Isn't It Ironic? 683
gessel writes "Have you ever used the word "ironic?" Do you know what it really means? If not, is that ironic? Was Seinfeld's "irony" really the cause of the utter collapse of civil society as we knew it? How ironic was it for the CEO of MTV to declare irony a victim of 9/11? The Guardian is running a brilliant article that clears the confusion around a culturally critical and chronically misused word."
Ask Alanis (Score:4, Informative)
Next week: proper use of "AKA" (Score:3, Informative)
Example:
There are some OSes out there that really suck... AKA Windows 95
Or worse yet:
Man I'm tired from all of that work, AKA I partied all night.
Ugh.
Re:alanis. (Score:0, Informative)
Thanks. I feel better now.
Re:Horrible story (Score:2, Informative)
Sometimes it is done unintentially, othertimes it is done in the hopes of getting a product name out there ("I googled for it...", "Want a coke?" when you actually mean any generic soda, etc...) and other times it is done for the sake of brevity.
Irregardless of the motivation, the language evolves and eventually it becomes accepted enough and then it gets put into the dictionaries.
I had an interesting discussion with the folks at m-w.com about how that actually works. Pretty interesting stuff.
*shrug* That is how it works, so deal with it.
p.s. I used irregardless just to piss some people off.
Re:alanis. (Score:3, Informative)
The True Irony of Alanis Morissette [mellowfellow.com]
Alanis Morissette sings a song titled "Ironic" on her album Jagged Little Pill. In this song she offers vignettes of situations where life is going well and then suddenly takes a turn for the worse. She exclaims, "Isn't it ironic...don't you think?" My answer: "No!" I have critically analyzed her lyrics and have found only 1 ironic episode therein. Ultimately I have discovered that she has no clue as to what irony really is.
That song always bothered me and I found this site really comforting that it bothered someone else enough to take the trouble to dissect it for everyone.
Re:Obligatory Blackadder reference (Score:5, Informative)
Check the Websters Unabridged Dictionary definition here [reference.com].
Go figure.
Re:South Park episode display classic irony (Score:4, Informative)
Sarcasm 1 : a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain
2 a : a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual b : the use or language of sarcasm
Is that clear enough for you, Einstein?
No, that is not ironic, (Score:1, Informative)
This is not ironic. It is simply contrary to expectations. If, however, you dressed warmly in expectation of snow, and then dropped dead of heatstroke, that would be ironic.
George Carlin quote (Score:5, Informative)
That's not irony Alanis! (Score:3, Informative)
A free ride when you already paid?
That's not irony that's just being an idiot.
Rain on your wedding day?
Oh yes look at the levels of irony in that one. No wait, it's just 'bad luck'.
Good advice that you just can't take?
Puhlease....
Re:Oh my god... (Score:5, Informative)
Why can't we once in a while have an interesting non-tech article here without getting hundreds of comments that do nothing but expressing their boredom?
Well, typically on a site that offers "news for nerds" and "stuff that matters" we expect
1) Some of column A (news) or2) Some of column B (pertinent stuff)
Most people have gotten lazy and sloppy and only peruse /. for the cutting-edge (sorta) news, so they forget that it's important to teach geeks to use the language [English] properly. On that note, this discussion isn't exactly new--the linked article focuses heavily on post-01/11/09 misuses, but there's a couple [everything2.com] of [everything2.com] great writeups at e2 [everything2.com] that address this same point quite well. If you're looking to hone verbal skills, lurk and read there for a while -- it's an educational experience.
Re:So, is this at all ironic? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Obligatory Blackadder reference (Score:3, Informative)
Similarly, the French have l'Académie française [academie-francaise.fr], responsible for the French lexicon since Louis XIII. Of course, in other parts of the world, the language is butchered mercilessly. In parts of Québec and in northern Ontario, I have heard phrases like (overheard this one in a bar)
Presumably, the fellow had found a lighter...
The introduction of English words into the French language in Québec prompted the provincial government many years ago to establish a 'language police' (the Office québécois de la langue française [gouv.qc.ca]), charged with ensuring that product labels and outdoor signage in the province have appropriate French content. It's a losing battle, but it's amusing to watch the fight, sometimes.
Preface to "Mere Christianity"? (Score:4, Informative)
I remember reading a rant by C.S. Lewis describing this very thing...
That sounds like this one here [mit.edu] (about three-quarters of the way down the page).
Re:Isn't it Alanic? (Score:3, Informative)
I remember that!
I believe it was Ed Byrne [chortle.co.uk]. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Re:George Carlin quote (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Oh the humanity....... (Score:4, Informative)
No, your English teacher was entirely right. First of all, if you use the word "forte" when speaking of your strengths in casual conversation, you will sound like a pompous asshole. Secondly, when not only say it, but also pronounce it incorrectly, you sound like a poorly-educated pompous asshole.
When "forte" is pronounced "for-tay," it is Italian for "loud."
When "forte" is pronounced "fort" it is French for "strength."
While they are spelled the same, they are two completely different words, from two different languages. Neither is an English word, and it should be put in italics when inserted into a written English sentence.
Re:Oh the humanity....... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:alanis. (Score:3, Informative)
The general consensus before the war was, "there are probably some, but probably not a lot, and Saddam is a weasel bastard." The general consensus after the war is "there is probably none, possibly some, and Saddam is a weasel bastard." Of course, we can't "take back" back the war, anymore than we can "take back" anything else.
Now, it's time to deal with the facts. We are now a hostile occupier in a country the size of california. American resentment in Iraq before the war was high. It is growing. We're still bombing random vehicle caravans based on dodgy evidence that Saddam might be in one of them. We're still lining up people and shooting them in the head. In short, we "liberated" iraq the same way Germany "liberated" France
And, no... they did not all see the same intelligence. Intelligence communities do not just open their books to each other. The limited US intelligence we allowed the world to see was comical. Blix has called it shit. Even Powell called it shit. If that was the good intelligence, I can't imagine how awful the dodgy stuff we had was.
Re:Oh the humanity....... (Score:1, Informative)
That is a nice definition of rhetorical irony.
However, the example above *is* a case of situational irony.
Re:Oh the humanity....... (Score:2, Informative)
Here's the relevant quote from that:
Languages evolve with usage. Deal with it.
Letter to Ms. Williams (Score:1, Informative)
In Zoe Williams' 6/28 column, The Final Irony, she points out some
cases of alleged irony that are, in fact, not ironic. Most of these are
spot-on, a couple are debatable (but probably not ironic), but there is
one case where she is clearly wrong.
She cites an example where she be[*] holding a party, and expects her
father to come, but he does not. It certainly isn't cosmic irony or
verbal irony. It is, however, probably situational irony. The
expectation is not in accord with what will happen. One may argue that
such an example may or may not be situational irony, but it is certainly
dramatic irony. If we assume that this situation is fictional (and I
think it's easy enough to argue that it is), then it must be dramatic
irony. We, the audience, know something that she (here, a fictional
character) does not.
And if you think that it's not dramatic irony because Ms. Williams is not
fictional, you'd better be prepared to argue that it's not dramatic irony
when Henry V visits his troops in Act IV, Scene 1.
Now, for the question that you really want to hear: is it ironic when
someone misuses the term irony in an article about the correct use of the
term irony? No, it's just wrong. Irony deals with beliefs and actions,
not beliefs and facts. If The Guardian were to publish a letter which
defined irony in a manner inconsistent with Ms. Williams beliefs, that
would be ironic.
But other than that, a good article. And I'm not effecting irony.
[*] Yes, this use of subjunctive is deprecated, but it is right.