Sony's Cashless Smart Card Catching on in Japan 213
Spasemunki writes "The New York Times reports here on the success in Japan of an RF-based, cash replacement smart card developed by Sony. Used primarily by Japan's largest railway company, the cards carry a declining cash balance (no link to your credit card or bank account if it is lost or stolen), and conducts transactions at railway turnstiles in 1/5 of a second. Mass transit remains one of the big areas for many folks where you just can't live without cash- this would be a big improvement over digging in the couch for exact change ... "
Nice... (Score:2, Insightful)
Who needs photocopiers and engravers, when you can just "hack" some funds!
Potential uses... (Score:3, Interesting)
Or will somebody spam your computers with viruses to steal your money then?
Why "RF based/cash replacement? Metrocard (Score:5, Interesting)
The token is dead. Cash is dying. off topic, the dollar is dying, in particular...
Re:Why "RF based/cash replacement? Metrocard (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Why "RF based/cash replacement? Metrocard (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Why "RF based/cash replacement? Metrocard (Score:5, Informative)
Smart cards--like DC Metro's Smarttrip--are far cooler. You don't need to swipe them--just get them close to the reader. You don't need to take it our of your wallet: just put your wallet up to the reader and that gets it close enough.
Even better, you can register it with Metro and if you lose your card with $100 on it, you just have to pay $5 for a replacement card and you get all the value you had on the card.
In July, they should have Smarttrip readers on all the buses too, so that transfers will be automagic--no need to remember to get a paper transfer from one of those machines that always seems to be out of paper. Bus boarding should speed up dramatically too.
Re:Why "RF based/cash replacement? Metrocard (Score:2)
I'll take the swipes, thanks.
We use RF-based ID cards at work. Just touch it to the sensor to unlock the door
--DM
Cash Will Never Die (Score:2, Interesting)
People have always been using "cash" in one form or another. This is just another form of "cash".
Follow the evolution:
1. People trading goods with one another, i.e. my 5 pounds of butter for your 4 pounds of cheese.
2. People using rare, precious objects, i.e. seashells, precious metals, round stone thingies.
3. People using coins.
4. People using paper money and cheques.
5. People using credit and debit cards.
The smart card is just another debit card, which is just another form of cash. To be truly c
Re:Why "RF based/cash replacement? Metrocard (Score:2)
This is no quantum leap (Score:2, Informative)
News a bit thin today?
Re:This is no quantum leap (Score:1)
Re:This is no quantum leap (Score:3, Informative)
Make no mistake about the Japanese economy, though...it's in the doldrums with no way out. The highest American national debt during the Reagan years was $4 trillion, when Ronnie was emptying the treasury to bury the Commies. The curren
Does this have "big brother" implications? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Does this have "big brother" implications? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Does this have "big brother" implications? (Score:2)
They've used it to disprove people's alibis so far. That seems like a pretty acceptable use, to me. It also seems like they might easily slip into less acceptable uses. I don't even know what that might be, but it makes me nervous.
Re:Does this have "big brother" implications? (Score:2)
A new business in making people anonymous? (Score:2)
Re:A new business in making people anonymous? (Score:1)
Another idea would be a virtual RFID-tag wallet: You store the signature of all your tags in your PDA and zap the original ones. If someone tries to read them, you have the option to authorize access or deny it.
Re:Does this have "big brother" implications? (Score:1)
Re:Does this have "big brother" implications? (Score:2)
Re:Does this have "big brother" implications? (Score:1)
Re:Does this have "big brother" implications? (Score:1)
Octopus in Hong Kong is used for ID (Score:3, Interesting)
I went to a conference [hkiiexpo.com] recently and I was required to register with my Octopus Card to get entry to the conference floor. It was useful because I went back later in the week and of course I had the
Re:Octopus in Hong Kong is used for ID (Score:2)
Thug: McFly, you will bring my ID card to my classes, right?
Victim: Well, Biff, it's not nice to cut --
Thug: Did I ask your opinion? Why else would I sign up for the same classes as you? And oh -- I better get a good grade on that report.
Re:Octopus in Hong Kong is used for ID (Score:2)
The neatest thing of all was when I got thirty and found vending machines that took the same cards. For small transactions, this card was gr
Re:Does this have "big brother" implications? (Score:2)
Re:Does this have "big brother" implications? (Score:2, Interesting)
Finally non secure systems (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Finally non secure systems (Score:2)
Fact of the matter is, nothing is secure in this world. Things can be made secure enough so that there's a major deterrence to hack into it, but there's always a way. I don't just mean pure Internet hacking - ther
Will only work in Japan (Score:2, Insightful)
I think this is one of them.
Japanese citizens seem almost Zenlike in thier capacity to accept such civilised ideas.
By comparison, in much of the rest of the world, this idea won't work simply because of the cultural background.
Re:Will only work in Japan (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Will only work in Japan (Score:2)
The exception being the US, where many people seem to have an abnormal fear of having anyone being able to identify them by other means than fingerprint or dna-sample.
But this would not be connected to your identity in any other way than that it's you who carry the card.
The card has a unique id and can be traced to you if you bought it with you creditcard.
But it is in no way less anonymous than, say, a plastic card with a magnetic strip on the back.
So it might work
Consequences? (Score:2)
I think that preventing abortions through better, safer, and more available birth control are a far better thing than preventing abortions through making them illegal. Abortion has existed for almost as long as female hominids had the smarts enough to figure out that certain plants w
Great idea! (Score:5, Insightful)
If you lose your card and noone else finds it, the money goes to the banks as well!
A win-win situation!
X.
Re:Great idea! (Score:3, Interesting)
First, there's virtually no interest to be collected in Japan regardless. Short rates are practically zero, and barely enough to recoup transaction costs.
Second, let's say the bank actually WAS collecting interest on your cash. Well, what are you going to do with it? You've got two choices: you can bury your money and not let anyone make any interest off it (because you're certainly not using it productively if it's sitting in you
Re:Great idea! (Score:2)
Otcopus Card in Hong Kong (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Otcopus Card in Hong Kong (Score:1)
You can pay all local bus company, all railway system, and all 7-Eleven, all Circle-OK, Supermarket, McDonald's...u name it...with the octopus card. It's a must have for everyone in Hong Kong, not just for train rider.
Implications (Score:4, Funny)
Does this mean that if you get stuck in a revolving door, you go broke quick?
Re:Implications (Score:3, Funny)
"look kids, Big Ben!"
"look kids, Big Ben!"
Belgium : proton (Score:5, Informative)
For the merchants, the advantage is 2fold : no cash in the store so less attractive to thieves, but also there is no permanent connection needed with the bank : the cardreader can store the balance internally, and upload a transaction log at the end of the day. This makes proton payment a lot cheaper for the merchants (payment by visa costs a percentage, and payment by bankcard costs a fixed fee)
Re:Belgium : proton (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, this would be a cool application for that plastic flexible panel display thingy that was on
And yeah, the readers are very suceptible to dirt and other crap. Also the met
Re:Belgium : proton (Score:3, Interesting)
Dave
Re:Belgium : proton (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Belgium : proton (Score:2)
Too bad it leaks information like mad. Check out: http://www.klaphek.nl/nr3/chipcards2.html
Some points from it:
* "All things considered, ChipKnip (proton) is a big improvement - whereas before (with standard ATM Cash machines) only banks could keep track of what the consumer bought from whom and for how much, now ChipKnip enables the mutual spying of both consumer and vendor"
* "Cash Register General
The Wallet Problem (Score:5, Insightful)
Visa and MC work because there's a single standard with multiple providers. Everybody takes Visa, nobody says "Oh, whoa, hey, we don't take the GM Visa, we only take the Wachovia Visa." So there's a massive hurdle to overcome for cash cards to really catch on. You want to make a generic cash card that people can use anywhere. But if you do that, then naturally you will want to fill it with more cash...which, in turn, makes it more risky to lose it, which makes less people want to sponsor them. Note that I don't say "to use them", because I think that people would put $100+ on a cash card and want to use it to go shopping (think of the new "gift cards" that people get for the mall). I said sponsor because once you get beyond a certain amount, if somebody loses it, they're gonna scream and say "I don't care about your policy, I demand you get me my money back."
Know what I mean? What's a good solution that that problem? I suppose the solution is for Visa to sponsor a cash card, which seems like it would be very similar to the whole "debit card" concept that caught on very rapidly once the banks were able to say "Use your checking account money just like Visa."
Re:The Wallet Problem (Score:3, Insightful)
Governments really should get off their asses and implmement these, free of charge. How can they pretend that this type of money isn't a basic service that should be handled by them?
Re:The Wallet Problem (Score:2)
Doesn't solve the basic problem. I'll give you $8 in the public transit account, $6 in the prepaid video rentals account, and $10 in the gambling machine payout voucher account. Now buy something costing $20.
666 (Score:2)
Also, in the '80s, these Fundie paranoiacs believed that the Mark Of The Beast would consist of a tattoed UPC-like symbol
Re:The Wallet Problem (Score:3, Insightful)
If this sort of card system is to be long-term practical, it can't be the wallet. It has to be the key that opens the remote safe, or someone will eventually find out how to put money into the wallet without putting the corresponding bills into the account that backs it up. Yes, I know that slows it down but it's necessary.
That is an Intellectual Property problem (Score:2)
You saw it with CPU's, BIOS, and PC's where the market was seriously fragmented until IBM came out with one that could be coppied witho
Note to Marketers (Score:5, Funny)
Do you want these cashless smart cards to "catch on" in America too? Call them X-treme Cash Cards! Apparently the only way to get people to buy something here is to call it X-treme, Extreme, etc..., and to inform your target market that your product doesn't support terrorists. And while you're at it, give them a few designs to choose from: Avril Lavigne, Goody Mob, Dixie Chicks, and Dale Earnhardt so they can express their individuality (very important).
As soon as these things start getting stolen through violence, the sheeple will line up for their cashless laser tattoo forehead bar codes. I give it five years tops.
Re:Note to Marketers (Score:2, Insightful)
16: He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,
17: so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
Originally I thought this sounded eerily similar to fingerprints and retinal scanners. But I'm just an occultist quack, and an OT one at that.
Re:Note to Marketers (Score:1)
Re:Note to Marketers (Score:2)
Actually nearly every credit card agreement (that small print on the back of your application) limits your liability should your card be stolen and you notify the issuer in a timely manner. Of course, our Republican-controlled Congress is probably one one "donation" away from eliminating this protection.
Re:Note to Marketers (Score:2)
<flame suit on>
I thought you said to say the product didn't support terrorism?
A few comments... (Score:4, Informative)
Japan in general, and the Tokyo area in particular, has had a form of prepaid card for use at train stations for several years. These cards are of the "magnetic stripe" type, and have to be fed through the ticket gate to work. The ticket gates have a tendency to jam occasionally, requiring human intervention to get them working again.
The main advantage of the Suica cards is that they just have to be held against a panel on the ticket gate - as they're RF based, there's no moving parts to get jammed.
The main disadvantage of these particular cards is that they don't offer the same flexibility in routes that the "old" cards have - you have to be travelling between two JR (Japan Rail) stations to be able to use them. I commute on a train that switches from a JR train to a subway train (separate organization - same train) halfway along my route, which means I can't use the Suica cards.
In spite of what the article says, I haven't really noticed them being used for anything other than commuting.
I want one (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I want one - collecting the cash (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I want one - collecting the cash (Score:2)
Suppose they were just up to "mischief" or they had a political agenda (anti-capitalist or a spot of "micro-terrorism"?)
Underground in London (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.transportforlondon.gov.uk/tfl/oyster
Re:Underground in London (Score:1, Informative)
London Underground are also testing this [transportf...don.gov.uk].
Ahh, I ways wondered what the yellow circles were, thanks for the link
Officer, I've been mugged! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Officer, I've been mugged! (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Officer, I've been mugged! (Score:2)
I'm in Japan... (Score:5, Informative)
Transactions are too quick (Score:1)
Can we make the transactions take more time to execute. Id like to have a stripper to be in front of me for several minutes before charges on my account are deducted.
later,
No limit on cash per card? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:No limit on cash per card? (Score:2, Informative)
At
Here too (Score:1)
Hello? (Score:1, Informative)
American Response (Score:1)
It's been around for over a year (Score:2)
Where I live here in Edinburgh, the busses have a similar sort of card (time, not distance based t
Speedpass anyone? (Score:4, Insightful)
I like the idea of speedpass being used at gas and other small place - mcd's, dunkin's - for the most part if I lose it, the money is safe (so they say so far) and what's the worst someone could do - buy a tank of gas, drive for a day then buy another - i'd figure it out by then.
Plus anyone who has a debit card and uses it for purchases AND atms - it wears out about halfway thru it's expiration date from people treating it like a sanding tool at the checkout.
Negroponte told a neat story a few years back - about the ski pass rfid's in switzerland - he went to pull out cash at a small store to buy some chocolate, and was fishing for change and the cashier saw his spent ski pass - he offered to take it for the payment - nn asked why, and the guy said they're worth 5 francs deposit when you turn them back - when pressed, the cashier said he piles them up and pays the bread vendor - the bread vendor piles up piles from the stores he delivers to , one of which was the ski resort, and turns them in en masse!
it was nn's arguement for how micropayments are easier than we think. speedpass isn't exactly micropayments given the price of petrol, but it's close, easy, cheaper for the shop (debit vs credit) and certainly easy for me.
Re:Speedpass anyone? (Score:2)
"What will my billing statement look like?
Purchases made with your Speedpass will be identified by retailer on your billing statement just like purchases made with a physical credit card."
so it looks like (I could be wrong) that speedpass
is just a handy way of using a creditcard like Amazon's one-click checkout. So you leave an audit trail - it's not cash.
that's right (Score:2)
yes there's an audit trail.
a new implementation could change that, but for non-trivial purchases, don't you want that? choose one:
a: "i swear I paid for that - see - it's right here on this statement"
b: "i swear i paid for that - see? it's right here on the record you have that shows that anyone on the planet might have deposited those funds. trust me."
the MYOB argument about who spent what is a juicy libertarian tidbit, but the reality of using money a
Re:Speedpass has the same problem others do (Score:2)
the others could set up their own proprietary systems.
for mobil this is a lioyalty thing, not a technology thing.
it's like ron popeil on the pocket fisherman when someone pointed out it was a sub-par solution - "so? it's not for fishing - it's for buying and giving"
as for the cost - not true in all places - any mobil station (and virtually all mobils are speedpass now) that share a street corner with any other station are competitive - two stati
Re:Speedpass has the same problem others do (Score:2)
The device is simply a token. If a different oil company wants to build a reader for it, all they have to do is buy one off the shelf and then have you walk in once with your speed pass and your credit card details and they can link the two together. You don't need Mobil's permission to do that.
Old news (Score:1, Informative)
There is no personal tracking involved - nobody knows who owns a card (a card might have a unique ID on it, but you don't give any form of identification to buy a card).
Do you yanks ever wonder that perhaps your rabid paranoia about priva
Malaysia has had such a system for years (Score:1, Informative)
Imagine the possibilities (Score:2)
There's something like this in Malaysia too (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.touchngo.com.my/
They can be used for the light rail transport in the capital, highway toll booths (proximity or stick them in a gadget aka smartTAG that allows remote deduction/payment at up to 40kph[1]), a few parking lots and you can reload them at certain bank ATMs.
Of course there are the usual complaints of double deductions etc.
And I wonder about pranksters deducting from cards just for fun (you often don't need to take the card out of your wallet/purse for it to work).
Also wonder if the organized crime syndicates have figured out a way to "make money".
Link.
[1] If the transaction doesn't go through the toll bar doesn't go up, so caution is encouraged
Hong Kong MTR Octopus (Score:2, Informative)
Been there, done that. (Score:2)
the couch? (Score:2)
Yes, especially since you won't need to carry the couch with you on the train.
GO Transit, Richmond Hill Line (Score:3, Interesting)
GO uses a Proof of Payment system -- you buy your tickets, and then "cancel" one ride off a multi-ride ticket before you get on the train, and you have to prove to the inspector, if she checks, that you have purchased and cancelled your tickets.
The Smart Card system that GO uses is great -- it can store up to 255 pre-paid rides and 2 monthly passes (ie, one for this month and one for next month). To cancel your ride, you don't even need to take it out of you wallet -- just hold the wallet up to the card reader. The machines work far faster and with much less downtime than the old style of "punching your tickets" ride cancellers. Even providing proof of payment is as simple as letting the inspector scan your card with a handheld card reader.
It's a great system and I hope they replace the old system on the other lines soon.
In Post-Soviet Estonia... (Score:2, Interesting)
Not a new idea (Score:2)
The Ontario EDCO newsletter had a list of transit systems [edco.on.ca] using smart cards (issue dated February,2000).
What about security? (Score:2)
I'm not saying there aren't solutions to this problem, I'm just curious what solution in particular they are planning on using.
dan.
The name of the card? Paystation. (Score:2)
Singapore has done this for a while (Score:2)
Finland (Score:2, Interesting)
We've had those smart cards in use in Finland for many years now. Most are city-specific, so you can't use them outside that particular city they are for. The uses for those smartcards are in electrical identification, so you don't need usernames and passwords, only a card and a pin number (and a cardreader), and mass transportation. You can also pay your purchases in some shops with those cards. Some can be read from a distance, so you don't have to take them o
London Underground (Score:2)
BTDT (Score:2)
Cash cards in Europe (Score:2, Interesting)
Moscow subway : RF cards since 1998 (Score:2, Interesting)
They say one guy was hiding RF card uner his cap, and then amazed controller ladies by taking a bow in front of sensor. Of course it worked and it'd let him through
Japanese Punnery and Suica (Score:3, Informative)
From another web site:
"Suica stands for Super Urban Intelligent Card, which has the double meaning of being an IC card that makes traveling smooth (sui-sui in Japanese)."
What they leave out though, is that the cards are a green and white colour, that of a Japanese watermelon, known as, wait for it... Suica!
My experience with the Suica Card (Score:3, Informative)
Once a month I renew my travel pass by placing the card in the machine in the station. The touch screen UI is quite sophisticated allowing you decide when the pass will start and giving you the choice of whether you need a reciept or not so that you can claim the cost on your expenses.
The best feature is that you can also "charge" the card with money and use it as a travel card outside of your normal route. i.e. If you pass for the journey between B to C and one day have to take the train from A to D i.e A-B-C-D it will deduct the charge for the A-B and C-D sections and not charge you for B-C which is covered by your pass.
Every station has notebook PC in the office where the station staff can take the card and look at it if there was a problem. During the first week of introduction there were a few glitches and the stationmaster reset the "bad" count on my card after my card prevented me from getting out of the station thinking that I had jumped the gate at the previous station.
Recently while playing with the machine in the station I found that it can give you a printout of your last 50 journies which could cause privacy concerns for some people.
should be after conquering the Iraq (Score:1)