Fuel Cells To Appear In Laptops In 2004 393
prostoalex writes "The overhyped fuel cells will finally be delivered to the portable computing market. Toshiba and NEC will incorporate fuel cells into the laptops by 2004. Sony, Hitachi and Casio are expected to follow the suit. The tests show a fuel cell lasting 10 hours. With the form-factor of a Bic lighter, it allows the laptop user to carry a few extra cells in the laptop bag all the time. Battery prices are expected to run at about $200."
Can't wait to buy the first generation.... (Score:5, Funny)
Booooooooooooooooooooommmmmmm!!!!!!
Re:Can't wait to buy the first generation.... (Score:5, Funny)
You're a geek, it's not like you were using them.
Re:Can't wait to buy the first generation.... (Score:2)
>You're a geek, it's not like you were using them.
Yeah, we use them all the time...
You need something to absent-mindedly fiddle with, while your solving the worlds problems;
or day-dreaming about the hot new PA your boss just hired.
Re:Can't wait to buy the first generation.... (Score:3, Funny)
Damn, I think I have efectively castrated myself...
Oh my god ... (Score:2)
Re:Oh my god ... (Score:2)
Re:Can't wait to buy the first generation.... (Score:4, Funny)
Maybe these laptops might be my saviour when the cop pulls me over in Mi and asks whats that bottle of Everclear for.
May I borrow that comment? (Score:5, Funny)
Booooooooooooooooooooommmmmmm!!!!!!
and then my testicles were, like, gone.
The computer blew up my testicles.
I liked my testicles
They were really good testicles.
Hit your charged li-ion pack with a hammer.. (Score:5, Informative)
Lithium ion cells are very dangerous - maybe more so. Something to think about.
And please, nobody hit your battery packs with a hammer. Bad things will happen and you could be seriously injured. Seriously. I made a mistake on a circuit board once and had a coin cell go off like a large metal jacketed firecracker.
Re:Hit your charged li-ion pack with a hammer.. (Score:5, Funny)
Damn! I've got to give that a try! That might top grounding 240V with my finger in high school shop.
Re:Can't wait to buy the first generation.... (Score:4, Funny)
Fuel cell laptops - the chlorine of the gene pool.
Re:Can't wait to buy the first generation.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Will security allow them on planes? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Will security allow them on planes? (Score:5, Informative)
If you would RTFA you would see that the fuel would be somewhere around 24% methanol / 76% water. One of those single serving vodka bottles would make a better weapon.
Re:Will security allow them on planes? (Score:5, Funny)
And a better cocktail, IMHO. That other stuff will make you blind.
Re:Will security allow them on planes? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Will security allow them on planes? (Score:3, Insightful)
What's *not* a potential weapon? (Score:4, Insightful)
And how about those hard, bony hands you have there? One good punch from those could knock someone out!
Or those teeth in your head! Sharp and hard and rigged up to a very strong and effective system of musculature -- you could maim with those things!
Better get rid of all of 'em.
Re:Will security allow them on planes? (Score:5, Funny)
Have you ever had a nail in the eye? (Score:3, Funny)
Deadly!
Re:Will security allow them on planes? (Score:3, Informative)
Take some nichroming wire less than a few inches (from a crock pot) add little extra wire for connecting to second battery (like a headset for a walkman). Wrap nichroming wire around fuel cell and plug in.
For a better power source, use an electic razor cord and attach to longer nichroming wire, plug into bathroom power.
I am suprized anyone is allowed on a plane, considering how any thing carried on can be a weapon.
It least the planes should start offer
Worth the risk? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Worth the risk? (Score:3, Insightful)
It's going to be the CD/DVD drive that will be mitigating factor in laptop size, that is, until we all get on board with smaller, alternative media, like USB memory keys or smart cards of some sort.
This would also have amazing applications in other devices, as
Re:Worth the risk? (Score:3, Funny)
It doesn't take an alternative fuel car. A friend of mine has '72 Dodge Monaco station wagon that he's restored. He has a 440 big block that has been bored out to 490 in it, and three fuel tanks. Even with that monster power plant, and 6000lb GVWR, he can go 500 miles without refuelling. Of course, right now, it'll cost him more than $100 to refuel...
I think that if you had
Re:Worth the risk? (Score:4, Insightful)
Uhh... All I can say is that you are completely wrong. Batteries aren't very heavy compared to the notebook itself, and even if they were, Li-Ion batteries are quite light as well.
Not going to happen. Nothing else can be nearly as cheap as "dumb" media, like optical discs. Smart devices like CompactFlash are always going to be significantly more expensive than CDs/DVDs, unles there is a very very major breakthrough in technology, which I don't expect for the next decade.
The best you can hope for is minidiscs getting to be popular.
But besides that, small notebooks are small enough as it is. Much smaller and you wouldn't be able to type reasonable well. The space the CD takes up really isn't that significant in the big scheme of things.
As for the large notebooks, it certainly isn'th the CD-ROM that makes them large.
The most important thing article doesnt mention... (Score:5, Insightful)
You can't regenerate it, so you go shopping for a refill?
Of course they've thought of this... (Score:3, Funny)
There's included instructions on how to fart into the fuel cell. That provides enough fuel for another 10 hours.
Re:The most important thing article doesnt mention (Score:5, Funny)
- "Where ya crunchin today"
- "I'm headin ova to the east side to war drive for a few hours then I gotta catch me a plane to Utah to kick McBride in the crotch."
- "Get 'er dun"
But seriously. Hopefully the refils are cheap enough that it would make this feasible. Otherwise I personally only see the technology being viable for desknotes or desktop replacement computers that are rarely away from a wall socket and could benifit from a (very) small battery.
Re:The most important thing article doesnt mention (Score:2)
Re:The most important thing article doesnt mention (Score:5, Informative)
why not like lighter refills? (Score:3, Interesting)
Surely somebody could just market a refiller like you get refiller aerosol cans for reusable lighters? 500ml can with nozzle that pokes into the fuel cell, give it a shot, and you're refueled?
Ok so we know that the big fuel cells companies will try to sit on top of this like homer_ca says, insist their brand can't be mixed. but surely somebody is likely to come out with the Taiwanese / Chinese made generic refillable version, hack the technology?
Not an engineer, so can somebody let me know if this is fe
Re:maybe it's just california (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:The most important thing article doesnt mention (Score:2)
Are you really going to run out and get a new supply every x hours of computer time vs. plug into a wall socket? How easy will it to be buy the refills? Will it be only in specialty stores?
Re:The most important thing article doesnt mention (Score:2)
Re:The most important thing article doesnt mention (Score:3, Informative)
Granted, there is probably some processing, but even analytical grade lab methanol isn't going to cost you that much more. The biggest part of the price will be the container--and I wouldn't be
Universal Refil and Apple (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Universal Refil and Apple (Score:3)
Also, anotherissue will be planes. They don't allow pressurized cartri
Re:...Apple (Score:3, Funny)
Sheesh.
Upcoming Spam (Score:5, Funny)
Is it just me, or can you already see the "FILL YOUR OWN FUEL CELL AND SAVE $$$" spam filling your mailbox? ;)
Why only one? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why only one? (Score:2)
Re:Why only one? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:What will it be powering? (Score:4, Insightful)
If I had a 2Ghz P4 I wouldn't expect it to last more than 2 hours.
My bet is that those 10 hour estimates rely on future expected power saving advancements (read: Vapor!).
Whoa. I mean, no way. (Score:2, Insightful)
The business flyers, which probably comprise at least 70% of laptop users, will be hard-pressed to get "BIC lighter-sized" fuel cells onto planes, unless it's disguised as a lighter (which aren't supposed to be allowed anyway).
Imagine explaining to security what that little sucker is.
Re:Whoa. I mean, no way. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Whoa. I mean, no way. (Score:5, Informative)
Well, fortunately (or unfortunately, as the case may be), the tobacco industry lobbyists won a battle with the homeland security people: lighters and matches are not banned from airplanes, because big tobacco called their pet politicians and fought the proposed regs. You can take a Bic lighter on a plane in the US.
Re:Whoa. I mean, no way. (Score:3, Informative)
I had one confiscated at the airport.... wouldn't have been so bad if it wasn't a gift given to my girlfriend from someone in australia.....
Re:Whoa. I mean, no way. (Score:2)
There was a time that I carried a alphanumeric pager, and like any good geek I hacked together a ttl logic serial port and changed it's basic configeration. It was most useful going to the airport, this was pre-9/11. They would ask me to turn it on, I said it was on. They told me to make it say something, so I hit the little button and it said, "Bugger off".
will be hard-pressed to get "BIC lighter-sized" fuel cells onto planes, unless it's dis
Inflammable means Flammable? What a country! (Score:4, Interesting)
If I had my druthers, perfume would be banned completely from all flights.
But seriously, the main problem is that these fuel cells can be easily reconfigured to contain highly explosive materials for use as portable bombs. In this highly charged anti-terrorism atmosphere, it is important to make technology as transparent as possible. The more a technology relies on bomb-like batteries or razor-like Flash memory cards, the more likely it becomes that a real terrorist could sneak a truly dangerous device onboard.
Re:Inflammable means Flammable? What a country! (Score:2, Insightful)
So can my shoes - in fact that's been tried. All that idiot and would-be-martyr lacked was an adequate detonation system.
We've all seen the monkeys that work security at the airports. They're too busy harrassing honest non-terrorists, taking their bic pens, fingernail clippers, and knitting needles. They won't catch someone who is ernestly trying to sneak something danger
Re:Inflammable means Flammable? What a country! (Score:4, Insightful)
I understand caution, but unless they restrict ALL liquids and bottles, they can't really prevent the "portable bomb" issue
Anyways, a savvy airline would PROHIBIT them as carry ons, and then sell them to users on board, like the movie theaters do with food.
Re:Inflammable means Flammable? What a country! (Score:5, Funny)
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO - MOD THIS DOWN, MOD THIS DOWN!!! We can't allow this to be seen by an airline executive!!!!! Damn yooouuuu!!!!
Re:Inflammable means Flammable? What a country! (Score:2)
They already know. Qantas sells adapters for their funny DC power sockets on international flights so that you can plug your laptop in.
Selling fuel cells would be a natural evolution and a money makers for domestic flights..
Re:Inflammable means Flammable? What a country! (Score:3, Funny)
*pays homage to News Radio*
Re:Inflammable means Flammable? What a country! (Score:2)
Re:Inflammable means Flammable? What a country! (Score:2)
What's more, we had packed a canister of camping-stove fuel in one of our checked bags, and not until the fourth flight
Re:Inflammable means Flammable? What a country! (Score:3, Funny)
That's hilarious - somebody mod this funny, cuz some moron modded it insightful.
Re:Inflammable means Flammable? What a country! (Score:4, Funny)
iFuel-cell!
Michael Moore is a stupid white man (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Michael Moore is a stupid white man (Score:2)
reusable? (Score:3, Interesting)
They also mention that the infrastructure's not there yet to support these cells. I'm guessing that means there are no places that will refill them.
So if you desperately need that much battery power, pay the price each time until refill stations come along. yay.
Re:reusable? (Score:2)
Sounds like a business opportunity! Imagine how much money you could make gouging users before refill stations become common.
Re:reusable? (Score:2, Informative)
They mention that there is no infrastructure to support fuel cell cars, and they say laptops will be the first products to market that use fuel cells because they don't have the infrastructure hurdle.
Also, they don't talk of refilling them, they say that you will swap out a fuel cartridge. It sounds like the only infrastructure required is some shelf spac
What about current gen laptops? (Score:3, Interesting)
/Mikael
Re:What about current gen laptops? (Score:3, Insightful)
There's no reason they couldn't. I'd expect to see some enterprising folks building battery-sized fuel cells to retro-fit older laptops.
As a side note, hopefully this technology will filter down to PDAs too.
Why do I get the feeling... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why do I get the feeling... (Score:2, Interesting)
Well, hopefully some company that will make easily refillable generic batteries that can go in the laptop. Sure, they can DRM the refillable cartrdiges, but would they DRM the whole battery?
Something I wonder about (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Something I wonder about (Score:3, Insightful)
Cool (Score:2)
Finally hitting the market? (Score:4, Interesting)
I think the tech sector is definately a more appropriate audience for fuel cells, the market is much more used to accepting new technologies and living with a short product life span.
It is good that the problems and shortcomings of fuel cells can be uncovered by the tech market before the auto industry adopts them. It'd be a shame to have a car that you just paid $20,000 for break down after a couple years!
Re:Finally hitting the market? (Score:2)
Move oveer James Bond (Score:2)
'briefcase bomb'?
"Don't even think about it man, this laptop is armed and ready to blow!"
(I am suddenly reminded of the nifty little gizmo briefcase that James Bond used to carry around
do fuel cells handle heat???? (Score:2, Interesting)
The actual quote (Score:2)
Goodman predicts that, in a matter of years, fuel cell batteries no bigger than a cigarette lighter will run for 10 hours or more before being replaced.
I suspect prostoalex might work in a PR department.
forget fuel cells (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:forget fuel cells (Score:3, Funny)
Or you could intergrate that into the screen hinge. But, just imagine a geek, with his spastic uncoordinated movements, trying to charge his laptop. It'll look like he's doing the polka on an accordion.
New Trends Arising Out of This? (Score:2)
Some of my guesses include:
1. increase notebook/laptop sales -- people who think their notebooks are "fast enough" will finally have a compelling reason to switch.
2. revolutionize the UPS (uninterruptable power supply) market.
3. dramatically increase the number of wirelessly connected users.
4. ad hoc LAN parties!
And so on...what is your prediction?
A pic and a link (Score:5, Interesting)
from
Fuelcell.org [fuelcells.org]
you may now mod this as redundant.
Just use alkaline AA batteries? (Score:4, Interesting)
Just add some fresh cells when you get in a bind and it works without having to ante up $200 for an overpriced rechargeable from the manufacturer.
I usually use it plugged into the wall, but like to have the option of using the batteries.
You'd have to buy a lot of alkalines to offset the rechargeable's cost that never lasts as long as they boast.
Re:Just use alkaline AA batteries? (Score:4, Insightful)
I've got a few sets of rayovac 1800 alkaline rechargables that I use in my digital camera that last longer than a normal set of non-rechargable alkaline batteries.
Not Untill The Recharges Are "Free" (Score:5, Insightful)
Right now, how does it work? I use my battery, and it gets low. Then I plug my laptop in and after a short time, the battery is "magically" refilled, and it didn't cost my any money (my electric bill, but that's a few cents max). I can recharge my laptop ANYWHERE I can find an outlet, which is just about anywhere.
Now for the fuel cell battery. I use my battery and it's gone. Now I have to recharge it with a new little lighter sized cartridge thing. I don't want to pay $5 for 'em. I don't want to pay $1 for 'em. If I got a few refillable fuel "cartridges" when I bought my laptop and some kind of home refuling station that would use my natural gas line or something, I would consider it, maybe. I'll take my 3 or 4 hour battery life over your 10 since mine is free. And when do I need 10 hours of battery life anyway? Most people probably don't, as they could probably find places to plug in by then.
So how do you get me to do something like this? Make a fuel cell battery that works with something like pure hydrogen and oxygen. It mixes them to make electricity and stores the water in a little compartment. Then when I plug my laptop into the wall, it uses the electricity to reseperate the water into hydrogen and oxygen and stores them back in their own little compartments. Basically a sealed system that works just like a standard battery. I really don't care what's in it, or how it works, but unless it works a LOT like a battery, I'm not terribly interested. I'm not paying for what I get for "free".
Re:Not Untill The Recharges Are "Free" (Score:5, Insightful)
What about outside on a park bench enjoying some summer air while you do your work by wireless LAN?
Mixing pure hydrogen and oxygen? Storing pure oxygen in something small and lightweight enough to carry around without a wheelchair? If you can tether yourself for enough time to gain a full charge often enough to run off of a 2 hour battery (and I'm not talking about playing a few mp3s with the lid down but using the DVD-ROM full screen while powering your wireless card, USB optical mouse, and 15" LCD screen...) which would give you about 45 minutes to move about before your hibernate function kicks in...
You have to be joking. A 10 hour fuel cell that I can refill with my mixture of methanol/water from home (actually, I'd just steal from the lab) is a great idea...at only a fraction of the cost more than a replacement battery every few years!
Re:Not Untill The Recharges Are "Free" (Score:4, Insightful)
Sitting on a park bench while enjoying summer air? This is /.! OK, all joking aside, I don't have wireless lan and even if I did, I can't see myself sitting for more than 2 or 3 hours outside using my laptop. For one thing I've found laptop screens can be hard to read in sunlight, and either way I'm not an outdoors person (allergies). Again, my batteries could cover me for what I'd do.
I used the oxygen/hydrogen thing as an example. As for charge time, I usually let my laptop charge overnight.
I would like a 10 hour battery too, and I would need to be able to refill it at home, but I'm NOT going to pay someone $5 for a few hours worth of fuel because you can't recharge it anywhere there is an electrical outlet the way my battery can.
Methanol should be cheap (11cents a gallon) (Score:3, Informative)
If this machine is using 24% methanol mixed with water, then 1 gallon of this Fuel Cell fuel should cost around 11 cents.
Basically a dime for a gallon, I'm assuming you that should last you a fairly long time. Probably cheaper than the electricity it takes to charge your laptop.
Re:Methanol should be cheap (11cents a gallon) (Score:4, Insightful)
But I get your point, and I agree. I'm just saying things don't always work like that.
Re:Not Untill The Recharges Are "Free" (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, but your lithium-ion battery lasts what, 18 months? Two years? And how long does it retain full capacity? Six months? I'll gladly ditch my batteries for fuel cells if they'll last the life of the device. My 1998 Thinkpad 770 is on its fourth Li-ion battery, and they haven't been cheap.
I disbelieve (Score:2)
If they were actually that close to tapping the laptop market, they'd have more products for the desktop market. In particular, I'd like to see a UPS system that uses fuel cells and doesn't suffer from a "battery wear" problem. The battery in my first UPS went bad before it was even used once. Until I see results in other markets, there is no way I'm going to expect it to perform as advertised in a portable.
Lets hope they standardize cartridges (Score:3, Insightful)
How Much Do We Need? (Score:3, Interesting)
I used to travel continuously for my business purposes; if I'm on a plane, that's some of the very rare stable peace and quiet that I can find for my favorite diversions, namely reading or programming. Every time some marketing geek starts bandying around the idea that their new battery technology will allow us to watch a full movie on a single charge, I have to wonder at people's stupidity.
If that's the whole reason you brought a laptop on that plane, you would be much better served to pick up a cheap portable DVD player, and keep your laptop in its case, or rediscover what people used to do before laptops: read. When you pull out that DVD player, or your laptop, for that matter, pretty soon the people next to you start getting nosy. Then they start getting intrusive, because you have presented them with a topic of discussion. Pretty soon, you're having conversations, and that treasured, sacred peace and quiet is shattered with forced contact with other people on the plane.
Call me a snob, but my first response to someone on a plane talking to me is to start methodically weighing the legal consequences of chucking them out the nearest emergency exit.
Fuel Cells appear in Cars this year (Score:4, Interesting)
Laptops are nice, but I'm not choking to death on laptop fumes. Auto's first.
standard format, please!!! (Score:3, Insightful)
"overhyped laptop fuel cells" (Score:5, Insightful)
I predict that the first and best market for small fuel cells, and where the technology will incubate until it is ready to spread wider, is in hand tools for construction workers (e.g. house framers). They already use tools that chew through multiple battery packs in a workday. They also already have tools (nailers) that are both battery powered and have small fuel tanks that are used to generate small explosions. They are ready and willing to deal with fuel cells that might be noisy, hot, smelly, and perhaps even slightly dangerous. I'm sure they would welcome a tool that chewed through cheapy single-use methanol tanks, rather than having to carefully rotate through an assortment of battery packs every day, sometimes at a site without electrical service.
Consumables! (Score:3, Insightful)
In the long run, you'll spend much more on refills than on the original hardware, but the initial purchase will seem cheap.
Terminator 3 Nonsense (Score:3, Insightful)
crappy Terminator movie? Recap: cyborg Ahhnold
(Republican!) throws his "fuel cell" out the car
window and as he drives away, it causes a massive
nukular (Republican spelling) explosion in the
desert.
I remember seeing that and thinking of how
screwed up it was to see a republican cyborg
driving a gas-guzzler and trying to scare America
away from cleaner energy sources. That movie is
the only contact most Americans will have with
fuel cells, and they blew it (literally) for
decades to come, I imagine...
Judging from the response of the Slashdotters so
far, I'd say the collective brain damage was
pretty severe!!
Re:Big Improvements (Score:2)
Re:fp (Score:3, Interesting)
Something I found of interesting on the japan version of the Toshiba website: World's First Small Form Factor Direct Methanol Fuel Cell for Portable PCs [toshiba.co.jp]... this was a press release from March 5, 2003
It says that the current prototype can operate for approximately five hours on 50cc of high concentration methanol with an average 12 watts of output with a max of 20 watts. They have the aim of product commercialization within 2004.
They mention that part of the problem is that the optimum methanol/water ra
Re:fp (Score:3, Interesting)
The power supply to my lame 486 laptop is rated at 20watts. I don't know it's actual consumption, but keep in mind that that it has to charge the onboard battery as well. The same laptop has roughly 15 AA sized cells. I believe each cell was rated for 600ma, so roughly 10.8 watt to 13.5 watt depending on whether they were 1.2v or 1.5v.
12 watts sounds reasonable to me.
Re:What about the exhaust? (Score:2)
Re:Yeah and thats going to get thru airport securi (Score:2)
Totally offtopic but before spouting off about airport security you might want to actually look up what you are allowed to having in your carry on bag. It may surprise you as to how wrong you are.
http://www.tsa.gov/public/interweb/assetlibrary
Exageration for the sake of humor is ok, but at least have your exagerations be based somewhat on facts.