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GTK+ TTY Port 277

Posted by michael
from the curses-foiled-again dept.
An anonymous reader writes: "FootNotes is reporting about what might be the coolest thing since textmode Quake: a curses-based GTK-2.0 port called Cursed GTK. This not only makes it possible to give Gnome the look and feel of Contiki, but also brings many real opportunities, such as remote logins where X forwarding is not possible, or remote logins over very slow modem lines. Screenshots here, here, here and here! Patches for bugs are welcomed by the authors."
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GTK+ TTY Port

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  • But? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 26, 2003 @05:37PM (#6799738)
    How I'm supposed to run gimp with this thing?
    • Re:But? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by DashEvil (645963) on Tuesday August 26, 2003 @06:36PM (#6800220)
      Yeah, that's a really good question, actually. Not just for GIMP though, but how HARD is it to compile any GTK2 app with this? I'm very interested in it. A lot of the trolls are sitting here bashing it as useless, but they don't realize the fundamental power that comes with flexability; the ability to use any GTK2 program ( which is a lot ) at the console through ssh is a great benefit.
    • Re:But? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Wolfrider (856) <kingneutron@y a h o o . com> on Tuesday August 26, 2003 @10:51PM (#6801800) Homepage Journal
      --Ever heard of aalib?
    • run gimp-console! (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      "gimp-console" is console based app thats not gtk dependent useful for running script-fu and other scripts, this should make "gimp" start faster since it would not be needed to start all the plugins as they would handled by gimp-console. you can a see a mention about it here [berkeley.edu] also see ftcameron's [bloke.com] flamingtext [flamingtext.com] and cooltext [cooltext.com] have been using "gimp --console" from a very long time.
  • april fools? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by DarkAurora (324657) on Tuesday August 26, 2003 @05:39PM (#6799749)
    Wasn't a similar thing with Qt an April fools joke a few months back?
    • by Turmio (29215) on Tuesday August 26, 2003 @06:15PM (#6800047) Homepage
      Actually yes there was: http://qtconsole.nl.linux.org/ [linux.org]. Pretty amusing thing. I wonder if this wicked mind got inspiration from that joke.
    • Re:april fools? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Bingo Foo (179380)
      It was one of only a few April Fool's jokes that took me in, too. It makes sense and has such obvious utility, there was very little "joke" about it except the fact that it was false. It would be as if AOL Time Warner announced that they are splitting off their AOL holdings and renaming themselves "Time Warner." Ha Ha, April Fool? No, it makes perfect sense, but it's just not true. I keep hoping that Trolltech will resurrect this idea for real, sort of like Perl and Parrot.
    • It's well known that if something is announced as an April Fool's joke, it's likely to be implemented a few years later. The only example that comes to mind is the 16-bit instruction set for the ARM processor, announced as 'Thumb'; but I know there have been others.
  • Forgot (Score:5, Insightful)

    by brokencomputer (695672) on Tuesday August 26, 2003 @05:40PM (#6799769) Homepage Journal
    You forgot to mention how great this will be for slow computers with low ram. I can't wait to try this out on my P1!
  • Wow. (Score:5, Funny)

    by schon (31600) on Tuesday August 26, 2003 @05:40PM (#6799770)
    Wow.

    Here I was thinking that it was utterly impossible to make the GTK file dialogue worse than it already was.

    Zemljanka, I bow before you in humility!
    • Re:Wow. (Score:4, Funny)

      by JohnFluxx (413620) on Tuesday August 26, 2003 @06:01PM (#6799955)
      I know they were trying to make gtk faster, but this is ridiculous!

    • by twitter (104583)
      you say:

      Here I was thinking that it was utterly impossible to make the GTK file dialogue worse than it already was.

      I have to ask what you think is wrong with it. It's got a nice little tree, tab completion, multiple M$ style shift key first to last list and CTRL key for individual inclusion, tab completion and three obvious, text labled buttons for rational tasks, rename delete and directory creation. It's fast and does what it should, what more can you ask for? I kicks M$ ass, and works on devices sm

      • Re:well, (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Rysc (136391)
        The GTK file dialog is bad for several reasons.

        Number one, shortcut navigation buttons do not exist. Typing ~/ only might take me to my home directory, it also might select the current directory (this seems to vary). A button would go a long way. An extra button for /tmp would not go amiss.

        A related problem is that the "location" pulldown does not allow typing. I must type full paths rather than modifying existing ones. Yes I could use relative paths in the input box, but this is hardly intuitive for the
      • by schon (31600)
        I have to ask what you think is wrong with it.

        Fair enough. It's too basic.

        I pretty much only use it for Gimp. Here's the biggest beef:

        It has no method to quickly navigate directories. Depending on what I'm editing (print-quality photos, web graphics, the family album, etc) I'd like to quickly switch between directories. Now, what happens:

        I load Gimp, open the file dialog, navigate to my images directory (slow, even with command-completion), then load the image. After editing, I want to save the re
        • by twitter (104583) on Wednesday August 27, 2003 @12:29AM (#6802320) Homepage Journal
          I do lots of photo work on my machines and free software kicks ass. The problems you have is the use of the wrong tool for the job. The GTK open file dialog is made for simple file retrieval. What you are doing is batch work. Getting around that problem is easy. You describe your beef this way:

          It has no method to quickly navigate directories. Depending on what I'm editing (print-quality photos, web graphics, the family album, etc) I'd like to quickly switch between directories. Now, what happens: I load Gimp, open the file dialog, navigate to my images directory (slow, even with command-completion), then load the image. After editing, I want to save the resulting image to another folder, so I then go back to the file dialoge, and do the same damn thing again.

          First, use multiple instances of your programs and real file browsers to drag and drop. This is the easiest step of all. Run multiple coppies of GIMP, each from a shell in the directory you want to work. This way, the dialog box will be defaulted to where you want to be. Next, use the drag and drop capabilities of GMC, Nautulis or KDE's file browser. If you try to use bookmarks, you will quickly be overwhelmed by too many of them. Depending on what window manager you are using, one or more of these should work. SSH X11 forwarding currenly works to move clipboard contents accross different computers on a network, I'll bet it can or will soon be able to drag and drop files the same way. How's that for spanning directories fast? Use multiple file viewers, of course, for place keeping as well as multiple versions spawns of GIMP.

          Next, try more appropriate programs for viewing and batch manipulation. Eye of Gnome and Gqview are excellent programs for viewing and moving multiple files. For batch manipulation, use Image Magic's convert utility. It's a front end to lower level utilities that resample, rotate, convert file types and more. "man convert" is informative and contains examples of usefull stuff. Use igal to make quicky web pages. Between that and a simple shell script to feed multiple directories, your days of waiting for dialogs are over. You won't get around the time your computer takes to manipulate the images, but you will save loads of clicky clicky GIMP time.

          Right rotates are a typical example. I use gqview to select and move all picutes that need to be rotated right and left to seperate directories. The CTRL key selections also work in gqview's thumbnail screen. Selecting them is as easy as looking hoding the ctrl key and a mouse button. Moving them is as eay as right clicking the mouse, selecting "move" from the pulldown menu and creating the new directory withing the directory you are in. You did remember to start gqview from a shell in the directory with pictures to manipulate? That way the right directory will always be the default. Next I run the following script to rotate all those pictures:

          count=1
          while [ -n "$*" ]
          do
          convert -rotate 90 $1 $1
          shift
          count=`expr $count + 1`
          done

          I named it "rr" issuing ~/home/me/bin/rr dir_1 dir_2 dir_3 does the directories. Other common convert commands can be substituted for each and every batch job you may have.

          A similar script can be used to call igal for many directories and thus generate thumbnails, an index and an html page for eveery photo in every directory listed.

          Happy editing and don't try the above in windoze!

        • I liked the AmigaOS style asl.library / arq.library..
          A system library which contained the standard file requester, most system-friendly apps used the library, there were different versions of the library depending on wether you wanted speed, flexibility, low memory usage, pretty graphics etc, and your apps used whichever version you had installed... If you didnt like the default, you could always go and install a third party version.
          And thus we have a modular system, which promotes freedom of choice, while
      • I have to ask what you think is wrong with it. It's got a nice little tree, tab completion, multiple M$ style shift key first to last list

        I was going to ask what dialogue you were talking about, because the GTK FileOpen box I know of is nothing like what you describe.

        However now I see that the latest GTK has a halfway decent box, nothing like the piece of trash installed with Redhat 9 for example.
  • Okay but (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Rosco P. Coltrane (209368) on Tuesday August 26, 2003 @05:43PM (#6799801)
    I realize this is all about geekiness factor, but how do they handle these :

    - Widget alignments when whatever widgets you align don't fall exactly on their equivalent ascii places?

    - GDK pixmaps : do they use AAlib to render them?

    Alright, I'm off to recompile X-Chat. If it actually turns out good in ascii, nobody will be able to give me crap on IRC because I don't use 1337 BitchX :-)
    • Re:Okay but (Score:4, Informative)

      by multi io (640409) <olaf.klischat@googlemail.com> on Tuesday August 26, 2003 @06:00PM (#6799944)
      GDK pixmaps

      Judging from the screenshots, those just don't get rendered at all. Generally, the mapping algorithm to character cells seems to be quite smart though...

      • If you look at the screebshots it's not AAlib at all. Looks like svgalib actually.

        I'm not sure how this is an advance... it looks crapper than X but you have to configure the notoriously buggy svgalib first...
    • Re:Okay but (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      xchat already comes with a text-mode interface (`which xchat-text`). Now perhaps they'll give you crap for not knowing about that.
    • Re:Okay but (Score:5, Informative)

      by uhoreg (583723) on Tuesday August 26, 2003 @11:32PM (#6802037) Homepage
      Widget alignments when whatever widgets you align don't fall exactly on their equivalent ascii places?
      GTK uses a container model for widget placements (i.e. you put the widgets in containers, and everything gets auto-sized based on the contents). The placement of widgets isn't pixel-based. So this isn't an issue, at least in properly written GTK programs.
      Alright, I'm off to recompile X-Chat.
      Cursed GTK uses LD_PRELOAD, so there's no recompilation needed. Unless the program is statically linked, of course.
  • Finally! (Score:5, Funny)

    by phraktyl (92649) * <wyatt&draggoo,com> on Tuesday August 26, 2003 @05:43PM (#6799807) Homepage Journal
    I won't have to bring up X to edit photos in the Gimp!
    • Re:Finally! (Score:5, Funny)

      by Rosco P. Coltrane (209368) on Tuesday August 26, 2003 @05:51PM (#6799882)
      I won't have to bring up X to edit photos in the Gimp!

      Even better : use a TTS with that and you've got gimp for the blind :

      Tool-Eraser-Star-Transparency-Minus-Minus-Minus- Pl us-Minus-Minus-Minus-PipeSign-ColorRed-ColorRed-Co lorRed-ColorRed-ColorRed-ColorRed-ColorRed-ColorRe d...
      • by twitter (104583) on Tuesday August 26, 2003 @10:17PM (#6801569) Homepage Journal
        I won't have to bring up X to edit photos in the Gimp! Even better : use a TTS with that and you've got gimp for the blind :

        Considering the fact that the interface is all text, TTS would be nice for blind people. On X start up, depending on what XDM is used, you would get something like, "My box, login, name, password, Using every normal program, email client (Balsa), web browser (Galleon) would all be much easier, especially with tool tips enabled. Compare that to Microsoft's Accesability options! Rock on GNOME!

  • Turbo Pascal (Score:3, Interesting)

    by khrtt (701691) on Tuesday August 26, 2003 @05:44PM (#6799812)
    The screenshots look awful like the good old Turbo Pascal (circa 1990 or so) text-mode GUI library. Which was a fine library, at least IMHO. However, does the word, ahem, "creative" mean anything anymore?
    • by samjam (256347)
      Yeah; When Delphi 1 came out we were dissapointed to find out it could do not much with all our old turbo-vision applications; we hoped they would be windows-ised.

      Well now we can text-ize many!

      Cheers, kudos and karma to those who did it!

      Huzzah!

      Sam
    • All text mode non-command interfaces look pretty much alike. Think about it; how much room do you have to play around with when you have only 255 characters in a fixed font, and only 80x25 places to put them?
    • The screenshots look awful like the good old Turbo Pascal (circa 1990 or so) text-mode GUI library.

      It uses ncurses, which originated in 1982 [his.com].

    • I thought the tubroPascal (and turboC++, which my school still uses, and i like) had a very good GUI... Since the code was GPLed (turbovision) why hasn't someone made a linux gui that uses it?!
  • cool! (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Dreadlord (671979)
    Wow, being able to do remote-desktop over slow connections sounds cool, I'm having a lot of trouble using vnc [sourceforge.net] over modem to fix mom's pc every time :P
  • Shameless Plug (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Jennifer E. Elaan (463827) on Tuesday August 26, 2003 @05:47PM (#6799840) Homepage
    Ooh, more TTY stuff. I love stuff that runs on a TTY. aalib rocks. I have mplayer set up for movies, I have the original port for Quake 1... I run links [mff.cuni.cz] for webbrowsing. I use centericq [konst.org.ua] for my chat.

    Even better, I wrote [nanosoft.ca] aavga2 to run Quake2 on aalib!

    Now that Gtk+ is moving to TTY as well, maybe I can get rid of X entirely? *grin*

  • by unfortunateson (527551) on Tuesday August 26, 2003 @05:50PM (#6799872) Journal
    Back in the minicomputer days, WordPerfect corporation created a reasonable port of WP onto the VAX/VMS environment. It supported a number of terminals, many of which were text-only.

    Mind you, this was in the days of DOS WordPerfect dominance, WPWin was relatively new.

    But the coolest thing was graphics mode for non-graphics terminals. They abused the font download capabilities of the VT220-series terminals that were the standard for the day to create 'mosaics'. Decent pictures of bitmaps could be created. I could recognize B&W bitmaps pretty well. Lousy for pr0n, but good enough that a letter-writing system we set up had recognizable signatures.
  • by llouver (579855) on Tuesday August 26, 2003 @05:53PM (#6799895)
    For a character base port of javax/swing...

    see charva: http://www.pitman.co.za/projects/charva/ [pitman.co.za]
    screenshot: http://www.pitman.co.za/projects/charva/images/cha rva1.png [pitman.co.za]
  • by Samir Gupta (623651) on Tuesday August 26, 2003 @06:00PM (#6799941) Homepage
    Borland had something like this in their DOS-based IDEs (Borland C++, Turbo Pascal, etc) back in the 80s.

    Very cool for the time, supported dragging, resizing, iconifying windows, even pseudo 3-D buttons and "shadows" underneath windows.
  • April Fools! (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Sonicated (515345)

    This was actually an April Fools [slashdot.org] some time ago, but with QT.
  • Hello! (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 26, 2003 @06:05PM (#6799985)
    1992 called, and they want their GUI back!
  • by Boone^ (151057)
    This looks like VNC that's been merged with screen. screen was a great text-based virtual login back in the day, and is still useful when latency is too high for VNC. However, it's still a pain to use. :)

    With GTK++ TTY mode, you could have a virtual text-based desktop capable of controlling (via mouse) any thing you'd want without opening many virtual screens.
    • Screen is also cool when your connection keeps dropping cos your logged in session with all your work sticks around.

      Plus you can logout and come back later.

      And yes, being able to switch to another screen while a load of output whizzes by (as you said) is also cool.

      Sam
  • by rf0 (159958)
    Am I the only one who think it looks like Xtree gold on DOS?

    Rus
  • Wonderful (Score:5, Funny)

    by AntEater (16627) on Tuesday August 26, 2003 @06:18PM (#6800069) Homepage
    Now I can have a text mode file dialog that loses my default file name too.

    • Seriously, what is the status of the GTK file dialog? It is soo... bad. The best part is when Java made a swing version of it. Not sure what they were thinking.
  • by spir0 (319821) on Tuesday August 26, 2003 @06:19PM (#6800080) Homepage Journal
    this will make system maintenance across ssh so much easier for chumps who don't know how to use CLI commands.

    hell, even I'd use it :)
  • Eye Candy (Score:5, Insightful)

    by femto (459605) on Tuesday August 26, 2003 @06:24PM (#6800119) Homepage
    Those screen shots actually look quite usable. (Well, no worse than the original versions of 'Turbo C'.)

    It's interesting that once the flashy grapics is stripped away, today's user interface looks (and functions?) basically the same as yesterdays. Perhaps much of what we call 'advances in user interface' is just eye candy, or am I being deceived by appearances?

    • Or, maybe not all of the advances to UI tech is visual? There's much more to interfaces than what you see. The rules behind where you put things amd being able to exploit the objectiveness of widgets to create new ones are two of the most advanced ideas of ui technology in my opinion. Also, i18n, l10n, and section 508 concepts are making their way into interface design more and more, that's not necessarily a visual upgrade.

      I think the problem with most people is that "advances in user interface" means o
      • Re:Eye Candy (Score:5, Insightful)

        by swillden (191260) * <shawn-ds@willden.org> on Tuesday August 26, 2003 @07:00PM (#6800390) Homepage Journal

        Or, maybe not all of the advances to UI tech is visual? There's much more to interfaces than what you see. The rules behind where you put things amd being able to exploit the objectiveness of widgets to create new ones are two of the most advanced ideas of ui technology in my opinion.

        Google for TurboVision, the UI toolset Borland created in the process of building their text-based IDEs. One of the nicest, most object-oriented UI toolkits I've used... and a very nice tool for creating applications quickly. I think Borland released it as public domain, or under a permissive license, so you can find the source code on the net in quite a few places.

        The complete C++ toolkit source is around 250KB, zipped.

        Also, i18n, l10n, and section 508 concepts are making their way into interface design more and more, that's not necessarily a visual upgrade.

        TurboVision had great support for internationalization as well. Granted, it was really only workable for languages that used a latin character set, but that was more of a platform limitation.

        So, I'd say the other poster had it right: Most of the changes have been eye candy. Not that there's anything wrong with eye candy, I like my nice proportional, anti-aliased fonts and my pretty icons and rounded "lickable" controls, but, at bottom, the desktop metaphor hasn't changed much in the last 30 years.

    • Re:Eye Candy (Score:2, Insightful)

      by zsau (266209)
      It's interesting that once the flashy grapics is stripped away, today's user interface looks (and functions?) basically the same as yesterdays. Perhaps much of what we call 'advances in user interface' is just eye candy, or am I being deceived by appearances?

      No, that's more or less right. Back in the 80s there were more advanced user interfaces than today. It's quite a pity Microsoft and Macintosh had to win out.
    • So quickly people forget, in a world where the main application for computers is email and web browsing, that the biggest driver behind Apple's original Mac GUI, one which I still think is valid today, was WYSIWYG. Remember that one of the key functions of business computers used to be document editing and printing. Macs were created to let you produce nice, well laid out documents, preview them on screen, then print them out on your laserwriter.

      That's what drove people away from the text based interfaces
  • very cool (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Atilla (64444) on Tuesday August 26, 2003 @06:26PM (#6800133) Homepage
    this is very handy, alhough I wonder how well it scales beyond 25x80...

    this could also be very useful as a standalone X-less toolkit (a la Qt Embedded). RedHat (and some other distros) could really use a cleaner console widget toolkit... The one they use now (for system tools, etc) works like crap.

    OTOH, I wonder what kind of resources it uses.

    hmmm might have to try this out.
  • by romi (80701) on Tuesday August 26, 2003 @06:28PM (#6800156)
    This isn't going to be of much use unless app developers of common gtk apps actually test it - it may work fine for the Gtk demo app but (speaking from experience as a developer at a mid-size company that ships a GTK UI) real GTK apps often abuse GTK to get around window manager incompatibilities, resize and widget placement restrictions, etc., and developers, OSS or otherwise, aren't going to verify that their crazy hacks actually work on the TTY port. This is exactly why the Windows GTK port sucks in real life even though in theory it should work just like GTK on X.
  • bug reports? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by selfabuse (681350)
    >Important note: Patches are welcome! Bugreports without patches send directly to /dev/null :)

    What's the deal with that? If you find a bug, and you can't write code, they don't even want to know the bug exists?
    • Re:bug reports? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by rusty0101 (565565)
      In almost every case where I have seen this disclaimer, the reason is that the developers are often much more aware of the bugs people are running into than the person who gives it a try. It's on their "to be fixed" list, and they will get to it when they have the opportunity.

      This is not expected to be used in a production environment yet, so they don't need a couple hundred people reporting to them that right clicking on the [V] indicator closes the window when the user expects it to bring up a menu.

      One
  • by axxackall (579006) on Tuesday August 26, 2003 @07:12PM (#6800473) Homepage Journal
    Should it be called TUI (TTY-based UI) or CUI (Curses-bases UI, or CLI-based UI)? And how about CWM, CLI-based Window Manager?

    On a serious note, is it GPM sensitive?

    • Yes. You can even move the "windows" around the screen. But try it on console, not on a terminal emulator. It will start selecting text and not move it. But you can click on the widgets, as expected.
  • Now would the wxWindows GTK port link with this? If so then I could bring all my wxWindows apps to terminal access... that would actually be quite usefull, all those little utils I wrote from any system I control...

    Just a sec, I have a text terminal that I was working on a few days back... I suddenly have an urge to redouble my efforts on that. Heh.

    And for those who are complaining about how this is a total waste of time, and this person could have been more productive elsewise: You didn't pay them to do
  • by David_W (35680)

    Does it support themes? :)

  • by hey (83763)
    I wonder if it works with wxWindows and
    in particular with wxPythonGTK which I'm into
    these days. If so it would be pretty cool to
    have the same application work on MS Windows, regular GTK and TTY GTK.
  • Man I miss the ASCII days :) I used to hack at Maximus, Gecho, and Frontdoor to get my system to look really cool over a modem before the internet came along and changed things. Though it was interesting to see some of my friends try to exist in the same manner through TCPIP instead of a dialup session to someones computer. I rather just moved on to HTML and did cool things there though I never got as serious about it as I was with BBS software when I was a kid.
  • by Quass (320289)
    Hey... I've never really heard of this aalib stuff before, and I followed a bunch of links to a site for MPlayer, and it was playing DVD's in ascii...

    Is there any players for win32 that will play using the aalib codec?? I would love to see this in action, but don't have linux installed on my laptop!

    Help??
  • I find this exciting for quite a specific reason: cut and paste within the comand line. I like to run framebuffer rather than X because my machine is quite old (k6 with 256MB) and I still don't think X has evolved to be command-key friendly enough yet (although the recent releases of gnome are very close). When I use my computer, it tends to be an exercise in managing multiple command lines rather than running any windowy applications beyond firebird.

    Anyway - the problem I have with the framebuffer is a la
  • I agree that text-mode can be very handy in some circumstances, but I think that more research should be devoted to improve X. I was a mlview-dxpc supporter and now I use NX, that has superseded the old project (http://www.nomachine.com). I can run GNOME from home, connected to my computer at office through an old 28.8 pcmcia modem. Here are some statistics:

    1019 B/s average, 1966 B/s 5s, 1050 B/s 30s, 2954 B/s maximum.

    NX Compression Summary

    link: MODEM with protocol compression enabled.

    images:
    • NX is a free client+commercial server. [...] The compression and X stuff are GPL while some parts are closed source. I don't care much, as the alternative would be MS+Citrix.

      Just to clarify, do everything on the command line using the GPLed stuff, running a remote GUI session over a modem. It's only the GUI interface to this functionality which is non-free.
  • Font AA? (Score:3, Funny)

    by Chupa (17993) on Wednesday August 27, 2003 @12:04AM (#6802201)
    Yeah, but can I get font antialiasing with that? :)
    • Of course you can get antialiased fonts, as long as you use Gnome Terminal ... running on X. On an entirely unrelated note, one should be able to run any GTK+ 2 app inside a Gnome terminal, inside another terminal. It may be nestable as deep as one wants, like with Xnest or VNC.
  • WHAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING ABOUT TEXTMODE QUAKE^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HCURSED GTK

    "people are starving to death in this world... and somebody had time for this....."

    "This is the greatest *sniff* I'm too broken up...I can't believe how wonderful this is. I can't stop the tears streaming down my face. Oh the humanity!!"

    "This is seriously, extremely perverse. I'm impressed."

    "This is quite possibly the most inherently wrong thing in the world today."

    "I can now die. This totally, totally, totally rules."

    "I would need
  • by JimPooley (150814)
    This is like the dog walking on its hind legs.

    It's not that it's done well,
    It's that it's done at all.

    Except far less entertaining...

I never cheated an honest man, only rascals. They wanted something for nothing. I gave them nothing for something. -- Joseph "Yellow Kid" Weil

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