "desk" unless you've got a good reason. (By "desk" I mean a tightly secured room with heavy glass, steel doors, a million cameras on you). They make you wear trackable badges when you enter the building. You're instructed to not look at Altavista's boxen (which were also located at Exodus, at least when I saw it). Of course everyone looks anyway. The drool factor on these systems cannot be measured in simple liters. The battery backup system alone is massive, and there's something like 3 redundancies for each system. All the boxes are inside steel cages, most of the cooler systems use optical data transfer... There's enough heavy-iron Cisco in the building to grill yourself up a pancake the size of Texas. (Oh, that's crisco).

      In other words, not IIS with a cracked copy of MS SQL running off XP Pro on an AMD Thunderbird.
  • by CrankyFool (680025) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @11:51AM (#7973759)
    SkyOS's biggest benefit -- from what I hear, multiple SkyOS boxes across the nation could actually network together and form a pseudo-intelligent network-driven parallel processing system that could be used for scientific calculation, SETI, or even potentially combatting a very serious virus outbreak, if one was to occur. AND, because it'd be completely distributed, it'd be very hard to take it out with an attack on any of its nodes.

    Surely such an idea has tremendous merit!
  • Without a libre license, this project doesn't seem to have all that much potential for mass adoption/development.

    Which is a disappointment, because I would hella like to see a good libre desktop OS.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @12:46PM (#7974359)
    to quote the author, he "will never" release the source code. At least with a big company like Microsoft you've got some security that they're not going to suddenly shutdown -n and disappear. But if you're planning to invest your eggs in SkyOS as anything more than a toy, you're doing so without security, much like how BeOS users had with an OS from a small company.

    SkyOS is receiving tons of attention. Whereas Syllable [sourceforge.net], which is being developed openly, under the GPL, and at a faster rate, is not. And why? Maybe because SkyOS's website burns through ~35gb of screenshot bandwidth per month, or its geekcooler or something. But it isn't fair to compare this project with Linux in 1991. Linus liberalised his licence from what it was originally to make it freer for others to use for their own purposes. Whereas SkyOS was relicenced and has withdrawn source-code availability with the de facto promise to "never" release it again.
    • Or maybe it's because SkyOS is a nice, polished system with direction from a "benelovent dictator," while Syllable is a mismanaged kludge of an OS.

      In short: it gets press BECAUSE of what you call its "critical fault:" it's restricted to a core of talented people who don't want a bunch of hackers fucking things up in the name of the community.
  • If the main developper dies, or scraps his box and all his backups, the whole project is sent to /dev/null.

    All right, other developpers may have the source code but how many of them? Five? If two of them get children and stop working on SkyOS, another one dies, another gets arrested and the last one simply switches to another project, well... SkyOS will be pinin' for the fjords. Too risky for a big project like that.

    Frankly, I just don't see why some developpers, especially with an OS project like this on
  • by Xaroth (67516) on Wednesday January 14, 2004 @02:38PM (#7975798) Homepage
    "Installing SkyOS seems painless enough, assuming you already have experience with Linux or another Unix-type platform."

    Heck... having your teeth pulled without anesthesia seems painless enough, assuming you already have experience with Linux or another Unix-type platform.

    Oh, wait. This is a pro-*nix forum.

    How 'bout:
    "Having your teeth pulled without anestheisia seems painless enough, assuming you already have experience with or another -type platform."

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